The Fate of the EU decided

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's great. If you're a good writer, they won't sound like someone's fanfiction when reading them. But a fan-writer is forgiven if they do---someone adding a piece to a large canon needs to do better than that. Were you around a few years back when a bunch of us read the Son of Suns trilogy? Best Star Wars story I've ever read by a huge margin, canon or no. A fanfic that read like a fantastic novel. And yet it's shmucks like Drew Karpy that get the privilege of adding to canon. It's unfair I tells ya.

I see, thanks.

Yeah it is unfair.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes it was, and that was why it was better. I don't know about you but I don't watch Star Wars for the "wicked badass sword fights, brah!" I watch it because I love forgetting that I'm watching something fake successfully pretend to be something wonderfully real-feeling.

The highly precise, fast-paced, well-choreographed, utterly bland sword fights in the PT feel fake. Those movies could have done every other elements right (story, characters, pacing, tension etc.) and those sword fights would still feel fake. They're too clean, too smooth, too well done. Real sword fights are frantic, dirty, exhausting, tense, and not composed of perfectly engineered moves swung by people with infinite stamina and an inability to not aim for the other guy's sword.

The same gripes we have about the PT looking too computerized, sterile, and emotionlessly animated apply equally to the sword fights. They lack grit, the lack soul.

Well said. Very eloquent.

Originally posted by Sinious
How could you diss EU? It has so many great eras and characters. Exar Kun, Revan, Sith Triumvirate, Vitiate's Empire, Bane... Are they all gonna be wasted just like that?

I can endure the changes that will be made in the stories occurring during the new movies but pre prequal EU should remain untouched.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT fights appeared cool at first glance. I thought they were f*cking amazing when I first saw them, blew the OT fights clear outta the water.

Then I watched them several dozen times and kept noticing that they never actually seemed to be aiming for each other, just the swords. The flips and twirls look completely ridiculous now. TPM and AotC don't even make the actors look fatigued, just a tad sweaty. They're flashy and "cool" when you don't think about them, but as effective sword fights go, they're lame and boring as shit. The surrounding nadir of characterization and plot urgency just brings 'em down even farther. The PT fights are terrible.

I'm coming into this a bit late, but I think there are some legit explainations for the difference in sword fightiing style.

In IV, V, VI we are watching someone with 0-3 years force experience fighting against a man that is mostly machine, and an 80 YO man that has been in exile for 18 years fighting for the first time in 18 years. Its not going to be a pretty fight. It is more sword fight.

In I, II, III we are seeing the Jedi and Sith at the top of thier games. Jedi practicing Sword Skills and Force skills from the time they are born. Even in real life if you have this, your tatics move from more reserved trying to land a killing blow, to probing defense, and opening the opposing fighter to make a mistake to capitalize on. Swords skill are automatically better. Then add to that the anticipation that is created by "knowing" and using the force, and you get highly stylized fights that look more like a dance then a sword fight... and that is exactly what I would expect by people trained to use a sword for 18-30 years and that have precognition and enhanced human powers.

I will also expect to see VII, VIII, IX will have the same type of fighting, as these people will have been taught to use the force and saber from an early age. Just like the Legacy ahem EU books did. As time goes on Luke, Jacen, Corran... they all become sword fights in the style of the prequils because their fighting skills progress and thier force talents progress.

Now if you want to argue why Vader and Obie;s fight was so stylized then 18 years later is just poor... well like I said, obie hasnt fought for 18 years and Vader is more machine.

The fans and George can say all they want, but the primary reason that the OT fights were shit was because of limited choreography and stuntwork for the decade. That's it. Nothing else.

Yeah, the way Vader and Luke are described fighting outside of the movie, neither are clunky moving around doing anything because of lack of experience. And it's not like Vader is made of rock either, he still has speed. More than what's shown in the movie anyway.

Originally posted by CaedusRules
I'm coming into this a bit late, but I think there are some legit explainations for the difference in sword fightiing style.

In IV, V, VI we are watching someone with 0-3 years force experience fighting against a man that is mostly machine, and an 80 YO man that has been in exile for 18 years fighting for the first time in 18 years. Its not going to be a pretty fight. It is more sword fight.

In I, II, III we are seeing the Jedi and Sith at the top of thier games. Jedi practicing Sword Skills and Force skills from the time they are born. Even in real life if you have this, your tatics move from more reserved trying to land a killing blow, to probing defense, and opening the opposing fighter to make a mistake to capitalize on. Swords skill are automatically better. Then add to that the anticipation that is created by "knowing" and using the force, and you get highly stylized fights that look more like a dance then a sword fight... and that is exactly what I would expect by people trained to use a sword for 18-30 years and that have precognition and enhanced human powers.

I will also expect to see VII, VIII, IX will have the same type of fighting, as these people will have been taught to use the force and saber from an early age. Just like the Legacy ahem EU books did. As time goes on Luke, Jacen, Corran... they all become sword fights in the style of the prequils because their fighting skills progress and thier force talents progress.

Now if you want to argue why Vader and Obie;s fight was so stylized then 18 years later is just poor... well like I said, obie hasnt fought for 18 years and Vader is more machine.

But I wasn't moaning like a woman because I couldn't think of an explanation for the disparity between OT fights and everywhere else. I was griping because despite the explanations-- the shitty, poorly choreographed, clunkier looking fights in the OT felt more real. In films where the people and sets weren't computers and were largely real, and in a fictional universe that can't possibly be real, I like to see one-on-one fights that feel real. Ones that don't look fake, don't look stylized, don't look rehearsed, don't look practised, don't look expertly timed and pinpointed.

That's all the PT has, and it bores me. And Tempest is right: if Lucas had the dearth of resources and power when filming the OT as he did the prequels, I'm sure the OT swordfights (and much of the OT in general) would look unpleasantly familiar. Thank Space Christ the man was limited in his money, clout, and technology. His original films are better for it. Art from adversity.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hey you know what, all that is a fantastic explanation. The era, the old age, the out-of-practise...

But I wasn't moaning like a woman because I couldn't think of an explanation for the disparity between OT fights and everywhere else. I was griping because despite the explanations-- the shitty, poorly choreographed, clunkier looking fights in the OT felt more real. In films where the people and sets weren't computers and were largely real, and in a fictional universe that can't possibly be real, I like to see one-on-one fights that feel real. Ones that don't look fake, don't look stylized, don't look rehearsed, don't look practised, don't look expertly timed and pinpointed.

That's all the PT has, and it bores me. And Tempest is right: if Lucas had the dearth of resources and power when filming the OT as he did the prequels, I'm sure the OT swordfights (and much of the OT in general) would look unpleasantly familiar. Thank Space Christ the man was limited in his money, clout, and technology. His original films are better for it. Art from adversity.

These are largely differences in aesthetic and everyone has their preferences.

Movies for the 1970s tend to be more realistic in aesthetic than any other era - in dialogue, the realism of the violence, the general grittiness of the worlds they portray. From the 30s onward, movies slowly moved away from more theater-inspired sets, costumes, dialogue, and stylized design, an I think the 70s was the pinnacle of realism, which was a value of the hound directors of the period.

Since that time, there has been a shift back towards style and design, facilitated in no small part by the design options digital media offer. There is more emphasis on looking 'cool' versus looking 'real'. Star Wars had a role in this, too, as directors began creating outer space and other fantastic setting where design teams could go bonkers. But Star Wars itself retained the gritty feel of 70s cinema.

Which one a person prefers is really personal preference - each have their advantages and flaws. Myself, I prefer the real, bt that's probably because I'm becoming an old curmudgeon.

Regarding the fight choreography specifically, Lucas was most directly inspired by samurai movies, and especially those by Kurosawa. And those movies are not about fancy swordplay. The fighting is direct and utilitarian, and the samurai themselves have no superpowers.

By the time the prequels came out, the Chinese Wushu movie style was in vogue, where characters have superhuman skills and fights are choreographed for beauty and wow factor. The Matrix, Crouching tiger! Hidden Dragon and similar movies came out around the same time.

Both styles have their merits, and I like elements of both. I think the standard should be how well the director utilizes them in a way that serves to enhance the telling of their story.

Here's a pretty informative short video about the samurai DNA in Star Wars.

YouTube video