Originally posted by Digi
"A media-driven term that encompasses a very loosely aligned group of thinkers."
That works, actually. hmm
Originally posted by Deadline
Thats actually a really good video. I was expecting 'religious people are stupid nyah nyah nyah'.EDIT: I'm only half way through but it's inetresting so far..
👆
I like Penn. But he can be an obnoxious ass, at times (but so can I).
Originally posted by dadudemon
I like Penn. But he can be an obnoxious ass, at times (but so can I).
He's seriously my favorite person.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Great video, but I find it very sad that in parts of the so-called "developed world" that people would get harassed over something like that.I'm sure a time will come when people will get over it and leave each other alone; I just wish it was sooner.
I've been thinking a lot recently about this. I've long espoused two primary variables in discrimination: severity and prevalence. The severity of atheist discrimination isn't that bad, relatively speaking. In the US, LGBT, blacks, etc. have it worse. More violence and public denouncement. But the prevalence - i.e. statistical representation in society - is provably, empirically higher for atheists. More people mistrust atheists than literally any other social, political, or religious demographic. There are occasional exceptions. Muslims took the crown briefly after 9/11, and the Tea Party briefly usurped atheists around the election. But historically, atheists have held this dubious title for decades.
So it's sad but not surprising. There's also no publicly accessible movement for atheists, as with LGBT, and civil rights before it for African Americans. So the change in society is likely a ways off.
Women also present an interesting case. Almost every woman experiences gender-based discrimination at some point in their life. And feminist equality movements are well documented. But the type of discrimination is different. Women would barely register on the "Do you trust {insert demographic}?" test compared to traditionally discriminated groups. Despite certain inequalities, women aren't second class citizens in many key areas that many other groups are (marriage, ability to hold office, etc.). Yet the percentage of women that have experienced discrimination approaches 100%. So they throw a wrench into my severity/prevalence description as a way to look at the nature of discrimination. I could shuffle their collective experience into the "prevalence" variable, but the nature of that prevalence is different. And it can't accurately be quantified with traditional "prevalence" questions like "Would you vote for a Jew/atheist/Christian/Mexican/woman/etc.?" Perhaps, and this is the newest of my musings, we would say that the prevalence is very high but that the severity ranges based on situation, from almost nonexistent to very pronounced. It makes categorization harder compared to other groups, but it at least accurately describes what we see.
This is a long-winded way of saying that I'm not entirely sure what the root cause of these things are, or if there's a reasonable solution given our inherent biological and sociological tendencies. Or even if there's a good way to standardize the conversation about discrimination.
Originally posted by Digi
I've been thinking a lot recently about this. I've long espoused two primary variables in discrimination: severity and prevalence. The severity of atheist discrimination isn't that bad, relatively speaking. In the US, LGBT, blacks, etc. have it worse. More violence and public denouncement. But the prevalence - i.e. statistical representation in society - is provably, empirically higher for atheists. More people mistrust atheists than literally any other social, political, or religious demographic. There are occasional exceptions. Muslims took the crown briefly after 9/11, and the Tea Party briefly usurped atheists around the election. But historically, atheists have held this dubious title for decades.So it's sad but not surprising. There's also no publicly accessible movement for atheists, as with LGBT, and civil rights before it for African Americans. So the change in society is likely a ways off.
Women also present an interesting case. Almost every woman experiences gender-based discrimination at some point in their life. And feminist equality movements are well documented. But the type of discrimination is different. Women would barely register on the "Do you trust {insert demographic}?" test compared to traditionally discriminated groups. Despite certain inequalities, women aren't second class citizens in many key areas that many other groups are (marriage, ability to hold office, etc.). Yet the percentage of women that have experienced discrimination approaches 100%. So they throw a wrench into my severity/prevalence description as a way to look at the nature of discrimination. I could shuffle their collective experience into the "prevalence" variable, but the nature of that prevalence is different. And it can't accurately be quantified with traditional "prevalence" questions like "Would you vote for a Jew/atheist/Christian/Mexican/woman/etc.?" Perhaps, and this is the newest of my musings, we would say that the prevalence is very high but that the severity ranges based on situation, from almost nonexistent to very pronounced. It makes categorization harder compared to other groups, but it at least accurately describes what we see.
This is a long-winded way of saying that I'm not entirely sure what the root cause of these things are, or if there's a reasonable solution given our inherent biological and sociological tendencies. Or even if there's a good way to standardize the conversation about discrimination.
Things like that just reinforce the view that America is a kind of confused country. You seem to have the extremes of progression contrasted by ridiculously old-fashioned sensibilities. I've met and talked to some wonderful people from America. I have family from there. And yet I see people that are just... Well, ****ing nuts.
And they have influence that they REALLY shouldn't have.
Is it really a case of extremes with no safer middle ground? Or is it just a twisted perception that's shown online/on television towards the outside world.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Things like that just reinforce the view that America is a kind of confused country. You seem to have the extremes of progression contrasted by ridiculously old-fashioned sensibilities. I've met and talked to some wonderful people from America. I have family from there. And yet I see people that are just... Well, ****ing nuts.And they have influence that they REALLY shouldn't have.
Is it really a case of extremes with no safer middle ground? Or is it just a twisted perception that's shown online/on television towards the outside world.
It's hard to separate perception and media portrayal from reality inside the US as well. That struggle isn't unique to those outside the country. There's too many people to say there's no middle ground, but it's probably a polarized nation compared to many.
America is a very religious country by the standards set by other, similarly developed nations (and has a much lower atheist population than, say, most of Europe). I'd point to that as a cause of a lot of this, even knowing that I'll upset some people here. Religion is certainly THE factor in LGBT discrimination. Any other rationale tacked onto it is just trying to hide the root cause, which is grounded in religious extremism and/or bigotry. The current LGBT movement, and discrimination of them, is Exhibit A for the dangers of forming rationale based on belief instead of the other way around. I'm not saying there aren't other factors, but that's the runaway #1.
Some of it also has to do with the "Christian" label that Penn Jillette likes to discuss. 50 years ago, Catholics and Protestants wouldn't vote for one another. There was legit hatred. Now, everything is "Christian" and as long as a politician is registered at a Christian church and does some publicity video at it on Christmas/Easter, they're good across ALL denominations. More recently, Mormonism was brought under the political umbrella. The umbrella has been a good thing for religious tolerance as a whole, since Christians represent a vast majority, but is at the expense of the non-Christian margins. So, for example, several laws still exist preventing atheists from holding office in certain states or counties. It would be easy to assume they aren't enforced, but that's not always the case. On the plus side, Catholic and Protestant hate is a thing of the past, anomalous exceptions aside. Same with other Christian denominations (minus, say, Westboro Baptist). It's progress. But it's stuck. And I'm not sure if it will plateau here, or eventually extend the umbrella to include non-religious groups and people.
It's less black & white with other situations. And American women have it much better than some other countries, even among developed nations. But I'm reluctant to tackle gender bias, because I know the rabbit hole I'd need to go down to cover it fully.
It honestly comes across as religious extremism, more than just being religious. At least by my own standards anyway. The whole "Christian Umbrella" thing is a nice idea, and if it was done right, I think even my own country could have made use of it, but it seems to remain a very alien construct in this part of the world.
Yeah, lets leave the gender thing out of it. That wouldn't end well.
TBH, the one thing that strikes me about America is its youth, in a way. Ireland had a situation many years ago where the Catholic church were pretty much running everything in this country, and the god-fearing folk wouldn't say shit. Priests were treated like the law, and it's reflected in a lot of the uglier sides of Ireland's history.
Contrast it with today, and while Ireland is primarily a Catholic country, there just isn't that whole crazy extremism that there used to be. It makes me think that America will reach that point one day, and i'm sure you're probably waiting for people to be less uptight about the whole thing.
Originally posted by DigiMore people mistrust atheists than literally any other social, political, or religious demographic ...
... I'm not entirely sure ... the root cause ...
What's so hard to understand?
In the minds of the average American, the name "atheist" by definition equates to "godless", no?
Are they wrong in thinking that?
What philosophy does the atheist possess to prompt them to good conduct?
What, outside of what is legally permissable, even defines "good" for an atheist?
In short, what basis does the average American have to trust someone who identifies that way? There's no harm-limiting factor inherent in the belief that I can see, outside of the atheist's personal feelings or fear of outside forces bringing retribution.
Enlighten me.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What's so hard to understand?In the minds of the average American, the name "atheist" by definition equates to "godless", no?
Are they wrong in thinking that?
What philosophy does the atheist possess to prompt them to good conduct?
What, outside of what is legally permissable, even defines "good" for an atheist?In short, what basis does the average American have [b]to
trust someone who identifies that way? There's no harm-limiting factor inherent in the belief that I can see, outside of the atheist's personal feelings or fear of outside forces bringing retribution.Enlighten me. [/B]
As terrified as I am of going off-topic, I have to ask: Are you seriously suggesting that religion is the only way a person can learn morality? Right and wrong?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What's so hard to understand?In the minds of the average American, the name "atheist" by definition equates to "godless", no?
Are they wrong in thinking that?
What philosophy does the atheist possess to prompt them to good conduct?
What, outside of what is legally permissable, even defines "good" for an atheist?In short, what basis does the average American have [b]to
trust someone who identifies that way? There's no harm-limiting factor inherent in the belief that I can see, outside of the atheist's personal feelings or fear of outside forces bringing retribution.Enlighten me. [/B]
I've covered this at length before, and would direct you to the opening two posts of this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=479017. If you wish to respond to me further on this topic, please respond to the points made in my opening posts in that thread.
But the crux of the posts is that not only do atheists tend to be more moral than their religious counterparts (which provides empirical refutation to your question/view), but there are numerous potential explanations behind the "why" of it. An inability to perceive this is your own shortcoming.
Originally posted by -Pr-
It honestly comes across as religious extremism, more than just being religious. At least by my own standards anyway. The whole "Christian Umbrella" thing is a nice idea, and if it was done right, I think even my own country could have made use of it, but it seems to remain a very alien construct in this part of the world.Yeah, lets leave the gender thing out of it. That wouldn't end well.
TBH, the one thing that strikes me about America is its youth, in a way. Ireland had a situation many years ago where the Catholic church were pretty much running everything in this country, and the god-fearing folk wouldn't say shit. Priests were treated like the law, and it's reflected in a lot of the uglier sides of Ireland's history.
Contrast it with today, and while Ireland is primarily a Catholic country, there just isn't that whole crazy extremism that there used to be. It makes me think that America will reach that point one day, and i'm sure you're probably waiting for people to be less uptight about the whole thing.
BWR provided an unexpected example of my point, so that's fun. I've encountered variations of his response for years.
Anyway, the general trend, globally at least, has been toward increased secularism. I see it as a good thing, and I hope you're right about America.
Going to add a bit of my experiences with views on atheism in the midwestern/borderline south religious Black community. Delph likely has better/more insight than myself due to being an open black atheist who just recently dealt with it in a very personal manner but this is what I've noticed in my life and my history in more rural/small towns.
A lot of black people are always taught in such ways to think that Atheists don't even exist, in youth people not believing is never brought up. You're pretty much told you are christian, muslim, possibly jewish if you have white family, and Jehovas witness. Anything is something people either make up or some random cult. When Atheism is brought up or you start meeting as older you are pretty much told it's just a white people thing, you'd be shocked at the reactions I see when people in my community find out another black person is an atheist. Religion in the black community is a very strong influence and powerful force, likely out of necessity back in the day but now it opens the doors to very extreme view points. This is a community that very regularly and openly refers to other religious groups as heathens (i mean the christian side here not just the muslims like some may want to think) and it can be very quick that everyone is turned against you for now bowing your head and pretending to be one of the main religions. While it rarely results to physical violence unless the person is also gay, it does result in very public shaming and harassment with the town I live people encourage their kids to bully and make days miserable for kiss who don't believe in god or have parents who do.
The black experience is very nuanced. Has a lot of social aspects that don't truly have to do with religion but have sort of synergized with religious practices (or 'soul'😉 as a foundational aspect of our cultural identity. It's actually very discouraging because group think and superstition are extremely prevalent in our community, and you can be excommunicated rather swiftly for your individual beliefs not being in lockstep with the pack. Independent thought and logic, at least when it comes to religion and doctrine, are almost scene as foreign, and using them to challenge faith is seen as renouncing not just a God/Religion, but your blackness as well.
It's some sad, idiotic shit.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
The black experience is very nuanced. Has a lot of social aspects that don't truly have to do with religion but have sort of synergized with religious practices (or 'soul'😉 as a foundational aspect of our cultural identity. It's actually very discouraging because group think and superstition are extremely prevalent in our community, and you can be excommunicated rather swiftly for your individual beliefs not being in lockstep with the pack. Independent thought and logic, at least when it comes to religion and doctrine, are almost scene as foreign, and using them to challenge faith is seen as renouncing not just a God/Religion, but your blackness as well.It's some sad, idiotic shit.
The crazy thing is the heavy handed group thing, and universal hatred for anyone who acts differently. Does absolutely nothing to stop the infighting within the community. I used to joke, us Black people all hate each other but at the same time we get really pissed when one thinks differently.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
The crazy thing is the heavy handed group thing, and universal hatred for anyone who acts differently. Does absolutely nothing to stop the infighting within the community. I used to joke, us Black people all hate each other but at the same time we get really pissed when one thinks differently.
Yeah, it's the proverbial "crabs in a barrel", but drop anything non-crab in that barrel, and you'd better look out.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Going to add a bit of my experiences with views on atheism in the midwestern/borderline south religious Black community. Delph likely has better/more insight than myself due to being an open black atheist who just recently dealt with it in a very personal manner but this is what I've noticed in my life and my history in more rural/small towns.A lot of black people are always taught in such ways to think that Atheists don't even exist, in youth people not believing is never brought up. You're pretty much told you are christian, muslim, possibly jewish if you have white family, and Jehovas witness. Anything is something people either make up or some random cult. When Atheism is brought up or you start meeting as older you are pretty much told it's just a white people thing, you'd be shocked at the reactions I see when people in my community find out another black person is an atheist. Religion in the black community is a very strong influence and powerful force, likely out of necessity back in the day but now it opens the doors to very extreme view points. This is a community that very regularly and openly refers to other religious groups as heathens (i mean the christian side here not just the muslims like some may want to think) and it can be very quick that everyone is turned against you for now bowing your head and pretending to be one of the main religions. While it rarely results to physical violence unless the person is also gay, it does result in very public shaming and harassment with the town I live people encourage their kids to bully and make days miserable for kiss who don't believe in god or have parents who do.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
The black experience is very nuanced. Has a lot of social aspects that don't truly have to do with religion but have sort of synergized with religious practices (or 'soul'😉 as a foundational aspect of our cultural identity. It's actually very discouraging because group think and superstition are extremely prevalent in our community, and you can be excommunicated rather swiftly for your individual beliefs not being in lockstep with the pack. Independent thought and logic, at least when it comes to religion and doctrine, are almost scene as foreign, and using them to challenge faith is seen as renouncing not just a God/Religion, but your blackness as well.It's some sad, idiotic shit.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
The crazy thing is the heavy handed group thing, and universal hatred for anyone who acts differently. Does absolutely nothing to stop the infighting within the community. I used to joke, us Black people all hate each other but at the same time we get really pissed when one thinks differently.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Yeah, it's the proverbial "crabs in a barrel", but drop anything non-crab in that barrel, and you'd better look out.
Damn guys, that's awful. I can't imagine what that was like for you.