The Four Horsemen (and other notable atheists)

Started by MF DELPH9 pages

Cost me the love of my life a couple years back. I'm supposed to be a husband and father right now. I went from best boyfriend and potential son-in-law ever to "Apostate" when the wedding drew near and I wasn't going to convert. It's actually fine though. When faced with the choice between staying true to myself and being a man of intellect and conviction, or living a lie to appease other people and conform to the mold she and her mother wanted to force upon me, I just asked myself a question:

What would Jesus do?

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Cost me the love of my life a couple years back. I'm supposed to be a husband and father right now. I went from best boyfriend and potential son-in-law ever to "Apostate" when the wedding drew near and I wasn't going to convert. It's actually fine though. When faced with the choice between staying true to myself and being a man of intellect and conviction, or living a lie to appease other people and conform to the mold she and her mother wanted to force upon me, I just asked myself a question:

What would Jesus do?

😂

But yeah. That's shitty. I have seen effects like this, but never to the extent you're talking about, and it was always more as an outsider.

I think you made the right choice though.

Honestly, if a girl chose to believe and I was jaded, I would respect her beliefs. Who am I to take her happiness?

I have no problem with belief. I'll respect most beliefs unless they're completely unreasonable.

What gets me is the whole "i have to believe it too" nonsense.

Agreed. Respect others is the highway to them respecting you.

Exactly.

If I didn't think the trolls and idiots would ruin it, I'd likely make a thread about black spirituality and other issues related to black American culture. Since it's something not often talked about due to how easily and historically it turned into pure racism and people no even wanting to hear the context behind things even turned out this way and our government's role in helping it.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
If I didn't think the trolls and idiots would ruin it, I'd likely make a thread about black spirituality and other issues related to black American culture. Since it's something not often talked about due to how easily and historically it turned into pure racism and people no even wanting to hear the context behind things even turned out this way and our government's role in helping it.

Do it. I'd read!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Honestly, if a girl chose to believe and I was jaded, I would respect her beliefs.
Who am I to take her happiness?

😕

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Agreed.

Respect others is the highway to them respecting you.

😕 😕 😕

You don't like the idea of respecting others?

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't like the idea of respecting others?

Apologies, Bardock.

Right now, seeing the names that match the messages I'm seeing,
I'm trying to dismiss the possibility that somebody slipped something into the water I drank last night.

BWR, have you read my atheism morality thread that I linked in response to you earlier? God help me, I'm actually curious about your reaction.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Cost me the love of my life a couple years back. I'm supposed to be a husband and father right now. I went from best boyfriend and potential son-in-law ever to "Apostate" when the wedding drew near and I wasn't going to convert. It's actually fine though. When faced with the choice between staying true to myself and being a man of intellect and conviction, or living a lie to appease other people and conform to the mold she and her mother wanted to force upon me, I just asked myself a question:

What would Jesus do?

Lol. But sorry to hear that. Not the part about your decision, but being forced to make the choice in the first place.

I've had relationships end because of religion. I'm not black, but it's still not easy in the heart of the Midwest. My current gf, who's awesome, is a very liberal Christian, so it's working out better than most. She actively practices, so I don't get a pass like I would with some who are technically religious but, for practical purposes, live their lives entirely secular. But I still worry about the family's reaction, and the potential divide in how we'd want to raise kids (I wouldn't want to raise them atheist, per se...I'd just shelter them from religious indoctrination until they could begin to think critically about it for themselves). Those things haven't come up yet, but can't be avoided forever, so it's a source of some worry.

But we've been together about 9 months, have said "I love you" and all that jazz, and I don't think I've used the "A" word yet to describe myself. She's a smart girl, so she probably knows. We've talked about religion some, and she knows I'm "not religious" in a general sense. But the reaction to the word - while I'm happy to flaunt it in some situations - has made me extremely gun-shy about using it when I actually care about the outcome of the revelation.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have no problem with belief. I'll respect most beliefs unless they're completely unreasonable.

Agreed. But it becomes more complicated when you see all religious beliefs as unreasonable. Presenting my refutations in a way that is respectful is an ongoing challenge in my religious discussions.

Originally posted by Digi

But the crux of the posts is that not only do atheists tend to be more moral than their religious counterparts (which provides empirical refutation to your question/view),

Really? Well there are more atheists than religious people so yeah theres that. Never heard of any atheist charities and the founding fathers of America were deeply religious. America isn't perfect but one of the reasons why America is a good place to live is because of relgion.

^ oops my bad meant to say there are more religious people than atheists.

Originally posted by Deadline
^ oops my bad meant to say there are more religious people than atheists.

Ok, so what's the point? There are more religious people in the world than atheists. So?! What are you trying to show? That it's better because there are more people?

Actually make a case. Every single statement you made is, at best, in need of extrapolation.

Originally posted by Deadline
Never heard of any atheist charities

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=atheist+charities

When your opinions don't hold up to even the laziest of research, why should I take you seriously?

Originally posted by Deadline
and the founding fathers of America were deeply religious.

Deist, mostly, but yes, they were. Doesn't really prove a point though.

Originally posted by Deadline
America isn't perfect but one of the reasons why America is a good place to live is because of relgion.

That's an opinion. You're welcome to it.

...

In any case, where's your data for much of this? I have mine.

Originally posted by Digi
Agreed. But it becomes more complicated when you see all religious beliefs as unreasonable. Presenting my refutations in a way that is respectful is an ongoing challenge in my religious discussions.

A difference of opinion isn't the end of the world.

I've met enough ****y atheists, and enough nice ones, in my time to know not to tar them all with the same brush.

Edit: I honestly thought that would be filtered.

Originally posted by Digi
BWR, have you read my atheism morality thread that I linked in response to you earlier? God help me, I'm actually curious about your reaction.

Lol. But sorry to hear that. Not the part about your decision, but being forced to make the choice in the first place.

I've had relationships end because of religion. I'm not black, but it's still not easy in the heart of the Midwest. My current gf, who's awesome, is a very liberal Christian, so it's working out better than most. She actively practices, so I don't get a pass like I would with some who are technically religious but, for practical purposes, live their lives entirely secular. But I still worry about the family's reaction, and the potential divide in how we'd want to raise kids (I wouldn't want to raise them atheist, per se...I'd just shelter them from religious indoctrination until they could begin to think critically about it for themselves). Those things haven't come up yet, but can't be avoided forever, so it's a source of some worry.

But we've been together about 9 months, have said "I love you" and all that jazz, and I don't think I've used the "A" word yet to describe myself. She's a smart girl, so she probably knows. We've talked about religion some, and she knows I'm "not religious" in a general sense. But the reaction to the word - while I'm happy to flaunt it in some situations - has made me extremely gun-shy about using it when I actually care about the outcome of the revelation.

Agreed. But it becomes more complicated when you see all religious beliefs as unreasonable. Presenting my refutations in a way that is respectful is an ongoing challenge in my religious discussions.

My ex and her family are Jehovah's Witnesses. I was as well until age 14, then started going to a Baptist, Methodist, and finally a Pentacostal Church before my doubts made me give it all up around my graduation from high school. By the time I was 23, after a few years of private study and attending college, I finally came to terms with the fact that I didn't have a good reason or enough evidence to accept that anything supernatural existed (ghosts, spirits, etc), and if I couldn't prove anything supernatural existed (as in something verifiable, falsifiable evidence, not just anecdotal testimony [same reason I can't accept alien abductions]), I certainly couldn't accept claims about supernatural beings interacting with and playing a part in molding reality or human history, so the dominoes just fell from there. I actually offer that to Theists that challenge my position as a proposition for them to convert me back. If they can establish a collection of irrefutable evidence that the supernatural exists that's the first step towards starting a conversation with me about Religion. They'd then need to do the same for the particular entity they profess to get communications from existing and is what they claim it to be though. And then prove that this entity has communicated with humans. If they can do that we can talk. Until then, though, I just can't accept something so incredible at face value.

Originally posted by -Pr-
A difference of opinion isn't the end of the world.

No, but when it's a completely different worldview, and you're not talking about strangers on the internet or random acquaintances but family members and loved ones, there's a lot more tension.

Like, my mom, who I get along with and love, thinks my atheism is a punishment for sins that she committed or some flaw in her upbringing of me. So we have familial rejection, misplaced religious guilt, and supernatural thinking rolled into the same cancerous belief system. Again, we get along fine; given her beliefs, she's actually been very accepting of it, and it's been years since this has bubbled to the surface. But it's still there. And in trying to refute her, I risk alienating my mother, and/or stripping her of her beliefs that act as a support system and social identity for her. And I'm not from a particularly extremist or conservative family or city. I can't imagine how some people have it who are from such places.

The problem is never internet, political, or random public talks. It's easy to tell off *ssholes when you have no particular tie to them, and easy to accept differences in most other people. The problems are almost always personal ones. Classmates (as with the Penn Jillette story), family, friends, romantic partners, etc.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
My ex and her family are Jehovah's Witnesses. I was as well until age 14, then started going to a Baptist, Methodist, and finally a Pentacostal Church before my doubts made me give it all up around my graduation from high school. By the time I was 23, after a few years of private study and attending college, I finally came to terms with the fact that I didn't have a good reason or enough evidence to accept that anything supernatural existed (ghosts, spirits, etc), and if I couldn't prove anything supernatural existed (as in something verifiable, falsifiable evidence, not just anecdotal testimony [same reason I can't accept alien abductions]), I certainly couldn't accept claims about supernatural beings interacting with and playing a part in molding reality or human history, so the dominoes just fell from there. I actually offer that to Theists that challenge my position as a proposition for them to convert me back. If they can establish a collection of irrefutable evidence that the supernatural exists that's the first step towards starting a conversation with me about Religion. They'd then need to do the same for the particular entity they profess to get communications from existing and is what they claim it to be though. And then prove that this entity has communicated with humans. If they can do that we can talk. Until then, though, I just can't accept something so incredible at face value.

This is all pretty reasonable, and common for atheists. Still sucks in regards to your cultural situation, though.

When Bill Nye debated Ken Ham, the final question was "What would change your mind?" Nye answered "evidence." Ham answered "nothing." All kinds of sh*t rolled into a nutshell right there.

Originally posted by Digi
No, but when it's a completely different worldview, and you're not talking about strangers on the internet or random acquaintances but family members and loved ones, there's a lot more tension.

Like, my mom, who I get along with and love, thinks my atheism is a punishment for sins that she committed or some flaw in her upbringing of me. So we have familial rejection, misplaced religious guilt, and supernatural thinking rolled into the same cancerous belief system. Again, we get along fine; given her beliefs, she's actually been very accepting of it, and it's been years since this has bubbled to the surface. But it's still there. And in trying to refute her, I risk alienating my mother, and/or stripping her of her beliefs that act as a support system and social identity for her. And I'm not from a particularly extremist or conservative family or city. I can't imagine how some people have it who are from such places.

The problem is never internet, political, or random public talks. It's easy to tell off *ssholes when you have no particular tie to them, and easy to accept differences in most other people. The problems are almost always personal ones. Classmates (as with the Penn Jillette story), family, friends, romantic partners, etc.

This is all pretty reasonable, and common for atheists. Still sucks in regards to your cultural situation, though.

When Bill Nye debated Ken Ham, the final question was "What would change your mind?" Nye answered "evidence." Ham answered "nothing." All kinds of sh*t rolled into a nutshell right there.

Of course, and I have nothing but sympathy for your situation.

I am curious how things are from your point of view though; how hard is it to accept that your mother (and whatever other family members are included) believes in something that you find to be ultimately unreasonable?

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, so what's the point? There are more religious people in the world than atheists. So?! What are you trying to show? That it's better because there are more people?

Actually make a case. Every single statement you made is, at best, in need of extrapolation.

My point is that since there are more religious people it's going to be easier to prove that religious people are nastier.

Originally posted by Digi

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=atheist+charities

When your opinions don't hold up to even the laziest of research, why should I take you seriously?

Gimmie a break, are you giving yourself amnesia again? You know the number of times I've done research and seen you and your atheist buddies make all the excuses in the world, so I couldn't be bothered on one ocassion......please. If anything I'm the one who shouldn't take you seriously.

At any rate my point is I'm really struggling to see what atheism has done for the world. Sure you can have good and bad atheists but religion is more beneficial. I'm willing to bet there are more examples of charitable Christian and organizations than atheist ones. But of course if I give examples of religious people doing good things you will claim it has nothing to do with religion.

Originally posted by Digi

Deist, mostly, but yes, they were. Doesn't really prove a point though.

Seriously? So you're trying to argue you don't see how someones belief can affect what they do? Like for example the creation of the law? I guess you don't want to believe that.

Originally posted by Digi

That's an opinion. You're welcome to it.

...

So how did Communist Russia do? Oh let me guess atheism doesn't make people do bad things but religion does.

Originally posted by Digi

In any case, where's your data for much of this? I have mine.

Not sure that proves anything. Do you really expect me to believe that you've never come across studies that show the benefits of religion? Why should I bother to post data that you know already exists?

Furthermore just because there not atheists doesn't mean that they couldn't be biased. You could be agnostic, secular etc. Not saying that I know that for sure but the idea that the data is irrefutable is wrong. If you want a really big study compare Communist Russia to America.