If you're referring to their fight on the train during Labyrinth of Evil, I wouldn't consider that an example of Grievous giving Mace a "good fight". There was never a single moment in the three paragraph exchange where Mace wasn't in control of the duel- it in fact ended immediately when he decided to end it. The entire fight is closer to five paragraphs, but the last two paragraphs all illustrated a single strike by Mace and a single kick by Grievous, which Mace dodges and Grievous uses as an opportunity to run away like a ***** per normal, so I don't really consider that part of the "exchange".
Originally posted by Tzeentch
If you're referring to their fight on the train during Labyrinth of Evil, I wouldn't consider that an example of Grievous giving Mace a "good fight". There was never a single moment in the three paragraph exchange where Mace wasn't in control of the duel- it in fact ended immediately when he decided to end it. The entire fight is closer to five paragraphs, but the last two paragraphs all illustrated a single strike by Mace and a single kick by Grievous, which Mace dodges and Grievous uses as an opportunity to run away like a ***** per normal, so I don't really consider that part of the "exchange".
It was still not a stomp and Grievous lasted for a while. Enough to start mimicking Vapaad as I recall. So Maul being able to similarly last for a while isn't nonsensical.
Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing wrong with Maul holding his own against Windu, since he demonstrated holding his own even against Sidious. It's only when people make assumptions that Sidious can Force handle/blitz brothers whenever and however, then things stop making sense.
but sidious did force handle them
When you consider that we have absolutely zero frame of reference for how long the three paragraph fight actually lasted, and when you consider that Grievous' brain is a super-computer set in a distant future that logically would make ours look primitive- I don't really see how you could make that statement tbh.
edit- Here's A link to the fight btw. It's copy-pasta'd about halfway down the page.
Furthermore, I'm curious to know how people are defining a stomp, or really defining the performance of a duelist in a fight at all. Ahsoka "wasn't stomped" in her duel with Grievous, either. I think it'd be insane to argue that she "held her own" against him, though. Grievous is several tiers out of her league, his failure to smash her 4 seconds into the fight regardless.
Originally posted by Nephthys
but sidious did force handle them
Furthermore, I'm curious to know how people are defining a stomp, or really defining the performance of a duelist in a fight at all. Ahsoka "wasn't stomped" in her duel with Grievous, either. I think it'd be insane to argue that she "held her own" against him, though. Grievous is several tiers out of her league, his failure to smash her 4 seconds into the fight regardless.
It's really a hard one. Time of duel tells nothing because either character can make a successful technique/mistake at any point. Sometimes one opponent looks more dominating but again it equally can make them prone to mistakes. Characters like Kenobi and Anakin at times show extraordinary performance but equally are more prone to do silly moves/mistakes. More experienced characters like Dooku show more consistent performance.
Didn't Grievous have the advantage against Mace of being able to magnetically stick to the train they were on or something? That was also from the days when Grievous was depicted as being a lot more powerful.
Anyway it's still not the same as this considering Maul actually engaged Mace and Secura simultaneously and held his own against both.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and Maul is in Windu's league and would give him a fight. If Sora Bulq can, so can Maul.
👆
Only thing is TCW has always ignored Legends, so it's nice "Official" canon has recognized that just because Windu beat Sidious, doesn't mean other characters can't compete with Windu.
I've always said that just because you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, doesn't mean you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace. No one ever said it was a 3 way triangle. Those kind of triangles don't even work in ROTS looking at Anakin vs Dooku vs Kenobi vs Anakin.
Originally posted by carthageHad Sidious wanted to he could've blitzed him outright,
Nah Sidious isn't going to speed Blitz Windu or Dooku level Jedi/Sith.
Originally posted by NephthysI've never even referenced the time of Mace and Maul's duel you pig ****er. What I said is that what we saw of the duel isn't indicative of how close a match Maul is for Mace.
And when you consider that we have no clue how long Maul and Maces fight was either, suggesting it was any longer or shorter than GG's efforts isn't really possible. I don't see anything in the link suggesting that.
Tying that in to what we're discussing now, it isn't indicative of Maul being on Mace' level anymore than Ashoka's performance against Grievous is indicative of her being on his level, or AotC Obi-Wan's performance against Dooku being indicative of him being on Dooku's level.
Thus my question- what metric are people using to define someone's performance in a fight? There seems to be a line of thought that if someone gets into a duel and doesn't win, but doesn't get killed a handful of seconds into it either, he therefore "held his own".
I disagree on the grounds that most fights in the mythos last a very long time, relatively speaking, even between fighters whose skills aren't evenly matched at all, with the two duels referenced above serving as prime examples.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, I'm not at all surprised. It's been clear for years that neither the films nor the EU adhere to a strict power chart when it comes to duels. It's a very loose hierarchy that can be bent or broken by the Rule of Cool.
It's not "Rule of Cool" (okay sometimes it is but not always), it's bent or broken by the varying circumstances of battle.
Duels are not as simple as "I'm better so I automatically win." Under the right circumstances a "lesser" foe is capable of beating a "stronger" one. Maybe they just got lucky, maybe they fought harder, maybe the stronger guy underestimated them, maybe the stronger guy got distracted etc.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Occasionally you have a fairly concrete power structure (cf. Filoni's remarks on either Yoda or Sidious where he emphasizes that pretty much everyone else can't compete with them), but for the most part, the writers don't really give such things ample consideration. Barriss vs. Anakin is a particularly egregious example that springs to mind. Or Anakin vs. Hondo in season 2. Or Dooku vs. Anakin anytime.
Beg your pardon but a "fairly concrete power structure" is pretty illogical. Like I said it's not as simple as "I'm better so I automatically (and easily) win." Granted, sometimes it's just bad writing (to use another series example, Buffy Summers struggling to defeat a rank and file vampire in the episode "Remember Me"😉 but other times it's not.
Barriss vs. Anakin for example. Yes Anakin is a lot more skilled and powerful, but Barriss is a well-trained and skilled Jedi in her own right. I have no problem with her not being instantly defeated and being able to fight him for a little while.
Personally I don't see why people are getting so worked up. Mace is really good but Maul is no pushover either.
Heck, Ventress and Mace fought briefly in the comics. Mace stated that she could not win, she admitted this was true and retreated. Sure Mace was better but that doesn't mean she'd instantly get cut down. She was good enough to fend him off for a bit. It's the same thing here.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
It's not "Rule of Cool" (okay sometimes it is but not always), it's bent or broken by the varying circumstances of battle.Duels are not as simple as "I'm better so I automatically win." Under the right circumstances a "lesser" foe is capable of beating a "stronger" one. Maybe they just got lucky, maybe they fought harder, maybe the stronger guy underestimated them, maybe the stronger guy got distracted etc.
I think that's what he was getting at in his point.
Remember Dave Filoni's commentary on Obi-Wan defeating Maul and Opress in one episode, whilst the duo were beating Obi-Wan and Ventress in prior episode.
His reasoning was that every situation is different, and every combatant has their worse days and better days.
In this case Obi-Wan wasn't in the right mind set in the first episode. He was in the second for his one on one with Maul. But then he was even more focused (hence gave an even better performance than his usual best) for his fight against the duo.
Now whether Maul and Opress were in the right mind set, properly focused and fighting at their very best is a different question.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Heck, Ventress and Mace fought briefly in the comics. Mace stated that she could not win, she admitted this was true and retreated. Sure Mace was better but that doesn't mean she'd instantly get cut down. She was good enough to fend him off for a bit. It's the same thing here.
Of course in that Mace v Ventress fight it was a one on one and it was made clear that Mace was winning, and that Ventress was forced to retreat to survive.
In this case however Maul was shown capable of engaging both Windu and Secura, looking superior to Secura, but at no point looking inferior to Mace Windu.
Now I have no doubt Windu would beat Maul every time they fight, but I think looking at this, that Maul would put up a much better fight than most give him credit for. Certainly a better fight than Ventress could put up.
In fact I'd even say Maul would put up a better fight against Windu than Obi-Wan could, simply because Windu would likely defeat Kenobi with TK without much problem. Whereas Maul's TK isn't as good as Windu's but stronger than Obi-Wan's and good enough to put up a fight against Windu.
It depends on the day, and it also depends on how individuals match up to each other in terms of skills, confidence, will, etc.
We see this in sports all the time. In the World Cup group stages this year Germany crushed Portugal and Portugal beat Ghana. What happened when Germany and Ghana played? Tie.
Or look at when teams (or individuals) play multiple times in a season or a series, one might blow the other out in one game and the other might win in overtime the next.
Regarding Barriss v Anakin, Barriss had clearly advanced beyond her days adventuring with Ahsoka. I feel like she had graduated to Knight status, but I don't know that for sure. But consider how she perfectly executed the plot to bomb the temple and frame Ahsoka; how she handled Ventress, pushed Ahsoka around, broke into the detention area and killed all those clones without leaving a trace, and killed her co-conspirator from who-knows-where. That is all VERY bad-ass and shows that she was powerful. And remember that she was also drawing power from her dark side.
My personal theory is that she was working for Sidious, and the whole scheme was a plot to separate Anakin from Ahsoka and further estranged him from the Jedi. If that is so, Sidious likely trained Barriss, which helps explain the flowering of her skills. Sidious also would have helped her operate in the detention center and possibly killed the co-conspirator.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think that's what he was getting at in his point.Remember Dave Filoni's commentary on Obi-Wan defeating Maul and Opress in one episode, whilst the duo were beating Obi-Wan and Ventress in prior episode.
His reasoning was that every situation is different, and every combatant has their worse days and better days.
In this case Obi-Wan wasn't in the right mind set in the first episode. He was in the second for his one on one with Maul. But then he was even more focused (hence gave an even better performance than his usual best) for his fight against the duo.
Now whether Maul and Opress were in the right mind set, properly focused and fighting at their very best is a different question.
Originally posted by Ace Hambone
It depends on the day, and it also depends on how individuals match up to each other in terms of skills, confidence, will, etc.We see this in sports all the time. In the World Cup group stages this year Germany crushed Portugal and Portugal beat Ghana. What happened when Germany and Ghana played? Tie.
Or look at when teams (or individuals) play multiple times in a season or a series, one might blow the other out in one game and the other might win in overtime the next.
Precisely. Thank you both.
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