Originally posted by Mindset
Based on what? Because she does flips and is flexible?Cap is better than Mystique, that's really not up for debate, and WS and Cap were fighting on fairly equal terms for most of the movie.
Mystique has never beaten anyone of note.
How does this make any sense? You compared Mystique to BW... and then said BW fought on even terms with Cap... yet losses to Bucky who cap beat... Odd logic
Originally posted by Mindset
Wolverine was a shitty fighter in the first movie. Without his claws he would have lost to pretty much anyone. They didn't show him with any actual skill until the later movies.Yea, which is why I have BW and Mystique on the same level, below that of WS and Cap. 👆
Negative... Wolverine was hundreds of years old by that point... fought in many wars.. some of which was close quarters combat. A had fought Sabertooth many a time... even beating him... somebody who again is above Cap. Wolverine as took out Agent Zero...and fought with Weapon X. He clearly was a superb fighter.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Sorry to burst your bubble, but fighting skill is not determined by who has the fancier moves. Because if that was the case then gymnasts would beat up every single boxer or wrestler in a fight.Mystique is more acrobatic, more flexible and more agile than Winter Soldier. That still doesn't mean that she's the better fighter.
She took out a bunch of armed fodder. Nothing exactly new in the superhero wold. Black Widow constantly takes out groups of armed men, look how easily Winter Soldier took her out.
Wolverine in the movies is one hell of a crappy fighter. I'm going to pretend that I simply misunderstood your last comment and hope you didn't really mean to say that Wolverine is actually more skilled than Captain America.
Fact is, Mystique still hasn't fought against anyone of decent skill. Definitely no one of Cap's level, not even on BW's level.
As I stated above... Wolverine had already beaten Sabertooth at least once by the time he fought mystique. Somebody who's healing factor and strength is above Cap's. Beaten Agent Zero and Gambit and fought Weapon X. Comics and the movies make it clear Wolverine's healing factor is above CaP'S ... Same with strength feats. In comics we see wolverine beat people Cap could only dream of beating... Which makes it clear how skilled he is. Fact is, BW kept up with Cap... Mystique is better than her. Cap beat bucky... thus Mystique can beat Bucky. Simple
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As I stated above... Wolverine had already beaten Sabertooth at least once by the time he fought mystique. Somebody who's healing factor and strength is above Cap's. Beaten Agent Zero and Gambit and fought Weapon X. Comics and the movies make it clear Wolverine's healing factor is above CaP'S ... Same with strength feats. In comics we see wolverine beat people Cap could only dream of beating... Which makes it clear how skilled he is. Fact is, BW kept up with Cap... Mystique is better than her. Cap beat bucky... thus Mystique can beat Bucky. Simple
First of all, this is the MvF. Comics don't count here.
2nd, Wolverine beat all of those opponents due to his adamantium skeleton and claws as well as his healing factor. He did not defeat them due to his superior h2h skills... which I believe was what you were trying to prove. Wolverine in the movies is a hack and slash brawler. If it wasn't for his healing and adamantium he'd have lost majority of the fights he got in to.
Sabertooth beat the crap out of Wolverine when they were on equal terms. It was only when he got his adamantium that Wolverine beat him.
Anyway the point is, Wolverine in the movies shows no where near the fighting skill that Cap displayed, so you're still stuck with the fact that Mystique has never fought anyone of decent skill.
You also seem to have evaded my point of fancier moves != fighting skill.
And where are you getting this idea that BW kept up with Cap? She never has. Please tell me what scene in the movies make you believe this.
Originally posted by FrothByte
First of all, this is the MvF. Comics don't count here.2nd, Wolverine beat all of those opponents due to his adamantium skeleton and claws as well as his healing factor. He did not defeat them due to his superior h2h skills... which I believe was what you were trying to prove. Wolverine in the movies is a hack and slash brawler. If it wasn't for his healing and adamantium he'd have lost majority of the fights he got in to.
Sabertooth beat the crap out of Wolverine when they were on equal terms. It was only when he got his adamantium that Wolverine beat him.
Anyway the point is, Wolverine in the movies shows no where near the fighting skill that Cap displayed, so you're still stuck with the fact that Mystique has never fought anyone of decent skill.
You also seem to have evaded my point of fancier moves != fighting skill.
And where are you getting this idea that BW kept up with Cap? She never has. Please tell me what scene in the movies make you believe this.
You can say he hasn't shown skills but that doesn't make it so... He BEAT those people.. You said Mystique hasn't beaten anybody of significance. She has, she beat Wolverine and got the better of the fight. You then said Wolverine wasn't impressive. At which point, I pointed out that in the movies he's Beaten Sabertooth... Agent Zero.. Gambit... which are all impressive. You defeat your whole argument though. Cap... isn't as pretty when he fights as mystique. So obviously fancy moves don't impressive. So, why is that now being held against Wolverine? He beat those people I named, and obviously it was at least partially because of skill. If he was never able to land any blows.. and just tanked everything.. Sure you could say no skill and only healing factor. However, he was able to land blows which is how he won. Period end of story. Fact is, I never said who would win for sure. I got into the argument because people were saying Cap is more skilled than Mystique and that couldn't be further from the truth.
You seem to be under the impression that pretty moves are just for sure and don't prove a superior fighter. Not true, there are countless examples of pretty crazy moves proving decisive in real life fights. Whether it be MMA or Boxing. Often times the guy with the flashier moves DOES win. Haven't you not seen many fights?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can say he hasn't shown skills but that doesn't make it so... He BEAT those people.. You said Mystique hasn't beaten anybody of significance. She has, she beat Wolverine and got the better of the fight. You then said Wolverine wasn't impressive. At which point, I pointed out that in the movies he's Beaten Sabertooth... Agent Zero.. Gambit... which are all impressive. You defeat your whole argument though. Cap... isn't as pretty when he fights as mystique. So obviously fancy moves don't impressive. So, why is that now being held against Wolverine? He beat those people I named, and obviously it was at least partially because of skill. If he was never able to land any blows.. and just tanked everything.. Sure you could say no skill and only healing factor. However, he was able to land blows which is how he won. Period end of story. Fact is, I never said who would win for sure. I got into the argument because people were saying Cap is more skilled than Mystique and that couldn't be further from the truth.You seem to be under the impression that pretty moves are just for sure and don't prove a superior fighter. Not true, there are countless examples of pretty crazy moves proving decisive in real life fights. Whether it be MMA or Boxing. Often times the guy with the flashier moves DOES win. Haven't you not seen many fights?
Guy with flashier moves win the fight? Man, you're the one who needs to see real fights. Don't just base your knowledge on movie fights. Watch MMA. Do you see them utilizing multiple spinning flying kicks? Do you see them utilize backhand karate chops and monkey style kung fu? No you don't. Most of the time they stick to simple and practical moves.
Wolverine won against his opponents due to healing factor, adamantium claws and skeleton. Does he have some fighting skill? Of course he has. He's a fighter after all. Does he have good fighting skill? No he doesn't. You'd have to be blind to claim so. He barely ducks blows, usually just tanks them. And he always has trouble against actual skilled opponents: Mystique, Deathstrike, Deadpool, etc.
That said, I never said Mystique wasn't skilled, just that she has never fought against anyone of decent skill. Wolverine is a brawler. Take away his adamantium and Sabertooth beat the crap out of him. Besides, Wolverine beat Mystique. She got stabbed remember?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Guy with flashier moves win the fight? Man, you're the one who needs to see real fights. Don't just base your knowledge on movie fights. Watch MMA. Do you see them utilizing multiple spinning flying kicks? Do you see them utilize backhand karate chops and monkey style kung fu? No you don't. Most of the time they stick to simple and practical moves.Wolverine won against his opponents due to healing factor, adamantium claws and skeleton. Does he have some fighting skill? Of course he has. He's a fighter after all. Does he have good fighting skill? No he doesn't. You'd have to be blind to claim so. He barely ducks blows, usually just tanks them. And he always has trouble against actual skilled opponents: Mystique, Deathstrike, Deadpool, etc.
That said, I never said Mystique wasn't skilled, just that she has never fought against anyone of decent skill. Wolverine is a brawler. Take away his adamantium and Sabertooth beat the crap out of him. Besides, Wolverine beat Mystique. She got stabbed remember?
I assure you, I've watched more boxing or MMA than you ever have. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say I've forgotten more about those sports than you've ever known. Not trying to be a dick, it's simply laughable to ask if I've watched fights lol. Look at Anderson Silva... Flashy moves winning the day to be one of the best of all time. Look at Pernell Whitaker in many of his fights.. Flashy showboating while dominating. Same with Roy Jones Jr. flashy showboating moves and dominate. Same with Ali... Look at Pettis of the cage kick on Henderson. Look at the Flying knee bar Ryo pulled on Silva. The flying armbars that have worked numerous times in MMA or Mundials. The superman punches... the spinning backfists.. Etc etc.. there are countless showings like these where they work. I named 3 boxers who were flashy and probably the best of all time in their prime weight class. Whitaker LW... RJJ SMW... Ali HW... You could even include Sugar Ray Leonard at WW. Flashy and showboating has worked on countless occasions while still being superior in virtually every way.
She got stabbed after dominating him H2H and while she wasn't even looking. It wasn't in the course of a fight. You can do better.
If this was true and he only won because of his healing factor and skeleton.. .He wouldn't have ever landed ANY blows and just tanked everything. As I've shown this couldn't be further from the truth. He landed blows on Sabertooth... Gambit and Weapon X... Yet couldn't land much of anything on mystique. Again you're forgetting that Sabertooth is above Cap in strength himself and healing factor. Wolverine beat him on more than one occasion. Wolverine hand the same claws and skeleton and couldn't beat Mystique. Let's not act like Wolverine hasn't beaten anybody. He's beat more impressive people than Cap or Bucky ever have.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I assure you, I've watched more boxing or MMA than you ever have. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say I've forgotten more about those sports than you've ever known. Not trying to be a dick, it's simply laughable to ask if I've watched fights lol. Look at Anderson Silva... Flashy moves winning the day to be one of the best of all time. Look at Pernell Whitaker in many of his fights.. Flashy showboating while dominating. Same with Roy Jones Jr. flashy showboating moves and dominate. Same with Ali... Look at Pettis of the cage kick on Henderson. Look at the Flying knee bar Ryo pulled on Silva. The flying armbars that have worked numerous times in MMA or Mundials. The superman punches... the spinning backfists.. Etc etc.. there are countless showings like these where they work. I named 3 boxers who were flashy and probably the best of all time in their prime weight class. Whitaker LW... RJJ SMW... Ali HW... You could even include Sugar Ray Leonard at WW. Flashy and showboating has worked on countless occasions while still being superior in virtually every way.She got stabbed after dominating him H2H and while she wasn't even looking. It wasn't in the course of a fight. You can do better.
If this was true and he only won because of his healing factor and skeleton.. .He wouldn't have ever landed ANY blows and just tanked everything. As I've shown this couldn't be further from the truth. He landed blows on Sabertooth... Gambit and Weapon X... Yet couldn't land much of anything on mystique. Again you're forgetting that Sabertooth is above Cap in strength himself and healing factor. Wolverine beat him on more than one occasion. Wolverine hand the same claws and skeleton and couldn't beat Mystique. Let's not act like Wolverine hasn't beaten anybody. He's beat more impressive people than Cap or Bucky ever have.
Sorry to say this, but you are a dick. Claiming that you know more about fighting than I do (or anyone else for that matter) without any given proof is pretty much a jerk-like attitude and immediately lowers your credibility.
You gave examples of 3 boxers who had flash showmanship but not flashy technique. After all, they still threw the same type of punches that other boxers do. Jab, straight, cross, hooks and uppercuts. Unless you can give me examples of these boxers actually utilizing techniques that are far fancier than what other boxers use. Dancing around in the ring and mouthing off your opponent is fancy showmanship and not exactly fancy technique.
Anderson Silva utilizes mostly muay thai and bjj moves. He dances around a lot but at the end of the day his techniques are still pretty straight forward. You don't exactly see him moving like Boyka. Fact is, look at the most effective styles used in MMA: Muay Thai, Bjj, boxing, wrestling.... all these are practical and none flashy techniques. If your theory on "flashier =superior" is true then how come tkd, capoeira, kung-fu and extreme karate aren't dominating the sport?
As for Wolverine, Mystique is more skilled than him. No one's contesting this fact. You still haven't proven jack about Wolverine's fight skill though. Getting hits on someone isn't exactly proof of great fighting skill, his opponents weren't speedsters after all. Most of the opponents that WOlverine fought were brawlers like him. However when you see him go up against skilled opponents (Deathstrike, Mystique, Deadpool) he clearly struggles to catch up.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiNo, he said Mystique may have slightly better skill than Bucky. If that were true, that would put her on Caps level. I compared her to BW, who, like Mystique, is inferior to both Cap and WS. I never said BW fought evenly with Cap. It's not odd, you just didn't read it correctly.
How does this make any sense? You compared Mystique to BW... and then said BW fought on even terms with Cap... yet losses to Bucky who cap beat... Odd logic
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiWhich has nothing to do with my point that he was SHOWN to be a shitty fighter in X1.
Negative... Wolverine was hundreds of years old by that point... fought in many wars.. some of which was close quarters combat. A had fought Sabertooth many a time... even beating him... somebody who again is above Cap. Wolverine as took out Agent Zero...and fought with Weapon X. He clearly was a superb fighter.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Sorry to say this, but you are a dick. Claiming that you know more about fighting than I do (or anyone else for that matter) without any given proof is pretty much a jerk-like attitude and immediately lowers your credibility.You gave examples of 3 boxers who had flash showmanship but not flashy technique. After all, they still threw the same type of punches that other boxers do. Jab, straight, cross, hooks and uppercuts. Unless you can give me examples of these boxers actually utilizing techniques that are far fancier than what other boxers use. Dancing around in the ring and mouthing off your opponent is fancy showmanship and not exactly fancy technique.
Anderson Silva utilizes mostly muay thai and bjj moves. He dances around a lot but at the end of the day his techniques are still pretty straight forward. You don't exactly see him moving like Boyka. Fact is, look at the most effective styles used in MMA: Muay Thai, Bjj, boxing, wrestling.... all these are practical and none flashy techniques. If your theory on "flashier =superior" is true then how come tkd, capoeira, kung-fu and extreme karate aren't dominating the sport?
As for Wolverine, Mystique is more skilled than him. No one's contesting this fact. You still haven't proven jack about Wolverine's fight skill though. Getting hits on someone isn't exactly proof of great fighting skill, his opponents weren't speedsters after all. Most of the opponents that WOlverine fought were brawlers like him. However when you see him go up against skilled opponents (Deathstrike, Mystique, Deadpool) he clearly struggles to catch up.
I never once said Flashier is better... I'm disputing this notion that you can't be flashy while still being better. You seemed to think that Flashy doesn't work and straightforward gameplan always wins the day. Thus I pointed out numerous fighters and moves where flashy won the day and they were still superior skill wise as well. I was simply combating this theory that flashy doesn't work and isn't good compared to straight forward fighting. Listed flying armbars.. superman punches... flying knee bars... Etc that work and have worked. If you haven't seen those boxers fight than don't comment. They were flashy in an offensive way... throwing punches that weren't textbook so they could look cute and make the other guy look worse. You see this all the time with those three. Not only that but defensively.. Sticking out their head and daring people to hit them... while still being fast enough to get out of the way. Purposely standing in a corner and letting the other person try and hit them. There is no need for that, and is flashy and uncalled for.. yet they got away with it because of them still having superior skill. Roy would through 5 left hooks in a row.. not text book at all.. but he could get away with it. he would even lead with a left hook which is exactly what you never really wanna do... Guess what it worked. To illustrate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR3qbQeo8nY
Point is, Mystique got the better of somebody who has beaten better people than cap... Plain and simple. There is no getting around this point. You can say it was because of this or that.. but that the fact is... Mystique got the better of somebody who has beaten people superior to Cap or Bucky.
Show proof he forgot all his fighting skill when he lost his memory. That logic is faulty at its core. That would imply he wouldn't know language as well since he forgot "everything" as you guys claim. Yet, right after he was shot in the head.. he was able to have a conversation with Gambit and talked perfectly fine. Thus, he clearly didn't lose all his memory on how to do things. What he needed to learn how to use a fork and spoon to? Please. You need to prove he forgot all his skills and all anxiously await that proof. Until then, he beat those people before X1 and thus they count.