Wolverine never had incredible fight skills, He had bone claws and razor sharp ones at that, later added adamentium and was nigh unkillable...hence getting his ass kicked over and over by people above his pay grade. All of the people he fought he always got his ass kicked till PIS came into play as well has him being very hard to kill or stop. Any maniac with invunerable and regeneration and razor sharp claws that can cut through anything will beat most people.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I never once said Flashier is better... I'm disputing this notion that you can't be flashy while still being better. You seemed to think that Flashy doesn't work and straightforward gameplan always wins the day. Thus I pointed out numerous fighters and moves where flashy won the day and they were still superior skill wise as well. I was simply combating this theory that flashy doesn't work and isn't good compared to straight forward fighting. Listed flying armbars.. superman punches... flying knee bars... Etc that work and have worked. If you haven't seen those boxers fight than don't comment. They were flashy in an offensive way... throwing punches that weren't textbook so they could look cute and make the other guy look worse. You see this all the time with those three. Not only that but defensively.. Sticking out their head and daring people to hit them... while still being fast enough to get out of the way. Purposely standing in a corner and letting the other person try and hit them. There is no need for that, and is flashy and uncalled for.. yet they got away with it because of them still having superior skill. Roy would through 5 left hooks in a row.. not text book at all.. but he could get away with it. he would even lead with a left hook which is exactly what you never really wanna do... Guess what it worked. To illustratehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR3qbQeo8nY
Point is, Mystique got the better of somebody who has beaten better people than cap... Plain and simple. There is no getting around this point. You can say it was because of this or that.. but that the fact is... Mystique got the better of somebody who has beaten people superior to Cap or Bucky.
I know who those boxers are, thank you very much. And you seem to still not understand my point. I never said textbook is better. I said practical is usually better. These boxers mix up their moves that make it not textbook, but at the end of the day they still deliver practical, none fancy punches... unless you can show me them using superman punches.
And I never said flashy techniques don't work. They do... sometimes. Just not as often as practical techniques. But we're veering away from the argument here. The main point I was trying to make was that you can't judge a person's fighting skill basing off how fancy their moves are. And I mentioned this because you were insisting that Mystique was a better fighter than Bucky due simply to how fancy her moves were.
Wolverine has beaten powerful and skilled opponents before but not by overwhelming them with superior skill. He defeated them by use of claws, healing and heart. So in this discussion where we're debating skill, Wolverine is very low on the ladder.
Originally posted by Silent Master
X1 itself is proof, he showed no real skill beyond brawling.
That isn't proof.. he fought the same away against Sabertooth as before. He always fights the same way. Point is, Wolverine has beaten people cap could only dream about beating. You can say he doesn't have this or that.. but he's beaten them... Period
Originally posted by 80sBaby
Wait, did he really just ask for proof that Logan lost his fighting skills when he lost his entire memory?
If he lost his all his memory clownshoes than how was he able to speak RIGHT after he got shot? According to you he lost everything. Yet, we know that isn't true as he was able to speak and just fine after losing all his memory according to you. Did you even watch the movie? Now explain that.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I know who those boxers are, thank you very much. And you seem to still not understand my point. I never said textbook is better. I said practical is usually better. These boxers mix up their moves that make it not textbook, but at the end of the day they still deliver practical, none fancy punches... unless you can show me them using superman punches.And I never said flashy techniques don't work. They do... sometimes. Just not as often as practical techniques. But we're veering away from the argument here. The main point I was trying to make was that you can't judge a person's fighting skill basing off how fancy their moves are. And I mentioned this because you were insisting that Mystique was a better fighter than Bucky due simply to how fancy her moves were.
Wolverine has beaten powerful and skilled opponents before but not by overwhelming them with superior skill. He defeated them by use of claws, healing and heart. So in this discussion where we're debating skill, Wolverine is very low on the ladder.
Well then we aren't too far off on our discussion. As long as you agree that flashy can be better and can also mean you're superior. I never said Mystique was a better fighter, she very well could be. What I am saying is she showed superior skill than bucky ever did, which is how we got on this discussion.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well then we aren't too far off on our discussion. As long as you agree that flashy can be better and can also mean you're superior. I never said Mystique was a better fighter, she very well could be. What I am saying is she showed superior skill than bucky ever did, which is how we got on this discussion.
Showed superior acrobatics skills yes. We're unsure of who has superior fighting skill. It's hard to judge Mystique's fighting skill when she hasn't fought anyone of decent skill.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Funny enough I don't even like Wolverine. He's alright. My point was to combat this notion that Bucky is more skilled than Mystique and that point is simply laughable at best. The rest is trying to fight clownshoes claiming Wolverine lost "all his memories" which I've also proven to be false.
I understand, I don't see the linar comparison flow though.
Bucky is highly trained and on super serum and been on mission for over 50 years.
His skill is way above Logan's, As far as the Logan losing his memories on how to fight, you right, that never happened. He has his same instincts and skill set through all the brain trauma.
I actually agree with KThanosi about that forgetting fighting memory bit. Fighting skill is mostly muscle memory, I don't think amnesia affects it.
So yeah, I don't think Wolverine lost his fighting skill. He just never really had much of it in the first place. He fights as crappy in X1 as he did in all the other movies.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I actually agree with KThanosi about that forgetting fighting memory bit. Fighting skill is mostly muscle memory, I don't think amnesia affects it.So yeah, I don't think Wolverine lost his fighting skill. He just never really had much of it in the first place. He fights as crappy in X1 as he did in all the other movies.
His X1 fights were pretty aweful, but thats going off the first movie. There has been like 6 movies with him in it, all with better showings. I think its only fair to use amalgam and off later showings.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If he lost his all his memory clownshoes than how was he able to speak RIGHT after he got shot? According to you he lost everything. Yet, we know that isn't true as he was able to speak and just fine after losing all his memory according to you. Did you even watch the movie? Now explain that.
So you don't understand how amnesia actually works then? Ok.
But the onus is on you since, after losing his memories, he didn't have any actual skill showings so your move...
Originally posted by 80sBaby
All those fights against Sabertooth, Agent Zero, Gambit, etc happened PRIOR to Logan losing his memories so any skill showings there don't count in his fight against Mystique. X1 takes place AFTER and it's clear he's just a hack & slash brawler.
We use more current versions, so due to continuity the most current version has all his memories back
Originally posted by maxivitopowe
We use more current versions, so due to continuity the most current version has all his memories back
Yeah but this would only be the case if it was Wolverine who was in this fight. But we're not arguing for Wolverine, we're arguing for Mystique. And the Wolverine she fought was the Wolverine in X1 who (as has been pointed out to me) had the crappiest fighting skills among all his movie incarnations (not that the rest were that much better of course).