Arguing terminology again? You must be dreadfully dull in real life.
Keeping skimming over the point if you wish but the real argument still stands. Darth Thanaton's stance is as a very powerful Dark Council member. One whom as a mere apprentice can kill a massive Gargantuan with a Force Lightning charged saber, whilst near death. He is most certainly in the realms of a Jerec tier character if not greater. Nox's utter destruction of him is an enormous feat.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Arguing terminology again? You must be dreadfully dull in real life.
Nice ad hominem. With that and your obvious dropping the point, I'll accept your renewed concession.
Let's face it. You used language suggesting Thanaton dominated Nox with his lightning. You were called out on your inaccurate point and you lost. It's not my fault you used poor terminology.
*shrug*
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's pretty awesome, actually.Better than befriending someone who claims they are male/female/bi/straight/gay/lesbian/pregnant/notkulvax/kulvax/ethopian/nomisunrider'skraytdragon at least.
Do you have anything even remotely new to bait me with because really this is some of the worst trolling I have ever recieved.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Nox has debilitating and physically corrupting spells she can use on him to temporarily cripple him. She also has advanced stealth and teleportstion feats. She can heal herself or drain Marek at her own will. Her Force defenses have been strong enough to near effortlessly ward off the attacks of very strong Sith spirits and the likes of Zash and Thanaton.Darth Nox a long time before her prime has killed Darth Zash with 'ease' despite Zash having been protected by Force resistant rituals.
Darth Nox has dominated the minds of a group of highly trained Sith assassins with apparent ease, demonstrating her 'madness' discipline mastery.
Nox 'destroyed' the 'supremely powerful' Darth Thanaton. Noting of course that Thanaton as Teneb Kel was so powerful that the Emperor personally appointed him to kill Exal Kressh.
Teneb Kel was strong enough that he killed a Gargantuan with Force Lightning despite being near death. He also threw around car sized pieces of starship junk with ease and formed a massive bridge of junk metal with tk in the vacuum of space, maintained that tk and withstood the vacuum of space as he moved across it. Teneb Kel was very powerful, decades before his prime as Darth Thanaton.
As Darth Thanaton he could kill Nox and Ashara Zavros with one Sith spell, all that saved Nox were the ghosts themselves. He was capable of withstanding the massive energy explosion that Nox unleashed. He later summoned a Bubble too powerful to be broken into. He has also of course summoned an FLS strong enough to rip chunks out of the Dark Council chamber and make Nox kneel. Nox again overcomes this with her spirits and proceeds to dominate him in return.
Darth Thanaton is not some peon, he's clearly very powerful and has feats to back them up. Darth Nox 'destroyed' him with the 'overwhelming power' of her spirits. A very impressive feat being desperately marginalised.
👆
Originally posted by The Merchant
He pushed something that has a mass of 892 billion Metric Tons :I Again, even if here barely moved it by a meter the amount of energy required to move the starship 1 meter per second would require kinetic energy that is equal to a massive atomic bomb.http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Relativity.html
Input the values I gave in the calculator. Also maybe the opponents that Starkiller struggled with are just that powerful? Finally, Hord bringing down a ship similar to a Hammerhead cruiser had its own calculation to it, it was roughly 3 times more powerful than Marek's if you believe he only moved it 1 meter. In reality the Star Destroyer was falling at Hypersonic speeds, so Moving that much mass plus with that amount of speed it was packing would raise the figure by many orders of magnitudes. SK SOLOS TOR.
My dear Merchant.
First, I'd love to see where you got the info on the mass of a Star Destroyer. It seems to be totally off the charts. Michael Wong of Stardestroyer.net once calculated that, if the Executor was build using material 10 % the weight of iron, it would have a weight of 35 billion tons. Assuming it is made of iron (with far more durable and less weighty materials being around in our time already, making that an off guess), it would have a weight of 350 billion tons. And that thing is 100 times more massive than a regular Star Derstroyer. Which makes anything in the "billion tons" range an absurd guess for the mass of a regular ISD. Following Wong, we would get something more like 350 million tons. While there are different estimations putting a regular ISD around 40 million tons.
Then: Starkiller doesn't push the Star Destroyer, which is the false assumption your entire argument is based on. He alters the direction of the already ongoing movement of the Star Destroyer by applying a force push against the front section of the Star Destroyer that forces the ship's "nose" down to make contact with the buildings on the ground.
The calculator gives on an idea how much energy would be needed to change the acceleration of an object in a certain way. In that case, it tells you how much energy is needed to accelerate the Star Destroyer from a resting position (0 m/s) into moving 1 m/s. But that is not what Starkiller does.
Starkiller alters the already existing acceleration of the Star Destroyer causing a change of direction from the initial flight (or crash) path to a direct impact on the ground. This can be seen in this video from 4:10 on...
The Star Destroyer is clearly not moving with "hypersonic speed", given that the maximum atmospheric travel speed for a Star Destroyer is 975 km/h or 270 m/s and it doesn't exactly "crash" to the ground in an uncontrolled fashion. If it was, it would drop straight to the ground rather than "flying" towards Starkiller's position.
And to find out how much Force Starkiller's action required, you would first need to find out how much momentum the SD had with it's original movement and then look into how momentum changed in the two directions (decrease on the initial direction, increase on the new one) to figure out how the momentum of the Star Destroyer was changed in total. Then you could compute the Force needed to do so.
Even using the highest estimates in favor of your argument, it still comes down to a fraction of what you assumed to be true. And Marek needed time to exert that force, which would also diminish the actual energy he applied against the Star Destroyer (since that is traditionally measured per second).
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Avenger#cite_note-SpecPlate-0
Mass
359,000 mt (Deadweight)[1]
892,000mt/KPa/atm (Displacement)[1]
MT is Megatonnage btw.
Pushing, altering, etc. Regardless of the terminology He moved the SD in some way, that isn't debatable. Meaning even moving it barely by a meter off its original course leads to the massive amount of energy the calculator gives.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21942
This is the original calculation, difference between mine and it is that he uses an extremely low-end mass for a Star Destroyer rather than what the canon states it is. I even showed it to him and said the values should be much higher than what he got thanks to this source. In fact, plugging in the number he got for the falling speed of the SD with the mass I listed would yield roughly 7 Teratons of Kinetic Energy.
However, Galen Marek has another much better feat:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21981
He powers a cannon with his own energies that were used to split apart a Star Destroyer, slicing through its shields and all. Considering that you seem knowledgeable about SW tech, I assume you would know how impressive this feat is. For those who aren't:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer
Power output
Peak: >9,28 × 1024 W[7] (over 20% more power than the ISD-I)[8][9]
That's roughly two Petatons of firepower to bring down a Star destroyers' shields. Here's another in-depth calculation for it:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21981
Despite these two feats, Starkiller has shown the ability to destroy AT-ST's/AT-ATs, blasting through a Correlian frigate (I actually think he vaporized half of it although I'm not so sure) survived temps equal to the surfaces of stars, force pushed an army of droids, and a bunch of other feats that I can't really recall rn.
Trying to downplay by saying that his combat performances don't match those feats is straw-grasping. The opposite could be true, that being the enemies he fights are simply that strong. Shouldn't be too surprising, Shaak Tis' presence held back the Dark side from enveloping Felucia hold, only other feat similar to that I can think of would be Thons' feat of sealing Ambrias' Sith spirits in Lake Nath and he had to employ a trick to do so. She is an example of the power Marek confronts.
The feat of powering the canon is obvious bunk considering it's an experimental prototype ion canon. We have absolutely no frame of reference for what he did. He obviously didn't actually give enough power to blast apart a star destroyer because 20 minutes later he needs to draw on electricity pylons to beat Vader. Unless we're going to argue Vader's more durable than a Star Destroyer.
And if we're going to use real science and physics then I suggest we all acknowledge that absolutely no way did he have to content with temperatures comparable to stars. I'm fairly certain it's flat out impossible for the friction to be that severe.
Shouldn't be too surprising, Shaak Tis' presence held back the Dark side from enveloping Felucia hold, only other feat similar to that I can think of would be Thons' feat of sealing Ambrias' Sith spirits in Lake Nath and he had to employ a trick to do so. She is an example of the power Marek confronts.
@The_Merchant
Since the quote function is again not working properly...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aven...ote-SpecPlate-0Mass
359,000 mt (Deadweight)[1]
892,000mt/KPa/atm (Displacement)[1]MT is Megatonnage btw.
I'd say, somebody had clearly no idea about real-life physics, considering he sets mt = kPa, where kPa is a force of 1000 kg being applied on one squaremeter per second. In short: If I'm not totally mistaken, those two units are an order of magnitude apart, with the lesser probably being the correct one.
Pushing, altering, etc. Regardless of the terminology He moved the SD in some way, that isn't debatable. Meaning even moving it barely by a meter off its original course leads to the massive amount of energy the calculator gives.http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21942
This is the original calculation, difference between mine and it is that he uses an extremely low-end mass for a Star Destroyer rather than what the canon states it is. I even showed it to him and said the values should be much higher than what he got thanks to this source. In fact, plugging in the number he got for the falling speed of the SD with the mass I listed would yield roughly 7 Teratons of Kinetic Energy.
Since the number above is obviously false, I doubt the "canon" thing very much.
The calculation is clearly false, though.
1)
Rather than calculating the actual volume of the Star Destroyer, he calculates the volume of a large block with the height, width and length of the Star Destroyer, completely ignoring it's actual shape.
2)
He assumes that the Star Destroyer is moving with terminal velocity. Which is completely senseless. This would require a 13 minute fall through the planets atmosphere, which obviously didn't happen. And, of course, the impact generated by the Star Destroyer at that kind of velocity would deal by far more damage then what is seen in the game and the novel. Furthermore, he ignores the fact, that at terminal velocity, the acceleration of the object would be 0, which means that even very small changes in acceleration would have a visible effect, which is even stated in the novel: "...even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale." But Starkiller doesn't alter the acceleration - he mereley alters the positioning of the Star Destroyer relative to the atmosphere.
3)
He gives the example in "joules", which are still energy exerted per second without taking the fact into account, that Marek obviously needed several minutes to perform his feat.
4)
He, much like you, attributes this to Marek's personal strength in the Force, which is obviously false:
"The Force didn't recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared." - The Force Unleashed, Chapter 30.
Emphasis mine. It is pretty clear, that this feat is not based upon Marek's own personal Force power, but on influencing the Force directly. Something that he would never be able to replicate in combat. Hence his struggle with people he faced in personal confrontation.
However, Galen Marek has another much better feat:http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21981
He powers a cannon with his own energies that were used to split apart a Star Destroyer, slicing through its shields and all. Considering that you seem knowledgeable about SW tech, I assume you would know how impressive this feat is. For those who aren't:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Impe..._Star_Destroyer
Power output
Peak: >9,28 × 1024 W[7] (over 20% more power than the ISD-I)[8][9]That's roughly two Petatons of firepower to bring down a Star destroyers' shields. Here's another in-depth calculation for it:
Equally senseless because of the false assumptions.
1)
Marek just "revives" the weapons original generators, rather then generating all the energy himself.
2)
We have absolutely no idea how that weapon works. For all we know, it merely fires through shields, much like the ion cannons in ESB.
3)
The feat in question is no part of the TFU II novel, which means it is not canon anyway...
Despite these two feats, Starkiller has shown the ability to destroy AT-ST's/AT-ATs, blasting through a Correlian frigate (I actually think he vaporized half of it although I'm not so sure) survived temps equal to the surfaces of stars, force pushed an army of droids, and a bunch of other feats that I can't really recall rn.
You may want to check how much of the stuff does actually happen in the novels, which are the canon representation of the TFU events.
Trying to downplay by saying that his combat performances don't match those feats is straw-grasping. The opposite could be true, that being the enemies he fights are simply that strong. Shouldn't be too surprising, Shaak Tis' presence held back the Dark side from enveloping Felucia hold, only other feat similar to that I can think of would be Thons' feat of sealing Ambrias' Sith spirits in Lake Nath and he had to employ a trick to do so. She is an example of the power Marek confronts.
Hardly. Trying to put his feats into perspective is necessary to find out how he would perform in an actual fight. And if his TK / Lightning were that strong, he wouldn't struggle with certain obstacles in his way as much as he does.
Originally posted by The Merchant
I'll respond later, but I do want to know where you're getting the idea that Marek wasn't using his own power to alter the Star Destroyer? I just thought that was flowery narration, not that he had to use the Force itself to accomplish it or tap into some new reservoir of Force Energy.
I was getting this idea from the novel, which pretty much states this outright on multiple occassions during the scene in question...
"Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The phyical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.[...]
The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn't hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why no the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.[...]
He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account.[...]
Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraithlike. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was poissible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire - yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will." - The Force Unleashed Novel, Chapter.30
Emphasis mine.
It is pretty clear that he taps into reserves, that he has never used before and that he commands the Force to do what he needs to do, instead of simply applying TK against the Star Destroyer. Hence his inability to do something even remotely close before / after that incident.
Whew! Just read through all nine pages of this thread and man is it a shitfest.
Alright, here we go.
To touch on what Marek has to bring to the table, his TK is incredibly powerful, though as AP has been stating, won't really help him with defending against Nox's Sorcery and TP. What he does have is the capability to withstand a drawn out generic Force and Saber fight, but against Sorcery he's downright ****ed. Why I say this is Nox is said to have Sorcery prowess that is nearly unparalleled on the Dark Council. Now granted this does not include the Dread Masters or Vitiate, but it definitely means that she's going to have a huge edge over Marek that he's never faced before. If Marek can successfully disable Nox or stall her in some way the moment the fight begins he may have a chance to start dealing some damage, but I don't see him successfully killing her (or anyone really doing it for the most part, kinda immortal and shit) but at least weakening her to the point where she may (emphasis on may) not have the strength to defeat him fully, but this is a big if and with Nox's Force Shroud and overall survivability/Force defenses I don't see Starkiller getting any upper hands for an extended period of time if at all. Nox's Sorcery can very easily warp his mind/vision and immediately set him off guard for her to quickly gain an upper hand she will unlikely lose. If however he does get a solid opportunity to use his TK and other blunt uses of the Force then he might deal some damage, but not much. Marek is solely brute strength and raw power, nothing technical other than a very low grade mind trick, where Nox has studied the most articulate technical Force techniques and has more than ample defenses to protect herself against anything Marek might throw at her. Not only that but if he does land any major blows her healing is pretty much unmatched among the Sith in the entire mythos (the healing bit is partially speculation though I haven't seen a single Sith use the Force to treat or heal wounds and such in any comparable way to Nox). All in all, I firmly believe Nox has an overwhealming edge in this fight and I don't see many reasons to think otherwise, though Marek may have a slight chance I'm highly doubting he can pull off a victory here. Case and point. 😮💨