Originally posted by -Pr-
Cavill did an okay job, imo, but I think it needs to be remembered that Reeve played an older, more experienced Superman, and he had the chance to do it over several films.
He had more to work with than Cavill did. I don't regard the MOS script to be as bad as some, but at the same time, it was a very tunnel-vision script, almost. We saw a young Superman become Superman. We didn't see him much as Clark, or with Lois. Sure, there was a spark between them, but shit like that needs time to grow. In the Reeve movies they had that.
I hear the point you are making. Realistically, none of the scripts for the Superman movies have been well written. With that in mind Reeve carried those movies with his acting. You make some good points as to why Cavill Superman did not stand out like Reeve’s version. But it did not take movies for that to happen for Reeve it took Superman I.
I believe they both were around the same age in Superman I and MOS when they became Superman. The difference is that Donner clearly showed that Clark spent years learning about earth, his civilization, and his powers while Snyder decided to waste film on Clark trying to find himself in society. That part of the script was what separated Reeve from being an experience superman to Cavill being inexperienced.
It seems that we agree it was definitely the script that hurt Cavill portrayal of Superman. We have to wait until the next movie to see if he will grow on us.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I hear the point you are making. Realistically, none of the scripts for the Superman movies have been well written. With that in mind Reeve carried those movies with his acting. You make some good points as to why Cavill Superman did not stand out like Reeve’s version. But it did not take movies for that to happen for Reeve it took Superman I.I believe they both were around the same age in Superman I and MOS when they became Superman. The difference is that Donner clearly showed that Clark spent years learning about earth, his civilization, and his powers while Snyder decided to waste film on Clark trying to find himself in society. That part of the script was what separated Reeve from being an experience superman to Cavill being inexperienced.
It seems that we agree it was definitely the script that hurt Cavill portrayal of Superman. We have to wait until the next movie to see if he will grow on us.
To be fair, I consider Reeve to be something special. I honestly don't see them as competing either, as Reeve played a very, very different Superman than even Cavill will after 3-4 movies.
I wouldn't call it a waste. I actually took it to be a bit more grounded than Reeve's version, as someone like Clark would have to learn extreme self-control in today's society.
I won't say hurt. I just think, for what Snyder is trying to do, we just need more time to see it develop.
I have some high expectations for the sequel though, let me tell you. They better show us a more grown-up Superman.
Originally posted by -Pr-
To be fair, I consider Reeve to be something special.
I agree he was an all-around great actor and it showed in his display of Superman.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't see them as competing either, as Reeve played a very, very different Superman than even Cavill will after 3-4 movies.
Fair enough. It is a point that may very well be true.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I wouldn't call it a waste. I actually took it to be a bit more grounded than Reeve's version, as someone like Clark would have to learn extreme self-control in today's society.
Our opinions differ on this one. I felt Donner was able to capture this in must less film time than Snyder.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I won't say hurt. I just think, for what Snyder is trying to do, we just need more time to see it develop.
I understand but that is one of the reasons why I believe it hurt MOS more than benefited it. When you pay that much money to go see a movie you are not looking for a TV series where you can see the character develop over episodes and seasons. You want to see the fully developed character now especially after you seen the story already on film through previous versions.
Superman is not a trilogy with a start and ending.
I know, I definitely especially with Zod in the movie wanted and expected to see a mature Superman.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I have some high expectations for the sequel though, let me tell you. They better show us a more grown-up Superman.
I can’t say my expectations are high but I definitely agree Superman better be matured.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I agree he was an all-around great actor and it showed in his display of Superman.Fair enough. It is a point that may very well be true.
Our opinions differ on this one. I felt Donner was able to capture this in must less film time than Snyder.
I understand but that is one of the reasons why I believe it hurt MOS more than benefited it. When you pay that much money to go see a movie you are not looking for a TV series where you can see the character develop over episodes and seasons. You want to see the fully developed character now especially after you seen the story already on film through previous versions.
Superman is not a trilogy with a start and ending.
I know, I definitely especially with Zod in the movie wanted and expected to see a mature Superman.
I can’t say my expectations are high but I definitely agree Superman better be matured.
Right from the start though, WB was pushing this to be more than just one movie. Sure, it's not the same as a TV show, but movies like Iron Man and Nolan's Batman have showed us that you can start off with a character that isn't a hero, and slowly mould them in to the one they will eventually be. A slow burn, if you will.
I actually think that having him start off as the Superman as far along as Reeve was, would have been a mistake. But that's me.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Right from the start though, WB was pushing this to be more than just one movie. Sure, it's not the same as a TV show, but movies like Iron Man and Nolan's Batman have showed us that you can start off with a character that isn't a hero, and slowly mould them in to the one they will eventually be. A slow burn, if you will.
That is true. MOS was being pushed to be more than one movie. As for the examples you used with Batman the title stated Batman Begins so we knew this was a beginner Batman.
Iron Man I am not so sure that is a good example. The stories were pretty separate from each other. I felt he became a mature version of himself by the end of the first movie. Something I never felt about MOS.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I actually think that having him start off as the Superman as far along as Reeve was, would have been a mistake. But that's me.
I actually would not have minded either if the movie did not have Zod in it. Reeve’s superman was clearly gullible in Superman I (Lex tricking him with the surprise in the box) something you could clearly see he wasn’t in Superman II.
There is no way a beginner superman is going to defeat Zod and his companions but Snyder wanted everyone to believe that he could. You need a Superman who is matured in use of his powers in order to defeat Zod and his companions.
Originally posted by Kotor3
That is true. MOS was being pushed to be more than one movie. As for the examples you used with Batman the title stated Batman Begins so we knew this was a beginner Batman.Iron Man I am not so sure that is a good example. The stories were pretty separate from each other. I felt he became a mature version of himself by the end of the first movie. Something I never felt about MOS.
I actually would not have minded either if the movie did not have Zod in it. Reeve’s superman was clearly gullible in Superman I (Lex tricking him with the surprise in the box) something you could clearly see he wasn’t in Superman II.
There is no way a beginner superman is going to defeat Zod and his companions but Snyder wanted everyone to believe that he could. You need a Superman who is matured in use of his powers in order to defeat Zod and his companions.
He did grow during Iron Man, but not in the same way Clark was supposed to.
When MOS starts, Clark is inherently a good, selfless person. His journey is about realising what he can be, and what he can do for the people of Earth. And, to an extent, gaining confidence in himself to trust people with his secret.
I think they're different kinds of growth, but still growth.
=
I think we saw exactly what happens when a beginner Superman tries to fight Zod. He wins, but only by the skin of his teeth. Even in the comics, Superman's great advantage (bar his obvious biological ones) over Kryptonians is the fact that he's been using his powers a lot longer than them. Now, while MOS shortened that gap considerably, it still existed.
If Superman had been the mature, strategic kind of Superman that he would be when he was settled in to life as a superhero, then I'm not sure the same plot would have worked, and it would have required a lot of retooling.
Originally posted by -Pr-
He did grow during Iron Man, but not in the same way Clark was supposed to.When MOS starts, Clark is inherently a good, selfless person. His journey is about realising what he can be, and what he can do for the people of Earth. And, to an extent, gaining confidence in himself to trust people with his secret.
I think they're different kinds of growth, but still growth.
=
I think we saw exactly what happens when a beginner Superman tries to fight Zod. He wins, but only by the skin of his teeth. Even in the comics, Superman's great advantage (bar his obvious biological ones) over Kryptonians is the fact that he's been using his powers a lot longer than them. Now, while MOS shortened that gap considerably, it still existed.
If Superman had been the mature, strategic kind of Superman that he would be when he was settled in to life as a superhero, then I'm not sure the same plot would have worked, and it would have required a lot of retooling.
You make good sound points.
Batman Begins was the first of its kind. There had not been a movie about Batman Beginnings before. Iron Man was new. So those movies could get away with starting from the beginning.
I still feel that in Donner’s version he was able to express the same feelings for Superman in much less film time. The scene in Superman I with him as a teenager and when his father die. Those were quick short film shots that got a lot across in terms of how Clark felt. Then we move on to superman.
For me and I think many others it just did not come across well for Snyder’s MOS. I feel that Zod was not the right villain to have in the movie with you want to start off the story that way. So there was no build up for Zod like there was in the Donner films. It also hurt the image and portrayal of Superman.
Perhaps Snyder did not want to do a Superman Returns movie and put Zod in immediately to make a spectacular blockbuster movie. For me it didn’t work well and it felt rushed and didn’t give Cavill the chance to be a memorable Superman.
Originally posted by Kotor3
You make good sound points.Batman Begins was the first of its kind. There had not been a movie about Batman Beginnings before. Iron Man was new. So those movies could get away with starting from the beginning.
I still feel that in Donner’s version he was able to express the same feelings for Superman in much less film time. The scene in Superman I with him as a teenager and when his father die. Those were quick short film shots that got a lot across in terms of how Clark felt. Then we move on to superman.
For me and I think many others it just did not come across well for Snyder’s MOS. I feel that Zod was not the right villain to have in the movie with you want to start off the story that way. So there was no build up for Zod like there was in the Donner films. It also hurt the image and portrayal of Superman.
Perhaps Snyder did not want to do a Superman Returns movie and put Zod in immediately to make a spectacular blockbuster movie. For me it didn’t work well and it felt rushed and didn’t give Cavill the chance to be a memorable Superman.
I'm not going to argue that Donner didn't do it better; he did. His was a much better, better flowing origin story.
Zod as the villain wouldn't have been my first choice, but that was more because we'd seen it before. I liked what we got in the end, though.
I thought it being rushed was kind of the point, though. Superman had to go from incognito to full-blown public figure in a matter of days, to step up to the plate as it were. For what we got, I won't say it was a masterpiece, but it was good enough.
Sure, there's some "at least it's better than Returns" feelings there, but I genuinely feel like the movie stands up better on its own.
I even watched it again the other night, and sure, while there were iffy parts, I still really enjoyed it. Snyder made it feel like Superman, to me.
Originally posted by Firefly218
Snyder wanted to do a Superman origins movie, and give the villian/plot a lot of back story. The easiest way to do that was to combine Superman's origin with the villians back story, thus he used Zod from Krypton
Originally posted by Firefly218
Snyder wanted to do a Superman origins movie, and give the villian/plot a lot of back story. The easiest way to do that was to combine Superman's origin with the villians back story, thus he used Zod from Krypton
Watching MOS for me was as if Nolan decided to make Dark Night his first installment of Batman. However instead of putting in a mature Batman against the Joker he put a beginner Batman and decided to show tell the story of how and why Bruce Wayne decided to become Batman.
I do not think that would have went over well. Not even for Burton’s version. You have the Joker, you need a mature Batman. You have Zod, you need a mature Superman.
That is how I see it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not going to argue that Donner didn't do it better; he did. His was a much better, better flowing origin story.Zod as the villain wouldn't have been my first choice, but that was more because we'd seen it before. I liked what we got in the end, though.
I thought it being rushed was kind of the point, though. Superman had to go from incognito to full-blown public figure in a matter of days, to step up to the plate as it were. For what we got, I won't say it was a masterpiece, but it was good enough.
Sure, there's some "at least it's better than Returns" feelings there, but I genuinely feel like the movie stands up better on its own.
I even watched it again the other night, and sure, while there were iffy parts, I still really enjoyed it. Snyder made it feel like Superman, to me.
I hear you.
MOS has always been a good superhero action picture. I have always said that. It just wasn’t a good Superman picture. I felt it was a waste of a chance to have an actor as the new face of Superman for our era.
Maybe I need to watch it again. Perhaps the next movie they will hit the jackpot.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I hear you.MOS has always been a good superhero action picture. I have always said that. It just wasn’t a good Superman picture. I felt it was a waste of a chance to have an actor as the new face of Superman for our era.
Maybe I need to watch it again. Perhaps the next movie they will hit the jackpot.
There weren't as many pure "Superman" moments as there could have been, but there were enough for me to make me like it. The action is great; it's everything I could have wanted in a Superman movie. I was even surprised by how much they allowed him to use his speed. I just liked other things too.
Though seriously, wtf was up with those tentacles.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Amy Adams was at least smart, the other Lois was just a ditz..She didn't even do her actual job. She ran around getting in trouble while not accomplishing anything. This Lois least had a mission. And helped Clark out a lot when he needed it.None of the previous superman movies had any relationship between Jor El and Kal, or Jon and Kal. There was literally none..
Avengers had less story and many gaps in it with just as much action and people loved it.
I didn't lie Amy Adams as Lois.
Also, Avengers was really popular, simply cos it's a BETTER movie.
Not looking forward to Batman v Superman.