Top 20 Jedi/Sith of all time

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I've thought about the Dorvin Basals as impressive as well, considering even Luke had a harder time with it than Kyp, but I really am not sure what it means to manipulate them.

The only way I can conceive Mace taking Anakin for a majority is by channeling Anakin's fury with Vaapad and thus increasing his own base capabilities, but he has no such advantage when considering a top 10.

I'm sure I could produce a valid argument for Anakin being superior to Mace at the latter's base strength, if you're willing to take the time to debate it.

I believe it was mentioned in NJO that they took on the characteristics of real black holes, which would explain the difficulty in manipulating them. I would definitely be up to debate that with you, but I'm actually heading to bed, so it will have to be tomorrow. I'm open to a good argument that puts Anakin above Mace, though. Not even Sam Jackson could save that character. How do you go 3 movies openly not trusting him, then look shocked (no pun intended) when he does betray you?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah, and Siraak.

He fought evenly with Zannah in their final duel, and I already said he beat Sirrak.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah, and Siraak.

Sirak beat Bane when Bane was at perhaps his lowest point in the trilogy, and once Bane bounced back he stomped him hard.

As far as skill goes, before his prime he was initially pressing back Kas'im before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai, he outmaneuvered Lsu and hurled her to the ground with an unpredictable maneuver which is something he vastly improved on in DOE, and he beat the shit out of Zannah, who is a defensive master, in their saber fight. He's thrown down with several duelists who are masters in their own right.

He only lost him through using a nexus to topple the pillar and kill Kas'sim he wasn't as skilled, Kas'sim sucked badly enough not kill him outright, and Bane had a nexus handy for his feat. Hardly an indication of his superiority as a duelist. Again who has he defeated in a duel without an amp, orbalisk armor, and or any significant darkside influence?

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
How do you go 3 movies openly not trusting him, then look shocked (no pun intended) when he does betray you?

Plus he got his ****ing hand cut off. I don't care what universe you're from, that's gotta hurt.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah used the nexus for an unblockable trump card.

Sirak beat Bane when Bane was at perhaps his lowest point in the trilogy, and once Bane bounced back he stomped him hard.

Zannah still defeated him in spite of his supposedly "superior skill", superior force ability, and for him being supposedly a better fighter. You're not helping your cause, lol

Also Bane still could've drawn on that Ambrian nexus for his own abilities like he did in every fight he's ever been in. I guess he got old and senile as well as weaker and slower

Originally posted by carthage
Zannah still defeated him in spite of his supposedly "superior skill", superior force ability, and for him being supposedly a better fighter. You're not helping your cause, lol

Also Bane still could've drawn on that Ambrian nexus for his own abilities like he did in every fight he's ever been in. I guess he got old and senile as well as weaker and slower

Which doesn't disprove my assertion of Bane not being able to draw on its latent darkside abilities as he is prone too in every fight due to his lack of skill 👆

Originally posted by carthage
He only lost him through using a nexus to topple the pillar and kill Kas'sim he wasn't as skilled, Kas'sim sucked badly enough not kill him outright, and Bane had a nexus handy for his feat. Hardly an indication of his superiority as a duelist.

Considering that Bane was able to do this after only around two years of lightsaber training, he's got a great deal of skill and natural talent.

Originally posted by carthage
Again who has he defeated in a duel without an amp, orbalisk armor, and or any significant darkside influence?

Again, who has beat him without some sort of advantage?

You have no evidence for Kas'im being a shitty duelist, and I was referring to before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai when Bane was driving him to a quick retreat and almost cutting him several times.

****ing really? A master of all seven forms who can't beat a trainee, in spite of being more skilled, holding back a form he doesn't know, and supposedly being better? Lol. But we've been through this when you lost the debate in the Saesee Tiin vs. Kas'sim thread. It doesn't take talent he practiced with Kas'sim and learned how to defend against his sequences, any padwan could've done that. It speaks volumes about Kas'sim how utterly retarded he was in not closing a victory with tons of advantages

He defeated Zannah in a duel and threw Raskta on her ass before improving immensely in the area of combat that he used to outmaneuver her.

Raskta would've killed him outright without his orbalisks, and again as this is a comparison against other Sith lords on the list its not my business to prove what one of Bane's featless adversaries could take him. Raskta did admirably in spite of Bane having multiple advantages against her, and she likely could kick his ass in a pure saber duel on neutral ground. He beat Zannah with Orbalisks in their first encounter, and on their second he was retarded enough to not draw on the Ambrian nexus and he lost.

Again, who has beat him without some sort of advantage?

Originally posted by carthage
****ing really? A master of all seven forms who can't beat a trainee, in spite of being more skilled, holding back a form he doesn't know, and supposedly being better? Lol. But we've been through this when you lost the debate in the Saesee Tiin vs. Kas'sim thread. It doesn't take talent he practiced with Kas'sim and learned how to defend against his sequences, any padwan could've done that. It speaks volumes about Kas'sim how utterly retarded he was in not closing a victory with tons of advantages

Originally posted by carthage
Raskta would've killed him outright without his orbalisks, and again as this is a comparison against other Sith lords on the list its not my business to prove what one of Bane's featless adversaries could take him. Raskta did admirably in spite of Bane having multiple advantages against her, and she likely could kick his ass in a pure saber duel on neutral ground.

Bane also vastly improved in his defense, the area he lacked against Lsu, and vastly improved his unpredictability and tactical ingenuity, with which he was able to hurl Lsu to the ground.

Originally posted by carthage
He beat Zannah with Orbalisks in their first encounter, and on their second he was retarded enough to not draw on the Ambrian nexus and he lost.

Originally posted by carthage
Again, who has beat him without some sort of advantage?

Kas'im was built up as a master duelist, and Bane's initial success against him prior to the Jar'kai switch, and bringing down the temple on him was meant to showcase power on Bane's part and not weakness on Kas'im's part. The fact that you cannot grasp the author's intent there baffles me.

He has no feats to put him as a master duelist, and again given the conditions of his loss its a good assumption that he wasn't.

Bane's sole advantage was the orbalisk armor. Raskta had two teammates, and battle meditation improving the capabilities of her and her allies while reducing Bane's own capabilities.

Orbalisk armor that amped him, and protected him from lightsaber strikes. Invulnerability was not his sole advantage, he also was massively amped in the duel

Bane also vastly improved in his defense, the area he lacked against Lsu, and vastly improved his unpredictability and tactical ingenuity, with which he was able to hurl Lsu to the ground.

His defense never improved the only reason he was able to best Raskta is the fact he was impervious to her offense and the fact he was amped. There is no evidence he improved until probably DOE, and even then given that he's never beaten anyone but trainee Sirrak, that's only a hypothetical

[qThere are two reasons why drawing on the nexus wouldn't have worked that well. First of all, Zannah tapped deeply into it's energies. Maybe she was already hogging all of the nexus's power. Secondly, even if Bane did tap into the nexus, he still has no abilities to counter the tendrils with. The tendrils were for all intents and purposes an unblockable attack that Zannah couldn't have used without the nexus.

I'm still waiting for an answer to that question.

How am I supposed to respond to this? He's held numerous advantages to all of his opponents. Kas'sim wasn't competent enough to kill him, Raskta would've killed if he had no orbalisks, and Zannah sucks and could never have killed him in an honest duel on open ground. But given that the prior statement was him versus Malgus, Krayt, Vader, and Kun and their placements I don't see how this is relevant

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah used the nexus for an unblockable trump card.

So? While fueled by the power of a Nexus she was able to use powers she may or may not have been able to apply effectively regularly. Bane's power was also being fueled equally by Ambria, so it's it's not like the setting gave Zannah an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by carthage
He has no feats to put him as a master duelist, and again given the conditions of his loss its a good assumption that he wasn't.

Originally posted by carthage
Orbalisk armor that amped him, and protected him from lightsaber strikes. Invulnerability was not his sole advantage, he also was massively amped in the duel

Originally posted by carthage
His defense never improved the only reason he was able to best Raskta is the fact he was impervious to her offense and the fact he was amped. There is no evidence he improved until probably DOE, and even then given that he's never beaten anyone but trainee Sirrak, that's only a hypothetical

The Orbalisks probably hindered the move he used to throw Lsu on her ass come to think of it. The weight of them would've lessened his agility, and it clouded his judgement. Again as of DOE he perfects the unpredictable nature of his style.

Originally posted by carthage
How am I supposed to respond to this? He's held numerous advantages to all of his opponents. Kas'sim wasn't competent enough to kill him, Raskta would've killed if he had no orbalisks, and Zannah sucks and could never have killed him in an honest duel on open ground. But given that the prior statement was him versus Malgus, Krayt, Vader, and Kun and their placements I don't see how this is relevant

And Bane besting Zannah in a duel and surviving Kas'im do not count as "unfair" advantages for Bane that somehow invalidate his feats.

Essentially you are dismissing his feats against certain characters because said characters didn't do that well against him, which is bad logic in and of itself. Essentially you are saying "Bane defeating this character is not impressive because that character didn't beat him."

In any case, it's like 3 in the morning so I'm probably gonna get some sleep.

Kas'im was built up as a master duelist, and Bane's initial success against him prior to the Jar'kai switch, and bringing down the temple on him was meant to showcase power on Bane's part and not weakness on Kas'im's part. The fact that you cannot grasp the author's intent there baffles me.

Being 'built up' isn't the same as having actual dueling feats and having beaten individuals of high caliber. Kas'sim has nothing to prove other than that he sucks badly enough to be killed by a trainee. Sorry. Feats > "authors intent" and or whatever nebulous idea you have to compensate for Kas'sim's lack of everything

And he had the counteramp of battle meditation working against him. Also Lsu and her allies count as being massively amped by concentrated battle meditation.

Who cares he still was protected to 99% of their lightsaber blows, still had a comparable amp and they were still featless opponents (aside from Raskta)

[quoteBecause every opponent that has faced Bane also had a set of advantages of their own.[/quote]

What lol? He was still supposedly more skilled by your estimation. You didn't successfully refute the idea that Bane could draw on Ambria for a nexus, and secondly even if they had an "Advantage" Bane had one that trumped them i,e a nexus or orbalisks. None of them were also ever on par with an opponent that could beat him by virtue of their own abilities either

And Bane besting Zannah in a duel and surviving Kas'im do not count as "unfair" advantages for Bane that somehow invalidate his feats.

They do when he's covered in orbalisks, and relies on a nexus to kill Kas'sim 👆. Its not hard to follow without orbalisks he wasn't able to beat Zannah, because he was older, weaker, slower, etc. Its an easy line of thought to dollow

Essentially you are dismissing his feats against certain characters because said characters didn't do that well against him, which is bad logic in and of itself. Essentially you are saying "Bane defeating this character is not impressive because that character didn't beat him."

All of Bane's opponents were weaker than him, and he had significant amps that even trumped whatever advantage they had. This does not bode well when placing him with duelists that have fought their opponents and beaten them through their own skill, and or fought opponents that were close to their level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So? While fueled by the power of a Nexus she was able to use powers she may or may not have been able to apply effectively regularly. Bane's power was also being fueled equally by Ambria, so it's it's not like the setting gave Zannah an unfair advantage.

It gave her an ability she may not have had access to otherwise, making her victory circumstantial.

It didn't give her anything, it was an ability she had in her arsenal. If the Nexus's power allotted her the power to correctly use it, cool. Bane was also receiving a boost in power. I don't see how it's at all unfair.

It's not an ability she regularly has in her arsenal though. You said situational advantage. Zannah could (probably) only use that attack in that situation. Its an advantage to her because she not only had access to the same boost Bane (might have) had access to, but also access to an unblockable technique that she (probably) couldn't use in a neutral setting.

It's not unfair, but it was situational.

Sirak was also situational btw. Bane had lost most of his connection to the darkside due to personal issues. His unbalanced mindset severely weakened him.

What do you mean "might have"? Are you seriously implying that a Dark Side Nexus has no effect on Bane, while at the same time arguing that Zannah gained an advantage because of it?

The text says that the power had been "buried for centuries". Remember they were on Ambria and Thon had sealed the darkside nexus away.