Top 20 Jedi/Sith of all time

Started by Emperordmb7 pages

Originally posted by carthage
I make three sometimes more and sometimes they gain substantial and interesting posts.

Coming up with topics for discussion that others provide clever insight on does not count as clever insight or intelligence of your own.

Originally posted by carthage
Coincidentally, the only people I seem to draw ire from are you three morons

Very few people have the patience to waste their time with you.

Originally posted by carthage
(who I've beaten in arguments before).

You claiming you have beaten us in arguments holds no proof. Especially when you are the only one who seems to think so, and have disregarded canon and used biased and fallacious logic.

Those are hardly irrelevant quotes. It is proof that your logic is fallacious.

If you claim that one character defeating their opponent is unimpressive because their opponent didn't beat them, then that is fallacious logic.

Says the guy that believes Bane is superior to people who have more varied feats, have defeated more opponents by virtue of their skill, and who have just as many if not more accolades and showings than Bane.

You claimed Kun's defeat of him was impressive, and you claimed Baas>Kas'im.

Its more impressive because Kun beat him on two occasions by virtue of his skill not with a Lehon amp or nexus. I never made any claim Vodo was superior to Kas'sim. Try again.

Calling characters "weak" "shit" and "fodder" when those are extremely powerful according to canon counts as you completely disregarding canon.

Uh no? its trolling plain and simple. I've never dismissed the fact Bane and Vitiate are powerful force users. Just that their off nexus feats aren't in line with their supposed power, and that they aren't as strong as the fighters in question.

Bane completely shitstomped Sirak, who was head and shoulders above all the other students. He was driving back Kas'im before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai. His outmaneuvering of Lsu, who is highly impressive in her own right (the orbalisks do not invalidate the feat of that maneuver). He beat the shit out of Zannah in the lightsaber portion of their final duel. The logistics and statistics of his style are also highly impressive.

What part of showings without a nexus, amp, and or boost do you not understand?

Very few people have the patience to waste their time with you.

Again most other users on this forum don't abnormally worship the characters in the SW universe like you, Neph, and Ant. I don't deliberately bother them because nothing I say bothers them. Is it any coincidence that you three losers are the only ones that make a fuss about my posts?

Originally posted by carthage
Says the guy that believes Bane is superior to people who have more varied feats, have defeated more opponents by virtue of their skill, and who have just as many if not more accolades and showings than Bane.

I defend my assertions, you blatantly apply fallacious logic only to characters you hate.

Originally posted by carthage
Its more impressive because Kun beat him on two occasions by virtue of his skill not with a Lehon amp or nexus. I never made any claim Vodo was superior to Kas'sim. Try again.

If you are saying Vodo is around the same level as Kas'im, who you consider to be shitty, then how does beating him count as impressive by your logic.

Yes, you made the assertion that Vodo was superior because he duels with apprentices.

Originally posted by carthage
Uh no? its trolling plain and simple. I've never dismissed the fact Bane and Vitiate are powerful force users. Just that their off nexus feats aren't in line with their supposed power, and that they aren't as strong as the fighters in question.

Trolling does not help your credibility or the validity of your word in any way.

And all of these quotes of you calling them weak come from debates that you were trying to provide arguments for.

Originally posted by carthage
What part of showings without a nexus, amp, and or boost do you not understand?

He had no unfair advantage for any of those feats I listed.

Not to butt-in on the argument, but Kun's first defeat of Baas wasn't due to skill. He was defeated by Baas, but refused to yield. Instead, he took Crado's lightsaber and unleashed an angry and very aggressive assault on Baas. The anger-fueled barrage broke the staff, but it wasn't by pure skill. Now, the fight in the Senate was more of a skill fight, but remember, Kun's style was completely foreign to Vodo, so he was at a disadvantage (like Bane against Kas'im's Jar'kai).

Sorry to interrupt this wonderful nagging fest that's crowded the topic, but... Well, I'm gonna.

I'm open to a good argument that puts Anakin above Mace, though.

Well, I'll start this off rather simply:

"This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.”

To further the point made in the above passage, I'd redirect you to Anakin's performance against Count Dooku:

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
---
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will.
---
Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

Comparatively, if anything Mace's comparisons to Dooku favor the latter:

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.
---
Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
---
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2151174-new_picture__13_.jpg

Not only does he outshine Mace in their respective performances concerning Count Dooku, but he's also stronger:

"Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber."
---
"Every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike."
---
"Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks. Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad."

As well as faster:

"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze"
---
"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see"
---
"Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light."
---
"He was in the Force, to be sure, but deep in some other zone as well, as the world unfolded in slow motion."
---
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139240-new_picture__65_.jpg

Anakin's largest advantage over Mace, however, is the discrepancy of power between the two:

"This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation."
---
"Not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing.
---
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/12/41/88/screen14.png
---
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139243-new_picture__68_.jpg
---
"But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it. "Dooku!" he howled, with such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse."

Description of the hall:

"The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high [90 feet] and three times that [270 feet] in circumference."

Dooku's reaction:

"If he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized."

For anyone who argues that Mace would overcome Anakin by virtue of greater skill, I'd refute that it won't be enough, because Anakin is no less skilled than Mace:

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you."
---
"An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace"
---
And here's just something I myself find rather impressive:

"Blue blade flashing, he cut a swath through the super battle droids, opening their burnished carapaces with diagonal slashes, cutting off blaster arms, hobbling the droids by deflecting bolts into their hermetically sealed knees. Not letting a shot get past him, so that the commandos following in his wake"

I could go on, but I think my point is pretty clear by this point. I'll provide the rest if you decide to provide a counter argument.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sorry to interrupt this wonderful nagging fest that's crowded the topic, but... Well, I'm gonna.

Well, I'll start this off rather simply:

"This is Anakin Skywalker. [B]The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.”

To further the point made in the above passage, I'd redirect you to Anakin's performance against Count Dooku:

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
---
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will.
---
Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

Comparatively, if anything Mace's comparisons to Dooku favor the latter:

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.
---
Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
---
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2151174-new_picture__13_.jpg

Not only does he outshine Mace in their respective performances concerning Count Dooku, but he's also stronger:

"Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber."
---
"Every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike."
---
"Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks. Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad."

As well as faster:

"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze"
---
"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see"
---
"Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light."
---
"He was in the Force, to be sure, but deep in some other zone as well, as the world unfolded in slow motion."
---
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139240-new_picture__65_.jpg

Anakin's largest advantage over Mace, however, is the discrepancy of power between the two:

"This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation."
---
"Not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing.
---
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/12/41/88/screen14.png
---
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139243-new_picture__68_.jpg
---
"But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it. "Dooku!" he howled, with such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse."

Description of the hall:

"The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high [90 feet] and three times that [270 feet] in circumference."

Dooku's reaction:

"If he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized."

For anyone who argues that Mace would overcome Anakin by virtue of greater skill, I'd refute that it won't be enough, because Anakin is no less skilled than Mace:

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you."
---
"An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace"
---
And here's just something I myself find rather impressive:

"Blue blade flashing, he cut a swath through the super battle droids, opening their burnished carapaces with diagonal slashes, cutting off blaster arms, hobbling the droids by deflecting bolts into their hermetically sealed knees. Not letting a shot get past him, so that the commandos following in his wake"

I could go on, but I think my point is pretty clear by this point. I'll provide the rest if you decide to provide a counter argument. [/B]

I want to provide a counter argument (I really do), but everything I was going to counter with has been refuted in one form or another by the examples you posted. Hmm... How about this: When Anakin defeated Dooku, he tapped into the dark side to do it. Since it's stated that Mace is probably the only Jedi (minus Yoda) capable of dueling Dooku evenly, Anakin would have a similar level of difficulty with him. Unlike with Dooku, when Anakin taps into the darkside against Windu, that will play into Windu's hands, because of Vaapad. Even without tapping into the darkside, Mace's Shatterpoint ability should give him the edge against Anakin. Also, are you suggesting Anakin could outduel Sidious?

I can conceive Mace taking Anakin for a majority is by channeling Anakin's fury with Vaapad and thus increasing his own base capabilities,but in a top ten list we would be discussing each candidate's base strength, rather than strength they gain from outward sources.

I'm sure I could produce a valid argument for Anakin being superior to Mace at the latter's base strength, if you're willing to take the time to debate it.

I mentioned all of this when I offered to debate their position. 😬

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I mentioned all of this when I offered to debate their position. facepalm

My apologies, it's been a long week and I'm fried. Going by what you've been kind enough to submit, and since this is base strength fight on neutral ground, I see them as comparable, with Skywalker getting the edge. I still see Mace as one of the best duelists of the era, but with Skywalker's skill in Form V, as noted by Dooku himself, and Mace's own revelation that he's one of the most powerful of the Order and only getting stronger, I'll give it to Anakin. Now, where would you see Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
My apologies, it's been a long week and I'm fried.

It's fine, I was just reminding you.

Now that it's covered, what are your thoughts regarding the situation?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's fine, I was just reminding you.

Now that it's covered, what are your thoughts regarding the situation?

I actually forgot about the original Clone Wars cartoon, so it was nice to see that again. Anakin's learning curve has taken him from a promising Padawan to an accomplished and powerful Jedi Knight. I also think that as arrogant as Anakin can seem, Mace is very prideful, himself, which could work against him. If Windu had taken Anakin with his team of Jedi, they might not have all died. I can't see Sidious slaughtering Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto, then claiming he's a weak old man and Anakin buying it. I'm good with dropping Windu down, but my only question at this point, regarding Anakin, would be just how accomplished/powerful is he, by ROTS?

My only question at this point, regarding Anakin, would be just how accomplished/powerful is he, by ROTS?

How powerful is he? He caused a Control Facility that stood 90 feet tall and 90 feet in diameter to collapse/implode with a Force Scream, and had almost infinite Force reserves.

How accomplished is he? He was to the Clone Wars what Revan was to the Mandalorian Wars--He was the Republic's champion, and the warrior who defeated Darth Tyranus.

When Dooku himself was a Jedi, he was considered to be the greatest produced by the Jedi Order.

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

I myself regard him to be even more able than the Hero of Tython, at least as far as raw combat ability goes. (I mean, this guy took on both Count Dooku and Assaj Ventress simultaneously at one point.)

Jedi list.
#1. Luke Skywalker
#2. Yoda
#3. Mace Windu and HoT(I blame you for this Nephthys!]
#4. Revan and The Exile
#5. The Barsen'thor
#6. Satale Shan
#7.Obi-Wan Kenobi and Shaak Ti!
#8.Jaina Solo and Cade Skywalker
#9. Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr(both are quite similar imo)
#10. Nomi Sunrider and Bastila Shan(Battle Meditation FTW)

Top Sith lords.

#1. Darth Sidious
#2. Emperor Vitiate
#3. Marka Ragnos
#4. Darth Bane
#5. Darth Plagueis
#6. The Sith Triumvirate
#7 Darth Zannah
#9. Darth Vader/Darth Krayt
#10 Darth Maul and Count

Shaak Ti?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Shaak Ti?

How many jedi can you think of that were able to turn a dark sided place like felucia and tame it with their very presence on the planet?

Thon?

She also gave Marek a tough fight

To be fair, though, it wasn't Marek at his peak. Also, she had the edge is sabers.

Galen marek never reached his peak

His TFU peak, then. Marek was more powerful on the Death Star than he was on Felucia.