Khan Noonien Singh vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by quanchi112
So Sheev won.

Prove it. In the comic it was stated she was weakened so prove it was an amp.

The force wasn't used to heal Anakin. 😂

Dude, was kept alive by science.

Khan's blood wouldn't allow her to quit. She's so weak.

Khan wins.

Do we agree that the two are stalemates as neither coul successfully overpower the other and that yoda was able to redirect his lightning into a ball of energy but couldn't successfully put it back onto him it exploded in the middle not on one or the other.

Dathomir is an amp. Research it.

Read Darth Sidious respect thread under midiclorian manipulation read that entire section. It's not that long.

Refer to the post above.

Prove it.

Still hasn't been proven. While the Sidious side have brought up multiple arguments that you can't refute. Such as what is to stop Sidious from taking his weapons and then what is to stop him form ragdolling him, or what is to just stop him form ragdolling khan, or speed blitzing him, or killing him with lightning, or slicing him with his saber, or crushing some vital organ of his, or choking him to death, or killing him with his own weapon?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Do we agree that the two are stalemates as neither coul successfully overpower the other and that yoda was able to redirect his lightning into a ball of energy but couldn't successfully put it back onto him it exploded in the middle not on one or the other.

Dathomir is an amp. Research it.

Read Darth Sidious respect thread under midiclorian manipulation read that entire section. It's not that long.

Refer to the post above.

Prove it.

Still hasn't been proven. While the Sidious side have brought up multiple arguments that you can't refute. Such as what is to stop Sidious from taking his weapons and then what is to stop him form ragdolling him, or what is to just stop him form ragdolling khan, or speed blitzing him, or killing him with lightning, or slicing him with his saber, or crushing some vital organ of his, or choking him to death, or killing him with his own weapon?

Prove it in son of dathomir 4.

Nah.

Onus is on you.

Khan guns him down first. His feats are quicker than Sheev's feats. He doesn't just rag doll and defeat his opponents like you claim. Khan's portrayals are far more truth less in battle than I'd rather cackle and talk some more like Sheev.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sheev won the fight.

Prove it in son of dathomir 4.

Nah.

Onus is on you.

Khan guns him down first. His feats are quicker than Sheev's feats. He doesn't just rag doll and defeat his opponents like you claim. Khan's portrayals are far more truth less in battle than I'd rather cackle and talk some more like Sheev.

As long as we agree that the two characters themselves are stalemates.

Dathomir is a nexus everyone knows this.

Well then you,will never know then.

That means what exactly?

So he can shoot Palptine faster than he can do,what he did to Dooku from over light years away? Now I know you're a fanboy. How can he take his gun out fast enough before Palptine just has to do something so small. Um are you sure look at Darth maul. He ragdolled him and had maul begging for mercy. So yes he can defeat them through ragdolling. He also has force lighting or force choke or his lightsabers. Also very first move for Sidious could be to,take the weapons away by using TK like he did on the pods. Considering the gun is bolted down and it's not as heavy as a pod it would take him no time to lift/take as it took him very little time to lift as seen in the movie. So with all this khan has to many obstacles he has to overcome while Sidious has very few and his are much easier to avoid and can be solved by doing one thing. Taking away his guns and then he got nothing left to worry about.

Palps wins with the utmost of ease

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
As long as we agree that the two characters themselves are stalemates.

Dathomir is a nexus everyone knows this.

Well then you,will never know then.

That means what exactly?

So he can shoot Palptine faster than he can do,what he did to Dooku from over light years away? Now I know you're a fanboy. How can he take his gun out fast enough before Palptine just has to do something so small. Um are you sure look at Darth maul. He ragdolled him and had maul begging for mercy. So yes he can defeat them through ragdolling. He also has force lighting or force choke or his lightsabers. Also very first move for Sidious could be to,take the weapons away by using TK like he did on the pods. Considering the gun is bolted down and it's not as heavy as a pod it would take him no time to lift/take as it took him very little time to lift as seen in the movie. So with all this khan has to many obstacles he has to overcome while Sidious has very few and his are much easier to avoid and can be solved by doing one thing. Taking away his guns and then he got nothing left to worry about.

Prove she was amped in that comic. The comic states she was weakened.

Dooku wasn't in the same room. This is different. Sheev can't tk choke him without visually seeing him that far away. 😂

He didn't defeat Maul with the tk. He won't defeat Khan with it either. Quit making shit up

Speculation. Khan has quicker feats than Sheev. Evidence talks than the dummy who couldn't mount a defense against a one armed Sith without his saber. 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Watch Jango Fett vs. Obi and tell me a skilled combatant is nothing when stacked up against an elite Jedi. I am here to dispel the myths.

Then why are you so bad at it?

You realize that debating isn't like grinding in an MMO and repeatedly getting your face kicked in won't make you any better?

Originally posted by quanchi112
[B]It is since you failed to point out Windu only won due to his jetpack being damaged so he couldn't create more space between the two of them when he charged him. Leave your personal feelings out of this. If you can't debate me without losing your cool then please log out.

But see, you're actually working against your own position without even realizing it. One important factor to fighting is actually situation awareness. In fact, this is very critical in modern combat. It's less of a problem when you have a one on one fight with only two people in the area, but it's very important when fighting in groups.

And this is why your argument just fails. Jango's jetpack getting damage is a perfect example of how situation awareness can affect the outcome of a battle. You can be the superior warrior, but if you find something to twist your ankle on in a fight, you are so boned it isn't even funny. Like, you have to be far superior to your opponent to be able to carry on.

And this brings into account the problem with fighting jedi or sith; enhanced situation awareness. Now, it isn't perfect. We know that. You can overwhelm a jedi with sheer numbers either to make it too difficult for most jedi or sith to respond to all of the attacks or simply to make it physically impossible. We know that even someone like Vader and Palpatine have their limits.

You can't prove it and I unlike you I offer evidence. Khan needs one blast to kill Palpatine.

Ironically, you've proven the opposite. In a chaotic fight, Mace didn't get a scratch on him, while Jango, an experienced bounty hunter and mercenary, had his jet pack torn up and it cost him his life. Palpatine is going to sense Khan--he's going to sense the danger to himself. He's going to sense Khan's eagerness.

Palpatine is old and in pathetic shape.

Yep. You can tell an old man is in pathetic shape when he takes on a 30-40 year old and a 20-30 year old with 2 to 1 odds and handily beats both silly while laughing manically. You can look up that fight on youtube, Sideous vs Darth Maul & Savage Oppress.

Palpatine's ruthlessness and cunning aren't relevant here. He also hid in the shadows and acted in secrecy. He begged for his life against Windu who ironically beat him as well as Jango. Palpatine didn't have a beast come out and break his equipment to steer the fight in his favor though.

They are relevant, but what's really astonishing is that you honestly think Palpatine lost that fight. Palpatine threw that fight. Horrible fighting by the 70 year old actor aside, Palpatine killed a handful of masters that had gone up against him. And Mace Windu wasn't a slouch either. Yoda, Mace, Kenobi, and Anakin were all the strongest jedi of their time. Three of them were masters and Anakin obviously had the power (but not the wisdom) of a master.

But Palpatine wanted Anakin. And we know how good Palpatine is at seeing into the future. I doubt his victory was assured, but it's pretty much hinted at that Palpatine had foreseen the incident and played it to his advantage. Moreover, his the physical deformities that he was reinforced his claims of the jedi's betrayal even though we saw that it had no physical effect upon him.

Khan would break him. He's far too intelligent and well armed to lose to someone with Palpatine's abilities.

No, Khan wouldn't.

And you don't understand what it means to break someone. Ironically, it is what would happen to Khan. Not because Palpatine can almost effortlessly choke Khan from an entirely different room. Not because Palpatine is physically capable of hurling Khan into a wall until his nothing but shattered bone and blood--but because that is what Palpatine does.

Palpatine is going to hold back, tease victory before Khan's nose--then frustrate him at every turn. And after Khan has been driven into a blind rage, after Palpatine lets him spend it entirely...then Palpatine will be there, over a tired and weak Khan. And there will be no mercy. Only a long, suffering death while Khan's pride is grounded beneath Palpatine's heel.

And we know that Khan's pride is one of his greatest weaknesses. Along with his passions. Before Khan dies, Palpatine is going to assure him that everyone he ever cared for is going to suffer a far worse fate.

Originally posted by One_True_Mith
No, Khan wouldn't.

And you don't understand what it means to break someone. Ironically, it is what would happen to Khan. Not because Palpatine can almost effortlessly choke Khan from an entirely different room. Not because Palpatine is physically capable of hurling Khan into a wall until his nothing but shattered bone and blood--but because that is what Palpatine does.

Palpatine is going to hold back, tease victory before Khan's nose--then frustrate him at every turn. And after Khan has been driven into a blind rage, after Palpatine lets him spend it entirely...then Palpatine will be there, over a tired and weak Khan. And there will be no mercy. Only a long, suffering death while Khan's pride is grounded beneath Palpatine's heel.

And we know that Khan's pride is one of his greatest weaknesses. Along with his passions. Before Khan dies, Palpatine is going to assure him that everyone he ever cared for is going to suffer a far worse fate.

f@cken magic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do not agree. Sheev is more powerful.

Prove she was amped in that comic. The comic states she was weakened.

Dooku wasn't in the same room. This is different. Sheev can't tk choke him without visually seeing him that far away. 😂

He didn't defeat Maul with the tk. He won't defeat Khan with it either. Quit making shit up

Speculation. Khan has quicker feats than Sheev. Evidence talks than the dummy who couldn't mount a defense against a one armed Sith without his saber. 😂

I would love to agree with you as Sheev is my favorite character however I can't agree as he couldn't overpower yoda in their lightning duel.

Dathomir is a nexus that's all you need to know. If you want to find out do the research.

Still he was light years away so whether they were in the same room or not he did it without being in the same vicinity. He also doesn't need to see the person or even be in the same room or anything as seen in his battle with Darth maul and savage oppress where he effortlessly chokes two guards with his mind without even seeing them or being in the same room.

Here we go again. He begged for mercy after he got TKd. Quit being a fanboy. He can and will if he chooses to take down khan with TK if he wishes and he will have khan just like maul begging for mercy.

I now know that you are a brick wall and really have no brain. Sidious doesn't even need to lift his hands to choke khan. Once the battle starts all he hash to do is just think and that takes very little time hardly any way less time than it will take Kahn to do anything and then he can jaunt disarm him of his weapons while he is choking him for safe measure and then just shock him and thus khan is defeated. This is an easy win. The polls don't lie.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
f@cken magic.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I would love to agree with you as Sheev is my favorite character however I can't agree as he couldn't overpower yoda in their lightning duel.

Dathomir is a nexus that's all you need to know. If you want to find out do the research.

Still he was light years away so whether they were in the same room or not he did it without being in the same vicinity. He also doesn't need to see the person or even be in the same room or anything as seen in his battle with Darth maul and savage oppress where he effortlessly chokes two guards with his mind without even seeing them or being in the same room.

Here we go again. He begged for mercy after he got TKd. Quit being a fanboy. He can and will if he chooses to take down khan with TK if he wishes and he will have khan just like maul begging for mercy.

I now know that you are a brick wall and really have no brain. Sidious doesn't even need to lift his hands to choke khan. Once the battle starts all he hash to do is just think and that takes very little time hardly any way less time than it will take Kahn to do anything and then he can jaunt disarm him of his weapons while he is choking him for safe measure and then just shock him and thus khan is defeated. This is an easy win. The polls don't lie.

Despite that you claim that she was stated as being weaker. That's a fact.

Sheev can't just choke people out without being nearby or seeing them. If that were the case he'd annihilate those he wanted to. He didn't kill Yoda after he escaped because he had no clue where he was.

He knew he couldn't win at this point. He didn't they in son of dathomir. He openly defied Sheev. Amazing. Sheev needed Anakin to save him. He begged for his life. He's a weak, coward sometimes.

He has to think and we see sometimes he moves his hands. We see him use tk to move the pods. It still takes time and isn't as instinctive to him as Khan shooting a gun.

Khan ftw.

Originally posted by One_True_Mith
Then why are you so bad at it?

You realize that debating isn't like grinding in an MMO and repeatedly getting your face kicked in won't make you any better?

But see, you're actually working against your own position without even realizing it. One important factor to fighting is actually situation awareness. In fact, this is very critical in modern combat. It's less of a problem when you have a one on one fight with only two people in the area, but it's very important when fighting in groups.

And this is why your argument just fails. Jango's jetpack getting damage is a perfect example of how situation awareness can affect the outcome of a battle. You can be the superior warrior, but if you find something to twist your ankle on in a fight, you are so boned it isn't even funny. Like, you have to be far superior to your opponent to be able to carry on.

And this brings into account the problem with fighting jedi or sith; enhanced situation awareness. Now, it isn't perfect. We know that. You can overwhelm a jedi with sheer numbers either to make it too difficult for most jedi or sith to respond to all of the attacks or simply to make it physically impossible. We know that even someone like Vader and Palpatine have their limits.

Ironically, you've proven the opposite. In a chaotic fight, Mace didn't get a scratch on him, while Jango, an experienced bounty hunter and mercenary, had his jet pack torn up and it cost him his life. Palpatine is going to sense Khan--he's going to sense the danger to himself. He's going to sense Khan's eagerness.

Yep. You can tell an old man is in pathetic shape when he takes on a 30-40 year old and a 20-30 year old with 2 to 1 odds and handily beats both silly while laughing manically. You can look up that fight on youtube, Sideous vs Darth Maul & Savage Oppress.

They are relevant, but what's really astonishing is that you honestly think Palpatine lost that fight. Palpatine threw that fight. Horrible fighting by the 70 year old actor aside, Palpatine killed a handful of masters that had gone up against him. And Mace Windu wasn't a slouch either. Yoda, Mace, Kenobi, and Anakin were all the strongest jedi of their time. Three of them were masters and Anakin obviously had the power (but not the wisdom) of a master.

But Palpatine wanted Anakin. And we know how good Palpatine is at seeing into the future. I doubt his victory was assured, but it's pretty much hinted at that Palpatine had foreseen the incident and played it to his advantage. Moreover, his the physical deformities that he was reinforced his claims of the jedi's betrayal even though we saw that it had no physical effect upon him.

No, Khan wouldn't.

And you don't understand what it means to break someone. Ironically, it is what would happen to Khan. Not because Palpatine can almost effortlessly choke Khan from an entirely different room. Not because Palpatine is physically capable of hurling Khan into a wall until his nothing but shattered bone and blood--but because that is what Palpatine does.

Palpatine is going to hold back, tease victory before Khan's nose--then frustrate him at every turn. And after Khan has been driven into a blind rage, after Palpatine lets him spend it entirely...then Palpatine will be there, over a tired and weak Khan. And there will be no mercy. Only a long, suffering death while Khan's pride is grounded beneath Palpatine's heel.

And we know that Khan's pride is one of his greatest weaknesses. Along with his passions. Before Khan dies, Palpatine is going to assure him that everyone he ever cared for is going to suffer a far worse fate.

I do agree situational awareness is key but a monster rampaging in his direction in the middle of an altercation against Windu muddies the waters. Jango needs to completely focus on Windu not what's around him. Windu didn't have his saber destroyed by the beast but Jango did. Jango isn't the same warrior Khan is but he's a threat to Windu which is my point. Jango did lack the situational awareness to deal with everything but Windu's victory is still with a giant asterisk. Khan has the situational awareness to take down anywhere from 20-30 some Klingons and two ships with relative ease.

Unlike Khan Jango failed here. I never once said Jango was even. Enter than Windu but he's still a very obvious threat to the arguably greatest lightsaber wielding duelist from the Star Wars films. This thread is also about Khan who has superhuman situational awareness. References the Klingon scene in which he easily decimated the Klingon patrols.

Jedi and Sith possess high skill with their force and light saber dueling. That's why. Their situational awareness isn't at the top of the spectrum. Take into consideration the train wreck of the battle at Geonosis. Windu objected at Dooku's boastful claims they were impossibly outnumbered. We later saw despite the lack of skill the droids alone sandwiches them in. Despite a larger group of Jedi that consisted of Windu, Kenobi, and Skywalker, etc. they were defeated. Windu showed up and despite objecting didn't have the situational awareness to realize they were going to lose had Yoda not showed up with the clones.

Everyone usually has limits in fiction but their highs aren't as high as Khan's ceiling. That is the point. Physically this is a no brainer.

Khan isn't Jango. You keep interchanging the two like they possess the same strength, intelligence, skill and weaponry. None of this is the case so please cease with your insufferable character swapping. It's annoying and completely irrelevant. Mace's robes were burned. He wasn't injured but Jango's jet pack was damaged by a beast this taking away his ability to create a separation with the two. Sheev didn't sense Yoda's force push. Sheev is overconfident and stupid on occasion. He didn't even sense Vader might turn on him while he was busying torturing his son right in front of him.

Sheev is in pathetic shape but what makes him good is his force amping, saber skills, and force knowledge. He took on two opponents he both had in experience, force power, and light saber skill. Maul managed to press him and Opress was someone Maul beat in under ten seconds. Kenobi also wrecked him when he got aggressive as well.

There's nothing to suggest he threw that fight. It's fanboys such as yourself who just insert their own ridiculous opinions to justify why he lost. Sheev killed those worthless Jedi masters in less time then he defeated Opress. Feats and legacies matter. These guys were shit. Windu wasn't. Windu won. Lucas states in rots commentary that Windu overcame him. That doesn't translate into he threw the fight. There is no evidence in the film at all to support that claim. None.

Sheev was a master at manipulating and that's what he did considering the circumstances he was in. Anakin was on the verge of a breakdown because he never got over the loss of his mother. He was ripe to play up on his fear of losing his shitty wife. Sheev was scarred but he used his physical deformity to his advantage at the senate as well.

They are in the same room so irrelevant point. When has Sheev broke someone's bones by repeatedly force slamming them over and over again. We see him slam both Maul and Opress but no bones were broken. Did he continue to engage them physically; abso****inglutely. This isn't hey you jump into Sheev and fight how you want to fight while ignoring his portrayals, junior. You biased fanboys are all the same.

That may work against someone like Opress or a weaker Jedi but they don't possess the weaponry, ruthlessness, and skill Khan brings to the table. Khan has cellular regeneration to the point his blood has brought Kirk back to life in the proper setting. So acting as if he is going to get tired is sheer and complete ignorance on the character. At this point I have to ask have you seen the film ?

Khan is utterly ruthless and went up against the leader of starfleet and the enterprise crew all on his own. Galactic might against one superhuman badass. Khan set the stage for the meeting after he had that building bombed. He then attacked and murdered many starfleet officers. He later got aboard USS Vengeance and crushed Admiral Marcus' cranium. Khan destroyed the man who tried to use him for his own personal gain. Khan alone on the run did all this.

Sheev was successful because he stirred the pot in the shadows. Once he was found out Windu had him at his mercy. He begged for his miserable life. After that he attacked the Jedi before they could,prepare with the backing of the clone empire. Well orchestrated olan but mainly done by hiding in the shadows playing both sides. He couldn't survive on his own like Khan. Hell, even Yoda found a way to get a one on one confrontation after he eradicated the majority of the Jedi.

Khan isn't a Jedi and is too ruthless, too armed, and too skilled to go down to a geriatric with force powers who you yourself admit likes to toy with his opponents.

Khan wins; decisively.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I realize you seem to have an axe to grind with me. Get in line, boy. My facts certainly take a giant dump all over your biased stances.

Oh no, this isn't an axe to grind. This is a privilege. I missed out on biohazard, so I'm going to take it from your skin.

I do agree situational awareness is key

See, you say that, but then you turn around and say something stupid like this:

Windu didn't have his saber destroyed by the beast but Jango did.

Exactly. Windu lost his saber, but it wasn't destroyed. But Jango's pack was damaged. And that was a rather obvious threat to the both of them. Windu's ability to react faster to threats and sensing unseen threats means that he's less likely to make a mistake or suffer bad luck that will get him killed.

but a monster rampaging in his direction in the middle of an altercation against Windu muddies the waters.

What? Jango attacked Windu when Windu was fighting the beast. He even made a leap for Windu's lightsaber and lol-failed when Windu force-yanked it into his hand.

Jango needs to completely focus on Windu not what's around him.

Thank you for proving you have no idea what you're talking about. If you have to be entirely focused on your enemy and not your surroundings, it means you are clearly inferior to them. Yes, you want most, if not all your attention on your opponent if you can help it, but it doesn't do you much good to be super-focused on the enemy if you trip over a root, is it? Or a large branch?

Situation awareness is very important and a massive danger to combatants. Stop pretending you understand it when you don't.

Jango isn't the same warrior Khan is but he's a threat to Windu which is my point.

Um...no he wasn't? After he failed to get the lightsaber that Windu lost only because of the rampaging beast and after Windu didn't just force slam-him into something, Windu charged with his lightsaber while Jango impotently shot at him until Windu took his hand, then his head.

Jango's only means of being a threat to Windu in a straight up fight is the fact that he can fly and try to pepper Windu with bolter shots. But even then, that's not really insurmountable. Because once Windu gets an opening...well, say goodbye to that blaster. And of course, we've seen that Kenboi and Maul were both able to handily take out even flying opponents.

Jango did lack the situational awareness to deal with everything but Windu's victory is still with a giant asterisk.

Hardly. In that entire fight, the beast was more of a danger to Windu than Jango was. In fact, compared to the fight that we saw between Ves and Maul, it's apparent that Jango wasn't exactly as ****ing hot as he was made out to be. At least from what we see in that fight.

[B]Khan has the situational awareness to take down anywhere from 20-30 some Klingons and two ships with relative ease.

You mean while they were also engaged with Kirk's squad? And you want to brag about it, but movie-wise, Khan showed he had no idea what he was doing. He literally stayed out in the open, did not take cover, and didn't even know how to prioritize targets. Even the guns he had weren't really that great of a load-out. I mean really...no explosives? He could get his hands on a giant-ass cannon like that, but couldn't be bothered to get a few flashbangs or a grenade launcher?

And Khan killing 20-30 Klingons, while impressive, doesn't mean that he's immediately a threat to someone who can't do that. You don't get to assert superior capability simply because someone racks up a higher kill count. Especially when Khan had a height advantage on the Klingons and could more easily see and pick them off.

Unlike Khan Jango failed here. I never once said Jango was even. Enter than Windu but he's still a very obvious threat to the arguably greatest lightsaber wielding duelist from the Star Wars films. This thread is also about Khan who has superhuman situational awareness. References the Klingon scene in which he easily decimated the Klingon patrols.

Please. That hardly proves that he has superhuman situation awareness. The Klingons were more or less advancing along one side, took little to no cover, and were generally exposed. They were also pretty nice about either waiting to get close enough to attack him with their bat'leths or just not shooting at him in general.

If they'd spammed the area Khan had been in, he would have been dead. Khan would not physically be able to move his entire body out of the area before a shot hit and killed him.

Logically, what really happened was that Khan would have attacked from cover and kept moving while trying to retain his height advantage against the Klingons. Explosives and flashbangs would have been a must.

And your argument about Jango being a threat to Mace is overstated. Windu overpowered Jango with almost contemptible ease. And Jango was an excellent shot too.

Jedi and Sith possess high skill with their force and light saber dueling. That's why. Their situational awareness isn't at the top of the spectrum. Take into consideration the train wreck of the battle at Geonosis.

It very much is. You keep ignoring that. They're not all capable of beating Khan--that I will grant you. Kanan from Rebels, I would argue, would probably have a 50/50 shot at taking down Khan. But he's also been more or less out of practice, actively resists using the force and never really finished his training--was perhaps even a poor student.

But then you have powerful force users--force users who are strong impart because they have a strong connection to the force either through training or simple natural talent. These people are sensitive to the force and they can more easily feel when danger threatens. But as we see, it takes training and discipline.

Windu objected at Dooku's boastful claims they were impossibly outnumbered. We later saw despite the lack of skill the droids alone sandwiches them in.

And your point would be? See, unlike the Klingons Khan took on, the battle droids had the advantage of surrounding the jedi entirely in an arena and without the jedi having any form of cover. And even they would have had a better chance of surviving than Khan would have. Or an army of khans.

Despite a larger group of Jedi that consisted of Windu, Kenobi, and Skywalker, etc. they were defeated. Windu showed up and despite objecting didn't have the situational awareness to realize they were going to lose had Yoda not showed up with the clones.

Yes, I'm sure that Windu had absolutely no idea that Yoda was going to pick up troops to assist in the battle...

Khan isn't Jango. You keep interchanging the two like they possess the same strength, intelligence, skill and weaponry. None of this is the case so please cease with your insufferable character swapping. It's annoying and completely irrelevant. Mace's robes were burned.

When did that happen? Windu literally deflected every shot Jango threw at him? And stop with the strawman. The point was about situation awareness. And that the Jedi have supernatural awareness.

Sheev didn't sense Yoda's force push.

So? Yoda is both strong and experienced in the force. And it was obvious from the fight that he'd underestimated just how powerful Yoda was.

Sheev is overconfident and stupid on occasion. He didn't even sense Vader might turn on him while he was busying torturing his son right in front of him.

Because Palpatine was sure of Vader's loyalty. Vader had been his loyal servant for decades.

Sheev is in pathetic shape but what makes him good is his force amping, saber skills, and force knowledge.

Who says he's in pathetic shape? I mean, the guy runs around, flips, swordfights, and so forth. Do you know how physically strenuous sword-fighting is? Men in peak condition can't keep it up for more than a few minutes before they get tired and they start to slip up.

And if he's using the force to amp his abilities...then what's the difference? Either way, he's more capable than Khan.

He took on two opponents he both had in experience, force power, and light saber skill. Maul managed to press him and Opress was someone Maul beat in under ten seconds. Kenobi also wrecked him when he got aggressive as well.

Kenobi...the Jedi Master, you mean? Tell me, do you know how hard it is to fight two people at once? Hint; unless you're dramatically more skilled than both of your opponents, you generally won't win that fight. Especially not with the ease that Palpatine did.

There's nothing to suggest he threw that fight. It's fanboys such as yourself who just insert their own ridiculous opinions to justify why he lost. Sheev killed those worthless Jedi masters in less time then he defeated Opress.

You mean besides the fact that he slew a handful of Jedi Masters, with Windu there before? See, this is where you just run back and make a fool of yourself. If Windu couldn't defeat Palpatine with two or three other Master-Level Jedi with him, then how would he handily defeat Palpatine without them? I grant you, fights are more complicated than "whoze betterz", but it's rather obvious that Palpatine was far more capable than four Jedi Masters.

Feats and legacies matter. These guys were shit. Windu wasn't. Windu won.

No you witless jackal, it went so quick because there was no way they could get the actor who played Palpatine to carry on that long in a fight. Or did you not notice how clumsy he was with his sword? The actor had finite limit, because unlike the character, he couldn't move like a spring chicken. It's the same reason Darth Vader is treated as he was in the original series.

In reality, the fight would have lasted longer, as Palpatine would have been forced to fight more defensively than offensively.

Lucas states in rots commentary that Windu overcame him. That doesn't translate into he threw the fight. There is no evidence in the film at all to support that claim. None.

Even if we take that as gospel, and I have no reason to believe you, that's after Palpatine fought him and a couple other masters. So Palpatine would have been tired as all hell. That doesn't somehow mean that Windu > Palpatine.

They are in the same room so irrelevant point. When has Sheev broke someone's bones by repeatedly force slamming them over and over again. We see him slam both Maul and Opress but no bones were broken.

Uh, dude? Jedi repeatedly get thrown into walls at speed that would leave someone at least dazed, yet get right back up. Hell, landing from many of the heights they jump down from would have shattered their legs.

Did he continue to engage them physically; abso****inglutely. This isn't hey you jump into Sheev and fight how you want to fight while ignoring his portrayals, junior. You biased fanboys are all the same.

Of course I'm going to ignore parts of his portrayal. SoD demands it. He was often played by elderly men in the live action, so he couldn't possibly have moved with the same speed and agility that a CGI thousand year old Yoda could.

That may work against someone like Opress or a weaker Jedi but they don't possess the weaponry, ruthlessness, and skill Khan brings to the table.

I beg to differ. Khan acted as an agent for S31 for a few years, and mostly in the capacity of a weapon's designer. And when he ruled on Earth long before, we don't have any indication that he was some great soldier or warrior. Maul on the other hand, was trained by Palpatine to be his assassin and apprentice.

Khan has cellular regeneration to the point his blood has brought Kirk back to life in the proper setting. So acting as if he is going to get tired is sheer and complete ignorance on the character. At this point I have to ask have you seen the film ?

Sorry, but no. Khan's cellular regeneration was some BS plothole they had to build in to shoehorn their bullshit ending. Augments do not possess the ability to regenerate their bodies or their cells. Of course, why they needed Khan alive is also bullshit, since the blood's going to be good for use even after Spock were to beat his face into pink paste.

Khan is utterly ruthless and went up against the leader of starfleet and the enterprise crew all on his own. Galactic might against one superhuman badass.[

You mean dumbass, right? Because everything Khan did in that movie was just stupid. First off, he decided to abandon Starfleet before trying to secure his comrade's escape? He even had one S31 agent in his pocket, but instead of using him to locate his comrades, he used him for a stupid, pointless terrorist attack.

Better yet, rather than using say, a 10-ton tactical nuke to take out Starfleet headquarters...or you know, the same ****ing bomb that he used on S31, he instead decides to use a vehicle armed with nothing better than the phaser machine gun. Then he beams to the Klingon homeworld...rather than a much closer planet that he could meld into and escape...and you know, they wouldn't bomb.

Seriously, how was he awesome?

Khan set the stage for the meeting after he had that building bombed. He then attacked and murdered many starfleet officers. He later got aboard USS Vengeance and crushed Admiral Marcus' cranium.

Yeah, too bad the stupid shit didn't just you know...use the same bomb that took out an entire building to kill said high ranking officers. And the USS Vengeance was laughably understaffed and their soldiers clearly had no idea what to do.

And how is crushing Marcus's cranium bad-ass? It's not even the most painful or sadistic way he could have killed him. It just freaked out a couple of other people.

Khan destroyed the man who tried to use him for his own personal gain. Khan alone on the run did all this.

Yeah, because Into Darkness was a shitpile of poorly written crap. Soldiers had no means of sealing off decks, no means of creating choke-points, and why didn't the Enterprise see them coming from the debris? Thermal sensors would have seen them coming a long-way off. ****, at least Data had the sense to not actively create heat bursts when trying to board an enemy ship.

Originally posted by One_True_Mith
Oh no, this isn't an axe to grind. This is a privilege. I missed out on biohazard, so I'm going to take it from your skin.

See, you say that, but then you turn around and say something stupid like this:

Exactly. Windu lost his saber, but it wasn't destroyed. But Jango's pack was damaged. And that was a rather obvious threat to the both of them. Windu's ability to react faster to threats and sensing unseen threats means that he's less likely to make a mistake or suffer bad luck that will get him killed.

What? Jango attacked Windu when Windu was fighting the beast. He even made a leap for Windu's lightsaber and lol-failed when Windu force-yanked it into his hand.

Thank you for proving you have no idea what you're talking about. If you have to be entirely focused on your enemy and not your surroundings, it means you are clearly inferior to them. Yes, you want most, if not all your attention on your opponent if you can help it, but it doesn't do you much good to be super-focused on the enemy if you trip over a root, is it? Or a large branch?

Situation awareness is very important and a massive danger to combatants. Stop pretending you understand it when you don't.

Um...no he wasn't? After he failed to get the lightsaber that Windu lost only because of the rampaging beast and after Windu didn't just force slam-him into something, Windu charged with his lightsaber while Jango impotently shot at him until Windu took his hand, then his head.

Jango's only means of being a threat to Windu in a straight up fight is the fact that he can fly and try to pepper Windu with bolter shots. But even then, that's not really insurmountable. Because once Windu gets an opening...well, say goodbye to that blaster. And of course, we've seen that Kenboi and Maul were both able to handily take out even flying opponents.

Hardly. In that entire fight, the beast was more of a danger to Windu than Jango was. In fact, compared to the fight that we saw between Ves and Maul, it's apparent that Jango wasn't exactly as ****ing hot as he was made out to be. At least from what we see in that fight.

You mean while they were also engaged with Kirk's squad? And you want to brag about it, but movie-wise, Khan showed he had no idea what he was doing. He literally stayed out in the open, did not take cover, and didn't even know how to prioritize targets. Even the guns he had weren't really that great of a load-out. I mean really...no explosives? He could get his hands on a giant-ass cannon like that, but couldn't be bothered to get a few flashbangs or a grenade launcher?

And your point would be? See, unlike the Klingons Khan took on, the battle droids had the advantage of surrounding the jedi entirely in an arena and without the jedi having any form of cover. And even they would have had a better chance of surviving than Khan would have. Or an army of khans.

Yes, I'm sure that Windu had absolutely no idea that Yoda was going to pick up troops to assist in the battle...

Kenobi...the Jedi Master, you mean? Tell me, do you know how hard it is to fight two people at once? Hint; unless you're dramatically more skilled than both of your opponents, you generally won't win that fight. Especially not with the ease that Palpatine did.

Windu was also disarmed so his situational awareness wasn't on point either. The way the events played out benefited Windu. The reason the beast destroyed Jango's jet pack was because it was on his backside. Had Windu had any weapon there he would have most likely had it destroyed there as well. Jango took out the beast with one well placed shot. It just wasn't ideal for him to enable Windu due to him not being able to create distance between the two after the jetpack mishap. You can't say this when he didn't even react to Anakin while trying to kill the Sith Lord, Sheev. That's ironically what got him killed. He was slow moving as well with his saber to strike Sheev down.

I didn't stutter. Windu was unable to fell the beast. Jango did but not before it damaged his jetpac.

I already agreed Jango didn't have ideal situational awareness like Khan who took out 20+ and two ships with relative ease. Jango isn't on Khan's level of situational awareness. I don't even think Jango can best Windu on his own but the circumstances he found himself in made it even less likely to occur. Jango isn't that bad as to fall on a root but a massive beast that caused Windu problems is clearly an issue.

I do understand it and correctly just explained it to you in vivid detail.

Yes, he was a threat but in that situation without a jetpack he was dead in the eater after Windu bum rushed him. Early on when he used his flame thrower Windu had to jump away due to Jango's skill and weaponry.

I see you agree those are his best advantages as well. That's why I always said minus his biggest advantage he was dead in the water. I never said that Jango doing so is insurmountable. Hell, Jango despite disarming Kenobi flew right into his direction. He's an idiot but all things considered he still is a threat to Jedi. Kenobi never bested Jango and he couldn't prevent his escape so no proof there. Cad Bane electro shocked Kenobi by being superior in hand to hand reactions. Maul took on Vizsla in a very competitive fight that Maul won but by no means did he effortlessly stomp him.

It has an asterisk because the beast took away Jango's biggest advantage not Mace Windu. What do you mean by Ves and Maul ? Jango was a threat but Windu is the same guy who disarmed Sheev so he was a big deal in his own right.

The Klingons had Kirk pinned down and then Khan killed them. After this point the remaining survivors of Kirk's crew watched in complete awe as Khan took them down. The. Live showed exactly the opposite. Your sheer lunacy is duly noted. He had a vantage point and did take out the Klingons who converged on him while also taking ships out in short order. Khan then went mobile and decimated the rest who weren't converging on him. He didn't need any explosives. The plasma cannon he had took down ships with one shot. They left giant holes in the Klingons despite the body armor they had on. When I see blasters hit their targets I hardly see any damage at all. Hell, I see that one female Jedi pounded mercilessly by blaster fire and no visible damage is shown.

😂

So you say he had no idea what he was doing then try to criticize him for having a higher vantage point. You're a silly hypocrite who in the end argues with himself. He didn't have a higher vantage point than the ships.

So despite one of the highest of the Jedi order being disarmed and easily overwhelmed by droids in a giant group you say Khan doesn't have situational awareness in spades. They weren't all exposed, had two patrol ships overhead, and even unloaded like 8 or so more Klingons into the fight. The droids who sandwiched the Jedi in took no cover, have subpar mobility, and are walking targets still got the better of them. Embarrassingly so.

Speculation. They had to deal with being taken out by Khan and his superhuman accuracy. They did the best they could but Khan was clearly portrayed on another level. The director practically slapped the viewer in the face with this and even had Kirk and company applaud his activity after the fight with dialogue.

False. Windu was disarmed but look at how many shots Jango got off before he beheaded him. Khan's plasma cannon is far more powerful and wide for you to make the claim Windu can block it. It isn't blaster fire.

You're ridiculous and doing a bad job of handling yourself with Sidious so save your silly posturing. So despite their training, force sensitivity, and discipline some of the best were at the mercy of shitty numerous droids. Oh the irony.

The Jedi chose to come there. That's in them for putting themselves in a situation that isn't in their best interest. Khan wouldn't walk out and speak. He'd just fire from some vantage point. He isn't some idiotic Jedi who just leap first and think after.

Windu had no knowledge of Yoda's timing nor did he realize Dooku would stop the fighting to give them another chance to surrender. Windu contested their superiority. Dooku was right.

Right before Windu jumped down into the arena. That's when his robes were burned by the flamethrower. No, they don't. They are idiots. Windu had awful situational awareness assuming his group of Jedi stood a chance against the worthless droids.

If so powerful you are then why leave ?. That's Sheev trying to flee from the battle. He knew what kind of threat Yoda was. He wasn't an idiot.

False. He sensed confusion in him earlier in the film over Luke. Luke was right about him and even sensed the inner turmoil as well. Sheev was an idiot there.

That's due to force amping. So does Yoda but without his force abilities he needs a cane for gait. Without the force abilities he's weak. That's my point. His body isn't physically anything special save his connection to the force. No, he isn't. Khan has cellular regeneration, is physically a superhuman, and has the strength to crush a skull.

Sheev beat Opress when they were separated. Maul bested Qui when he was separated. Opress was beat by Maul in under ten seconds. His skill was laughable.

Originally posted by One_True_Mith
You mean besides the fact that he slew a handful of Jedi Masters, with Windu there before? See, this is where you just run back and make a fool of yourself. If Windu couldn't defeat Palpatine with two or three other Master-Level Jedi with him, then how would he handily defeat Palpatine without them? I grant you, fights are more complicated than "whoze betterz", but it's rather obvious that Palpatine was far more capable than four Jedi Masters.

No you witless jackal, it went so quick because there was no way they could get the actor who played Palpatine to carry on that long in a fight. Or did you not notice how clumsy he was with his sword? The actor had finite limit, because unlike the character, he couldn't move like a spring chicken. It's the same reason Darth Vader is treated as he was in the original series.

In reality, the fight would have lasted longer, as Palpatine would have been forced to fight more defensively than offensively.

Even if we take that as gospel, and I have no reason to believe you, that's after Palpatine fought him and a couple other masters. So Palpatine would have been tired as all hell. That doesn't somehow mean that Windu > Palpatine.

Uh, dude? Jedi repeatedly get thrown into walls at speed that would leave someone at least dazed, yet get right back up. Hell, landing from many of the heights they jump down from would have shattered their legs.

Of course I'm going to ignore parts of his portrayal. SoD demands it. He was often played by elderly men in the live action, so he couldn't possibly have moved with the same speed and agility that a CGI thousand year old Yoda could.

I beg to differ. Khan acted as an agent for S31 for a few years, and mostly in the capacity of a weapon's designer. And when he ruled on Earth long before, we don't have any indication that he was some great soldier or warrior. Maul on the other hand, was trained by Palpatine to be his assassin and apprentice.

Sorry, but no. Khan's cellular regeneration was some BS plothole they had to build in to shoehorn their bullshit ending. Augments do not possess the ability to regenerate their bodies or their cells. Of course, why they needed Khan alive is also bullshit, since the blood's going to be good for use even after Spock were to beat his face into pink paste.

You mean dumbass, right? Because everything Khan did in that movie was just stupid. First off, he decided to abandon Starfleet before trying to secure his comrade's escape? He even had one S31 agent in his pocket, but instead of using him to locate his comrades, he used him for a stupid, pointless terrorist attack.

Better yet, rather than using say, a 10-ton tactical nuke to take out Starfleet headquarters...or you know, the same ****ing bomb that he used on S31, he instead decides to use a vehicle armed with nothing better than the phaser machine gun. Then he beams to the Klingon homeworld...rather than a much closer planet that he could meld into and escape...and you know, they wouldn't bomb.

Seriously, how was he awesome?

Yeah, too bad the stupid shit didn't just you know...use the same bomb that took out an entire building to kill said high ranking officers. And the USS Vengeance was laughably understaffed and their soldiers clearly had no idea what to do.

And how is crushing Marcus's cranium bad-ass? It's not even the most painful or sadistic way he could have killed him. It just freaked out a couple of other people.

Yeah, because Into Darkness was a shitpile of poorly written crap. Soldiers had no means of sealing off decks, no means of creating choke-points, and why didn't the Enterprise see them coming from the debris? Thermal sensors would have seen them coming a long-way off. ****, at least Data had the sense to not actively create heat bursts when trying to board an enemy ship.

Thr Jedi masters were dead. It was one on one. The fight wasn't decided until after they were dead. It's like saying Kenobi cutting Maul in half is negated because he took both he and Qui first. That tired him out sort of silliness. The other Jedi were easily beaten and Windu found his opening later. Windu wasn't so good he good beat him in a sword swipe or two. Sheev was well behind those fodder but Windu bested him one on one.

No, that isn't true at all. We see Windu early on stave off Sheev's strikes but the weaker ones were dealt with in quick fashion. The first one just stood there while Sheev twirled around in a set of movements that lasted seconds. 😂

These guys are superhuman so don't say in reality. Ever.

You have no visible evidence he was tired as hell. We see much more acrobatic movement against Maul and Opress and he wasn't tired. You're just throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks. Yoda's older and even. Ore feeble and the guy was jumping all over pods after being temp kod by force Lightning. He weighs that of a medium sized dog. GTFO.

Windu won. Deal with it.

So you have no proof he slams them into walls to break bones and admit you made it up. Bring actual evidence not your imaginative claims. Khan jumped 98 feet after crash landing on earth and then sprinted through a city and you don't hear me saying he's tired. He isn't at his best. 😂

We see in the live action cgi and another actor wearing a mask so please don't say hey ignore the film like it's always Ian. It wasn't. You seem quite ignorant and out of your depth, boy.

We see in this film he's a superb warrior. He was used for his intelligence and his savagery. He knew conflict. That's why he was brought into this. He was better in every way then man. So what ? Maul fled from Hondo pirates who don't have training. Khan on his own took out a militarized Klingon squad singlehandedly according to Kirk.

So because you say it's bs we ignore facts. Never, fanboy. This Khan sure did. If you want to ignore his explanations in the film because you're biased by all means be a biased fanboy. Spock was defeated on his own. Khan was weapon less and it took Uhura 8 blasts to weakn him further. Context.

So you say it's stupid and doesn't count again, right ? He did so to get to Marcus because at that point he didn't realize his crew was still alive. Watch the ****ing movie, noob. He was after Marcus and knew that protocol dictated that meeting there at that point. He just didn't get Marcus then. He got him later. He knew they couldn't follow him to Kronos without an all out war with the Klingons. That's a brilliant move.

Quit arguing like hey this is stupid I didn't like it. It wa sa militarized vessel that could be piloted by one. That's the point. Marcus probably didn't want a huge crew anyways due to his actions.

It was badass. Much better than screaming while in a submissive position shooting force Lightning after you begged another man to save you.

Bs. You hated the film and want to flat out ignore scenes demonstrating a clear and utter sense of bias in you. You're biased and for this reason you can't be taken seriously. No facts should ever be ignored because you didn't like the explanations.

Khan wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He is more powerful than Yoda. I'm glad you disagree. You're a judas.

Despite that you claim that she was stated as being weaker. That's a fact.

Sheev can't just choke people out without being nearby or seeing them. If that were the case he'd annihilate those he wanted to. He didn't kill Yoda after he escaped because he had no clue where he was.

He knew he couldn't win at this point. He didn't they in son of dathomir. He openly defied Sheev. Amazing. Sheev needed Anakin to save him. He begged for his life. He's a weak, coward sometimes.

He has to think and we see sometimes he moves his hands. We see him use tk to move the pods. It still takes time and isn't as instinctive to him as Khan shooting a gun.

Khan ftw.

No. The movie says differently.

It's a nexus so naturally she would be amped by the nexus whether she was weakened or not. Maybe she was weakened form the full might of herself probably. However Dathomir is a nexus.

That is irrelevant as in this battle he and Kahn are going to be standing right in form of each other with probably 10-15 feet of distance in between them. With that he is close and not just out of proximity and can see Khan. So really all the criteria has to be close if he can't see them, or has to have some type of visual on the person or,being to be able to choke them form far away. So,with that choking khan isn't even an issue.

Maul begged Sheev for mercy. Sheev was faking that remember when Lucas explicitly says that Sheev was faking it? He was faking that. He didn't need Anakin to save him he could have easily kept that duel,going or defended HIMSLEF with force as he did. Also he could have killed windu then. When windu raised his hand up to swing that left enough room for Sidiosu to use lighting or push on Mace.

Well according to you khan will still have to raise his arm to shoot the gun. So with that it also takes time. Sidious doesn't need time he can do things pretty instant if he wishes.

The polls and evidence say differently. Debating with you is becoming tireing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do agree it is a privilege for someone such as yourself to engage the likes of me.

Engage would imply we're equals. Which is frankly absurd given that your debating method seems to be running your hand on your junk as fast and as hard as possible.

Windu was also disarmed so his situational awareness wasn't on point either.

That actually had nothing to do with situational awareness. That had to do with the fact that the beast clipped him when Mace took a swing at it.

The way the events played out benefited Windu. The reason the beast destroyed Jango's jet pack was because it was on his backside. Had Windu had any weapon there he would have most likely had it destroyed there as well. Jango took out the beast with one well placed shot. It just wasn't ideal for him to enable Windu due to him not being able to create distance between the two after the jetpack mishap.

Are we done going through this? Yes, the beast left Jango unable to escape and it got him killed. Had Jango better situational awareness, he wouldn't have died.

You can't say this when he didn't even react to Anakin while trying to kill the Sith Lord, Sheev. That's ironically what got him killed. He was slow moving as well with his saber to strike Sheev down.

Yes. Because Windu wasn't focusing on Anakin and Anakin was conflicted. He was focused on the Sith Lord. Anakin's choice was impulsive. He saw Windu swing, he swung to stop him and ended up cutting off his hands. The whole time Windu had Palpatine "at his mercy", he was exposed to Anakin.

I didn't stutter. Windu was unable to fell the beast. Jango did but not before it damaged his jetpac.

What? No, Windu didn't manage to kill the beast on his first swing. At no point is it indicated that Windu couldn't defeat the creature. In fact, Jedi have taken and driven away much more dangerous things than that. Hell, the Inquisitor was able to do that in Rebels and he's hardly an A-List Force User, given that he lost to Kanan.

The fact that Jango did it is...completely unrelated. Combat isn't a Poke'mon battle where you select attack moves and prove which one is better because they can beat X or Y.

Jango isn't on Khan's level of situational awareness. I don't even think Jango can best Windu on his own but the circumstances he found himself in made it even less likely to occur. Jango isn't that bad as to fall on a root but a massive beast that caused Windu problems is clearly an issue.

Holy shit, you actually are this dumb, aren't you? Situational awareness is not always a consistent thing. Someone who is very much aware of his surroundings can get sandbagged at the wrong moment. Jango got sandbagged because at the moment the beast was coming at him, he had been distracted by what Windu was doing.

Situlational awareness is...situational. The Jedi and Sith are different in that they sense danger around them. This is why their situational awareness is going to be far greater than Khan. Because if a sniper was aiming at Khan from a window, then Khan has no chance of knowing he's going to be killed. This is not the case with a Jedi or a Sith. It can be the case--it depends entirely on how skilled and how sensitive the jedi is.

A perfect example of this is the second episode of Rebels, where Kanan's apprentice, Ezri, is in a TIE fighter with Zeb. The canopy is full of gunk, so they can't see they're about to crash. But then Ezri senses it and forces the TIE to swerve to the right.

And Ezri's training thus far consists of "I can't even make a tea cup move" and "I almost lifted the lid off a crate". Your argument is further betrayed by the movies themselves, where we see Yoda instructing a class of children, who are wearing helmets with blast shields down and deflecting laser blasts that they can't even see being fired at them.

Yes, he was a threat but in that situation without a jetpack he was dead in the eater after Windu bum rushed him. Early on when he used his flame thrower Windu had to jump away due to Jango's skill and weaponry.

The dude got off like, 3-5 shots before Windu sliced him up like a roast. And how do you know that him using his flamethrower would have been the best course of action? He'd have to adjust his arms to spit fire out, where as he could keep firing with his pistol.

He's an idiot but all things considered he still is a threat to Jedi. Kenobi never bested Jango and he couldn't prevent his escape so no proof there. Cad Bane electro shocked Kenobi by being superior in hand to hand reactions. Maul took on Vizsla in a very competitive fight that Maul won but by no means did he effortlessly stomp him.

Well, Khan's an idiot and he's still a threat to Klingons, so what's your point? And how is Jango an idiot? He thought he had Windu at a disadvantage, got there at a bad time, got unlucky when the beast randomly targeted him, and was then unable to escape when his pack was busted.

[quote[]The Klingons had Kirk pinned down and then Khan killed them.[/quote]

Yeah, like one or two klingons had Kirk pinned. Kirk fought a couple of klingons before that happened.

After this point the remaining survivors of Kirk's crew watched in complete awe as Khan took them down.

Lol. You mean the tightly clustered, 7 or so remaining Klingons? Yeah, impressive for one guy. But he also had a semi-automatic weapon with him, so I don't know why you think it's some sort of amazing feat.

So you say he had no idea what he was doing then try to criticize him for having a higher vantage point.

****ing God you're thick. Having the higher ground is a good thing--unless you leave yourself exposed, because then everyone and their dog will be gunning for you. And he stood out in the open almost the whole time.

You're a silly hypocrite who in the end argues with himself. He didn't have a higher vantage point than the ships.

No shit.

So despite one of the highest of the Jedi order being disarmed and easily overwhelmed by droids in a giant group you say Khan doesn't have situational awareness in spades.

Holy hell, no. I'm saying the way they portrayed it, no, he had no situational awareness and no common sense. But it's a movie, they get shit wrong. Including how augments work. My point is, overall, that Khan does not have the situational awareness that a Jedi or Sith can, simply because he cannot sense when someone means him ill.

[B]If so powerful you are then why leave ?. That's Sheev trying to flee from the battle. He knew what kind of threat Yoda was. He wasn't an idiot.

Uh, because he'd obviously underestimated the power that Yoda had?

False. He sensed confusion in him earlier in the film over Luke. Luke was right about him and even sensed the inner turmoil as well. Sheev was an idiot there.

The only idiot is you. Yes, Palpatine sensed Vader's split loyalties. But he thought he had him in his pocket. Otherwise, he wouldn't have risked putting his back to Vader. You know, like Windu did? That's the point you dullard; both Windu and Palpatine trusted that Vader would support them and for a brief moment, left themselves exposed. And Vader acted upon impulse.

And before you comment about "blah, blah, blah--why didn't he remember Windu?", remember that Palpatine and Vader have been in situations where Vader might have attacked and destroyed Palpatine. In Lords of the Sith, we know he thought about it and then decided against it. Palpatine was even pleased at Vader's honesty when he asked him.

That's due to force amping. So does Yoda but without his force abilities he needs a cane for gait. Without the force abilities he's weak. That's my point. His body isn't physically anything special save his connection to the force.

In other words, you crying about how they'd be weak without the force...if only they didn't have the force.

No, he isn't. Khan has cellular regeneration, is physically a superhuman, and has the strength to crush a skull.

No, he doesn't. The Alternate Trek Timeline that was created was based upon the original timeline, which stemmed from Enterprise and TOS. Khan in TOS was middle-aged and we know that Augments do not have cellular regeneration. That was a bullcrap plot point they put in so they could keep Khan alive...for no reason at all.

And as for Khan having that amount of force--no, he doesn't. Even the strongest man alive couldn't crush a man's skull like that. It's also a really stupid and dangerous way to try and kill someone. On the account that it still takes him a while and he leaves himself completely exposed.

But since as we all know, other canon sources have established that Augments cannot do that, most especially Khan, we can safely discard it.

Sheev beat Opress when they were separated. Maul bested Qui when he was separated. Opress was beat by Maul in under ten seconds. His skill was laughable. [/B]

Again, proving you don't understand how actual swordplay works.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I already tore this socks arguments in another thread. When I do so again it will be pure ****in magic.

First: a sock of whom?

Second: You got wrecked again, just as you did when you chickened out in SB, and literally the only reason you are still even here, is because Impediment allows your continued presence because you amuse him... somehow.

Originally posted by One_True_Mith
Engage would imply we're equals. Which is frankly absurd given that your debating method seems to be running your hand on your junk as fast and as hard as possible.

That actually had nothing to do with situational awareness. That had to do with the fact that the beast clipped him when Mace took a swing at it.

Are we done going through this? Yes, the beast left Jango unable to escape and it got him killed. Had Jango better situational awareness, he wouldn't have died.

Yes. Because Windu wasn't focusing on Anakin and Anakin was conflicted. He was focused on the Sith Lord. Anakin's choice was impulsive. He saw Windu swing, he swung to stop him and ended up cutting off his hands. The whole time Windu had Palpatine "at his mercy", he was exposed to Anakin.

What? No, Windu didn't manage to kill the beast on his first swing. At no point is it indicated that Windu couldn't defeat the creature. In fact, Jedi have taken and driven away much more dangerous things than that. Hell, the Inquisitor was able to do that in Rebels and he's hardly an A-List Force User, given that he lost to Kanan.

The fact that Jango did it is...completely unrelated. Combat isn't a Poke'mon battle where you select attack moves and prove which one is better because they can beat X or Y.

Holy shit, you actually are this dumb, aren't you? Situational awareness is not always a consistent thing. Someone who is very much aware of his surroundings can get sandbagged at the wrong moment. Jango got sandbagged because at the moment the beast was coming at him, he had been distracted by what Windu was doing.

Situlational awareness is...situational. The Jedi and Sith are different in that they sense danger around them. This is why their situational awareness is going to be far greater than Khan. Because if a sniper was aiming at Khan from a window, then Khan has no chance of knowing he's going to be killed. This is not the case with a Jedi or a Sith. It can be the case--it depends entirely on how skilled and how sensitive the jedi is.

A perfect example of this is the second episode of Rebels, where Kanan's apprentice, Ezri, is in a TIE fighter with Zeb. The canopy is full of gunk, so they can't see they're about to crash. But then Ezri senses it and forces the TIE to swerve to the right.

And Ezri's training thus far consists of "I can't even make a tea cup move" and "I almost lifted the lid off a crate". Your argument is further betrayed by the movies themselves, where we see Yoda instructing a class of children, who are wearing helmets with blast shields down and deflecting laser blasts that they can't even see being fired at them.

The dude got off like, 3-5 shots before Windu sliced him up like a roast. And how do you know that him using his flamethrower would have been the best course of action? He'd have to adjust his arms to spit fire out, where as he could keep firing with his pistol.

Well, Khan's an idiot and he's still a threat to Klingons, so what's your point? And how is Jango an idiot? He thought he had Windu at a disadvantage, got there at a bad time, got unlucky when the beast randomly targeted him, and was then unable to escape when his pack was busted

And before you comment about "blah, blah, blah--why didn't he remember Windu?", remember that Palpatine and Vader have been in situations where Vader might have attacked and destroyed Palpatine. In Lords of the Sith, we know he thought about it and then decided against it. Palpatine was even pleased at Vader's honesty when he asked him.

In other words, you crying about how they'd be weak without the force...if only they didn't have the force.

No, he doesn't. The Alternate Trek Timeline that was created was based upon the original timeline, which stemmed from Enterprise and TOS. Khan in TOS was middle-aged and we know that Augments do not have cellular regeneration. That was a bullcrap plot point they put in so they could keep Khan alive...for no reason at all.

And as for Khan having that amount of force--no, he doesn't. Even the strongest man alive couldn't crush a man's skull like that. It's also a really stupid and dangerous way to try and kill someone. On the account that it still takes him a while and he leaves himself completely exposed.

But since as we all know, other canon sources have established that Augments cannot do that, most especially Khan, we can safely discard it.

Again, proving you don't understand how actual swordplay works.

That showed that he wasn't situationaly prepared to properly deal with the beast.

I disagree. Windu was his superior so I think it might have delayed it more but I don't see Jango ever beating him. Jango isn't some schlub he can easily beat with some half assed force attack.

Windu knew he was conflicted prior to Anakin showing up. So him not being situationaly aware of a problem he knew festered in Anakin is awful. Anakin reacted in the heat if the moment because of Padme but intended on cutting his hand off. He's quite skilled that wasn't a mistake. Windu waited too long and should have been more aware while Sheev openly seduced Anakin over to his side.

I never said he couldn't I said he didn't. Jango did with one shot. One swipe didn't get the job done. Jango was more efficient in killing the beast than Windu.

Jango's skills are more equipped for certain situations than Windu and vice versa. I never said Jango beats Windu either.

Situational awareness depends on the circumstances you find yourself in based off your skill set. Here's the difference with Khan. He isn't going to put himself in a situation like this so why even mention it. He's very tactical and doesn't just do shit just to do it. By the same token we see Maul and Opress weren't better suited against the Pirates in that situation due to then wielding just force abilities and light sabers. Khan would start bucking the Pirates and in quick, successive fashion with his long ranged weapons.

I understand precognition comes into play but in the end skill matters. Pre had no precognition but he still managed to disarm Maul who did. Your point actually helps me. They are training to increase their skill which goes to prove my skill matters is all that matters here. Maul's weapons, skills, and temperament against Khan's skills, weapons, and temperament.

Fett already used the flame thrower on him and it got Windu to jump off and create distance between them. 5 shots is a lot. There is no proof a lightsaber can deflect a Boolean gun phaser blast. I never said he should have used the flame thrower when Windu charged. You're confused as to what I meant.

Khan is anything but an idiot. Abrams shows multiple characters in the movie talk about how brilliant and savage he is. Dude, Jango had two jet packs wrecked in two fights. Vizsla got his jet pack damaged too against Maul. The jetpack said easily wreck in a up close and personal battle.

Ok, and ? Kirk was defeated. Khan waxed them though. Khan still has to fire and aim his weapons. The weapons weren't the threat the man wielding them was. Kirk's jaw was dropping just watching him. To easily destroy a Klingon squad according to Kirk is amazing.

He was not tagged. Again do not argue with results. Maul was the one who lost a leg while running away.

Khan doesn't need to sense when someone means him ill here so moot point. They aren't walking down a hallway for him to figure Sheev out. These two are here to kill each other. Khan's going to win.

No, he didn't he just got cocky after he tagged him and idiotically allowed him the time to recover.

So he sensed his split loyalties and didn't foresee it because he's an idiot. Windu didn't trust Anakin that's why he told him not to come. Windu reacted in the situation he was dealt Sheev trusted him and put himself in that situation. Simply awful. Dummy.

So the relationship was always strained and. Last Sith understand this which makes it even worse Sheev completely let his guard down while he tortured Anakin's damn son.

Maul isn't weak without the force like Sheev or Yoda. That's my point.

In this new timeline he did. They say what's canon. It is a fact and you trying to argue it doesn't count is why I don't respect biased fanboys such as yourself. Don't argue with facts, boy. You'll always lose.

A human augment has five times the strength of a person. It's funny how you're comparing Khan to humans when he was genetically created to be superior in all ways. Watch the ****ing movie, noob. If he's just facing one foe irs prettty intimidating.

You want to ignore feats because you're biased. You're ridiculously biased to the point facts bounce off your unicorn loving ass. Does the sky appear as red to you since you so readily dismiss whatever facts you don't care for.

I understand Maul and Sheev are far more skilled in a duel than Opress. You rambling on like you're some sword master is pathetic when it's just that Opress didn't stack up to Maul or Sheev.
😂

Khan wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
[B]Thr Jedi masters were dead. It was one on one.

Again, so what? Do you know how endurance works? Just because you run 5 miles, stop for a minute, then run another 1 mile, doesn't suddenly mean that the last 6 miles didn't happen. The human body has physical limits. Have you ever exercised in your life?

Because even people who exercise often--sometimes too often are left more physically tired even after hours of rest if they've really expended themselves. I used to bike to work a few years ago, five days a week. 45 minutes there and back, for a total of 14 miles. Between that and work, even with hours of rest, my legs would still not be at 100% the next day. It could take a day or two to get myself back at 100%

The fight wasn't decided until after they were dead. It's like saying Kenobi cutting Maul in half is negated because he took both he and Qui first. That tired him out sort of silliness. The other Jedi were easily beaten and Windu found his opening later. Windu wasn't so good he good beat him in a sword swipe or two. Sheev was well behind those fodder but Windu bested him one on one.

Wow...just wow.

That isn't how the world works. If you don't believe me, jog 5 miles and fight someone of equal skill. See how well it goes for you.

No, that isn't true at all. We see Windu early on stave off Sheev's strikes but the weaker ones were dealt with in quick fashion. The first one just stood there while Sheev twirled around in a set of movements that lasted seconds. 😂

And? Of course he did. Probably between the guy's make-up and the fact that his opponent was an old man, the fight would have looked terrible. In reality, the fight against 3-4 masters would have actually have lasted longer. Palpatine would have moved defensively, trying to keep them at bay with force tricks or his lightsaber. He'd kill the ones that slipped up or exposed themselves.

In the end, it would have been Palpatine against Windu, second only to Yoda as the strongest Jedi Master. And even then, Paplatine threw the fight.

These guys are superhuman so don't say in reality. Ever.

Yeah, I'm going to keep on saying it. Movies are portrayals. They are not the literal things. Because otherwise we can all sit back and laugh at how ****ing stupid Khan is and how he fights like a prissy little girl.

Because he does. Like him "tripping" that klingon. Right. The actor rolled off the edge after he basically love-tapped him. In reality, if he'd done that, the Klingon would have hit the ground and the moment Khan turned away to "look like a badass", the Klingon would have put several rounds through his bed-sheet-white chest.

You have no visible evidence he was tired as hell.

I don't need any. Of course the actor isn't going to be tired. Lucas didn't pay much attention to those details in his prequels and the scene itself was very short and not physically demanding--again, old actor.

Sorry, but his safety comes before your absurd demand that he start flipping around and swinging his sword.

So you have no proof he slams them into walls to break bones and admit you made it up.

I said no such thing.

Bring actual evidence not your imaginative claims. Khan jumped 98 feet after crash landing on earth and then sprinted through a city and you don't hear me saying he's tired. He isn't at his best. 😂

That's also wrong. Augments can't survive a fall from that height.

We see in this film he's a superb warrior.

Oh please. If that were a real battlefield against real soldiers and Khan pulled the shit they did in the movie, he'd be on the ground, squealing like a pig until he finally bled out. In any real, intelligent situation, Khan would have done none of those things, so SoD would determine that he wouldn't.

He was used for his intelligence and his savagery. He knew conflict. That's why he was brought into this. He was better in every way then man.

No it wasn't. Khan being "savage" is a load of bullcrap. First, Khan was never an expert in weapons technology. He was a leader. Maybe a warrior of some skill. But he never designed weapons or anything like that. More to the point, he came from a time when they hadn't even developed warp drive. They didn't even have antimatter reactors or torpedoes in his era, how the **** would he know how to design a weapon from technology that he had no basic grasp of?

No, he was revived because they needed a flimsy excuse to bring Khan into the movies and the writers obviously didn't know how to meld his story and the overall plot of "shitty admiral goes to war" work together. So they came up with a BS story, rather than anything that might have actually of made sense.

So what ? Maul fled from Hondo pirates who don't have training. Khan on his own took out a militarized Klingon squad singlehandedly according to Kirk.

They were also on the run from Kenobi. And again, you prove how you don't understand the limits of motion. If Khan were in their shoes, he'd have very likely of been killed. He'd have no cover and he couldn't possibly avoid the volume of fire.

So because you say it's bs we ignore facts. Never, fanboy. This Khan sure did. If you want to ignore his explanations in the film because you're biased by all means be a biased fanboy. Spock was defeated on his own. Khan was weapon less and it took Uhura 8 blasts to weakn him further. Context.

So what?

Alright, first off--Spock is a science officer. He likely has little more than basic training in terms of hand to hand combat. The fact that Khan beat him in hand to hand is no great feat. And I'm not just saying it--I am factually correct in stating that no Augment that came before Khan had regeneration or the ability to fall from fantastic heights.

The film literally got it wrong.

So you say it's stupid and doesn't count again, right ? He did so to get to Marcus because at that point he didn't realize his crew was still alive. Watch the ****ing movie, noob.

Yeah, I have watched the movie. Once. Because it was shit. Horrific plot-holes and factually wrong on so many levels.

He was after Marcus and knew that protocol dictated that meeting there at that point. He just didn't get Marcus then. He got him later. He knew they couldn't follow him to Kronos without an all out war with the Klingons. That's a brilliant move.

No it wasn't. He basically dropped himself in a place he couldn't easily leave. And as was pretty ****ing obvious after the initial scene, Starfleet didn't give a shit bout running over there and going to war. Which is...just ****ing laughable.

Again, the movie didn't understand the complex relations between the Federation and the Klingons. If the Klingons knew he was there, they would have captured Khan and used him as a bargaining cheap. Which would have been much more preferable than pointing nukes at the Klingon homeworld (Lol...riiight, like that would have actually of worked...planetary shields? Orbital defense grids? DURR, wat dat?) and beating your chest.

Quit arguing like hey this is stupid I didn't like it. It wa sa militarized vessel that could be piloted by one. That's the point. Marcus probably didn't want a huge crew anyways due to his actions.

And so he made it several times the size of a ship that needs hundreds of people to keep it running.

I don't know how it can be anymore apparent how stupid that is.

It was badass. Much better than screaming while in a submissive position shooting force Lightning after you begged another man to save you.

No, it was stupid alpha-male fantasy bullshit. It wasn't badass, it was incredibly stupid and would never have worked. By the time he'd actually get anywhere with that, someone would have put a round through his back.

Bs. You hated the film and want to flat out ignore scenes demonstrating a clear and utter sense of bias in you. You're biased and for this reason you can't be taken seriously. No facts should ever be ignored because you didn't like the explanations.

Sorry, but Into Darkness was a spewing piece of shit. This is fact. Its plot was a mess, its characters passed the idiot ball, and everyone constantly did things that worked against them. And the movie just made up bullshit technology and abilities whenever it felt like it.

Need Khan in the movie?

Make him an expert in weapons.

Is he a weapon expert with 23rd century knowledge?

No. **** it.

Need to put Spock in danger in the opening?

Have him trapped in a volcano.

But can't they beam him out with no trouble?

No. **** it.

They need to keep the volcano from erupting. How do they do it?

With cold fusion.

Cold fusion doesn't freeze, it's a means of creating atomic energy.

Too late. **** it.

Kirk violates the Prime Directive and is relieved of command and presumably going to be court martialed. How do we get him back in the captain's seat?

Give him back his command?

How? There's lots of more qualified, experienced officers who'll actually follow orders.

The admiral wants to because he wants a war with the klingons.

But won't all the other chief of staff members find this suspicious.

No. **** it. We'll kill them all.

Won't more officers be immediately promoted by the UFP President to fill in the gaps?

No. Because...**** it, who really cares?

And on and on it goes.

Khan wins.

The only thing Khan wins is being thrown out of a 150th foot floor building and feeding the local rodents, his body medium-rare. It'll land roughly nine inches to the left of the faded chalk outline of of Master Windu.