Agen Kolar vs. Darth Talon

I say Kolar wins and here's why:
He owned Quinlan Vos but was eventually holding back when sparring with him. We know Quinlan had good TK and feats due to him pulling a Vapaad maneuver against Windu and stalemating Sora Bulq for a short period of time.

Kolar is also a master in unarmed combat.Kolar was also able to engage in a fight against a mob of cantina patrons on Nar Shaddada without his lightsaber and without difficulty. He is especially fond of delivering high kicks to his foes.

For force feats, he favors the force push a lot.

Sourcebooks say that Kolar is "celebrated" among the prime of the Jedi. This makes him leagues better than Talon.

Unlike Talon, he does have an impressive skill like I mentioned: stomping Quinlan Vos. Outright stomping Vos is very impressive considering his own feats compared to Vao and Sazen.

Kolar can attack with Force Powers suddenly and without Talon noticing.

Kolar has a great del of resistance to pain, so it's most likely he'd be able to shrug it off and casually tank it if he was stabbed and thrown into a wall like Talon.

Amen. If you guys want to know what he is referring to, it's from an actual debate of Kolar vs Bane on SWF.
I copied it so you can read it here: http://thesithoutcasts.forumotion.com/t201-agen-kolar-flashpoint98-vs-darth-bane-doe-emperordmb

Sourcebooks say that Kolar is "celebrated" among the prime of the Jedi. This makes him leagues better than Bane.

Yeah that may have been the stupidest debate I ever participated in.

Emperordmb

Unlike Talon, he does have an impressive skill like I mentioned: stomping Quinlan Vos. Outright stomping Vos is very impressive considering his own feats compared to Vao and Sazen.

(Replying as-if it was serious, just 'cause).

I'd put them over Vos.

Sazen and Vao are on the Jedi Council's "Send to take out Krayt and his leadership strike team," to Coruscant (along with Cade, Rasi Tuum, and two of the top Imperial Knights since it was a joint mission). Sazen's killed Darth Azard, a sith with both duel feats and force feats. Yadda yadda.

Taking out both of them is better than taking out Vos. Less majorly, she also took out Elke Vetter, Marasiah Fel's master (and ripped info on Marasiah's mission from Elke's mind- Talon does have strong mental force powers too).

Talon definitely has the force edge here.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm... pretty sure they have piles of sith kills, numbers of duels, and in general have been shown to be quite impressive. I'd put them over Vos...

Sazen and Vao are on the Jedi Council's "Send to take out Krayt and his leadership strike team," to Coruscant (along with Cade, Rasi Tuum, and two of the top Imperial Knights since it was a joint mission).

Sazen's killed Darth Azard, a sith with both duel feats and force feats. Yadda yadda.

Taking out both of them is better than taking out just-Vos. Less majorly, she also took out Elke Vetter, Marasiah Fel's master (and ripped info on Marasiah's mission from Elke's mind- Talon does have strong mental force powers too).

Talon definitely has the force edge here.

Ant was kind enough to copy the original debate here:
http://thesithoutcasts.forumotion.com/t201-agen-kolar-flashpoint98-vs-darth-bane-doe-emperordmb

He knows, he was simply addressing it for the **** of it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He knows, he was simply addressing it for the **** of it.

Yea, I posted, realized it sounded like I was taking dmb's joke too seriously, and edited. Just not fast enough.

---

Do we even known Kolar is stronger than Tiin?

Do we even known Kolar is stronger than Tiin?

Mace Windu suggests that Agen Kolar is the most skilled out of all the Jedi he brought with him to confront Palpatine. Hell, he also suggested that Kit and Saesee were unneeded in arresting Palpatine, and that Kolar alone would suffice as his backup.

Of course, they grossly underestimated Palpatine, but the fact that Mace thought Kolar was not only qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku, but also that he was more qualified than anyone else in the Order circa Kenobi and Yoda speaks for his skill.

Kolar's domination of a swordsman as able Quinlan only supports Mace's applaud of him, especially because the feat was only replicated by Dooku and Mace himself.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace Windu suggests that Agen Kolar is the most skilled out of all the Jedi he brought with him to confront Palpatine. Hell, he also suggested that Kit and Saesee were unneeded in arresting Palpatine, and that Kolar alone would suffice as his backup.

Of course, they grossly underestimated Palpatine, but the fact that Mace thought Kolar was not only qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku, but also that he was more qualified than anyone else in the Order circa Kenobi and Yoda speaks for his skill.

Kolar's domination of a swordsman as able Quinlan only supports Mace's applaud of him, especially because the feat was only replicated by Dooku and Mace himself.

That's why I think that other than the big 4, Kolar comes in behind Fisto, as far as duelists in the Order. When Kit was nervous about facing Sidious, he wished that Yoda or Obi-Wan were there, too. I think it's a little telling that he wasn't wishing Koon, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, or any others were there. He immediately went to the ones he felt were the best. That's how I saw it, at least.

That's why I think that other than the big 4, Kolar comes in behind Fisto,

Again, Mace suggested otherwise.

When Kit was nervous about facing Sidious, he wished that Yoda or Obi-Wan were there, too. I think it's a little telling that he wasn't wishing Koon, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, or any others were there.

👆 Shaak Ti even admitted inferiority to all four of the masters that confronted Palpatine.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, Mace suggested otherwise.

True. I was mostly going off of Kit's skills in the fight. Whichever version of the fight you look at (movie or novel), Kolar gets taken out at the very beginning, while Kit is the 2nd to last to die. Now that I think about it, though, Sidious may have taken Kolar out early because he was perceived as a bigger threat...

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace Windu suggests that Agen Kolar is the most skilled out of all the Jedi he brought with him to confront Palpatine. Hell, he also suggested that Kit and Saesee were unneeded in arresting Palpatine, and that Kolar alone would suffice as his backup.

Of course, they grossly underestimated Palpatine, but the fact that Mace thought Kolar was not only qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku, but also that he was more qualified than anyone else in the Order circa Kenobi and Yoda speaks for his skill.

I'd say that's a combination of, one, really not knowing what they were up against, and two, Windu probably figuring any Council-level backup was fine.

When push came to shove, Mace's impressions didn't live up to the results.

Maybe Agen just spars harder than the others or something, so he came across as stronger when really the likes of Fisto could go higher in a pinch.

Refer below: (This post was messed up)

That's a weakly concieved argument, Q99. I expect better from you.

Even if you choose to blatantly disregard the credit that Mace awards to Kolar, I've already mentioned that his performance against Quinlan Vos alone backs up his hype. It actually directly parallels Dooku's own performance against him:

Both easily repel Quinlan's initial attack, then kick him in the face:

Both then slash Quinlan in the back, and then in Kolar's case he flees and in Dooku's he attempts to attack once more but fails:

You could argue Dooku was holding back against Vos, I'd counter the same can be said for Agen, who in the panel where he slashes him in the back says that he could easily have taken his limbs if he wished.

Also, there isn't much time between the two fights, and Vos doesn't officially accept Dooku's training until after their battle, so it's an indisputably fair comparison. Agen, based on their respective performances against Vos, should at least be comparable to Dooku in terms of skill.

And again, Mace backs this up by suggesting that not only is Agen Kolar the most skilled of a group of history's best swordsmen, but also suggests he's qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku even without Kit and Saesee. Other than the big four, (Kenobi/Anakin/Mace/Yoda) Kolar is the most skilled swordsman in the Order, I have no doubts about this.

Dooku's smile is really creepy.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's a weakly concieved argument, Q99. I expect better from you.

Even if you choose to blatantly disregard the credit that Mace awards to Kolar, I've already mentioned that his performance against Quinlan Vos alone backs up his hype. It actually directly parallels Dooku's own performance against him:

[B]Both easily repel Quinlan's initial attack, then kick him in the face:

Both then slash Quinlan in the back, and then in Kolar's case he flees and in Dooku's he attempts to attack once more but fails:

You could argue Dooku was holding back against Vos, I'd counter the same can be said for Agen, who in the panel where he slashes him in the back says that he could easily have taken his limbs if he wished.

Also, there isn't much time between the two fights, and Vos doesn't officially accept Dooku's training until after their battle, so it's an indisputably fair comparison. Agen, based on their respective performances against Vos, should at least be comparable to Dooku in terms of skill.

And again, Mace backs this up by suggesting that not only is Agen Kolar the most skilled of a group of history's best swordsmen, but also suggests he's qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku even without Kit and Saesee. Other than the big four, (Kenobi/Anakin/Mace/Yoda) Kolar is the most skilled swordsman in the Order, I have no doubts about this. [/B]

Nicely put. The only thing I would add to that is that while Kolar may not have been giving it his all against Vos, the same can be said for Quinlan. Also, I'm not sure Kolar can be put on Dooku's level of swordsmanship, just based off of those two fights.

Nicely put. The only thing I would add to that is that while Kolar may not have been giving it his all against Vos, the same can be said for Quinlan.

It's not the same at all. Quinlan by this point was already falling to the Dark Side, and while he advocated that he'd prefer not to kill Agen, he didn't intend to kill Dooku either.

Also, I'm not sure Kolar can be put on Dooku's level of swordsmanship, just based off of those two fights.

Maybe not, but it's a valid comparison and nothing contradicts it in the slightest.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not the same at all. Quinlan by this point was already falling to the Dark Side, and while he advocated that he'd prefer not to kill Agen, he didn't intend to kill Dooku either.

How do you know he was falling at that time? Windu and Yoda later confirm that it was all a ruse to get Vos recruited into Dooku's faction? Yes, he later did fall, but at the time he was still a Jedi, albeit one that preferred the shadows. Agen was deliberately kept in the dark about the plan, so his responses and attitude would be genuine.

Yes, nothing contradicts Dooku and Kolar being in the same teir, but the sample size is very small. If the artist had drawn that fight in a different way, would you still have the same opinion?