Agen Kolar vs. Darth Talon

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She absolutely does.

"Anakin, why? These Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

Bro are you serious? Shaak Ti knows Anakin beat Dooku, she's by no means insinuating he's too weak to make a difference only that that team was strong enough to defeat anyone. A point Kenobi reasserts later in the novel to Yoda.

"Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee—four of the greatest swordsmen ourOrder has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

And what's more Yoda agrees. This group were hyped to death in ROTS.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'd Agen rivals Kenobi.

He doesn't. Agen would never ever under any circumstances be able to fight off Savage and Maul, ever.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He doesn't. Agen would never ever under any circumstances be able to fight off Savage and Maul, ever.

If they weren't trying to kill him, and if Maul still had those awkward, bulky legs, it's possible.

Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If they weren't trying to kill him, and if Maul still had those awkward, bulky legs, it's possible.

No way. Savage alone is solidly above Kit Fisto.

Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once.

Ventress never cut off either of their arms or broke their legs though did she?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No way. Savage alone is solidly above Kit Fisto.

Ventress never cut off either of their arms or broke their legs though did she?

I think Savage would take a majority against Fisto due to his physical strength and force power, but not by virtue of having more skill and speed.

Because Anakin and Kenobi are more skilled than Savage. Plus they had Kenobi in a position in which they thought they had him at their mercy, which gave Kenobi the opportunity to focus on Savage's weakened knee. Anakin and Kenobi are more focused duelists, who don't rely mostly on their strength to overpower their opponents. But it doesn't change the fact that she has held them both off at the same time. In fact, she could have likely killed Kenobi in her last fight against them had Anakin not been there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Also, the only reason you're making such a fuss, is because Palpatine's feat is 10 times better than Krayt cutting down the IGs. You want so badly for Krayt to be on Sidious's level, which he doesn't even approach.

*Looks around*

Is this addressed to me? Because I put Sidious above Krayt and I think Sidious's blitzing is superior. Always have.

Krayt blitzed 3 master-duelists plus a named-Fel-master duelist in a quick exchange. At most, one of those was council level. Sidious blitzed two mid-council, and then beat one high-council type in a quick exchange, while also having to worry about pretty much a grand master level Jedi right there, who he was actively engaging while fighting Fisto. That is nuts.

Sidious's blitz is the best blitz in the franchise bar none, and Sidious is the best sith duelist bar none- or arguably bar darkside Luke, though that was pretty temporary.

So please, no making up my opinions for me 🙂

As for Maul, I'm not sure why you keep referencing that fight. He really didn't last that long against Sidious, considering the circumstances.

He lasted several minutes and wasn't even on the defense for some of it. That's better than Fisto (with less support than Fisto), let alone Agen.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Bro are you serious? Shaak Ti knows Anakin beat Dooku, she's by no means insinuating he's too weak to make a difference only that that team was strong enough to defeat anyone. A point Kenobi reasserts later in the novel to Yoda.

"Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee—four of the greatest swordsmen ourOrder has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

And what's more Yoda agrees. This group were hyped to death in ROTS.

To put it another way- Kenobi and Yoda hold my general opinion on numbers mattering, especially if everyone in the fight looks usefully strong.

I think Kenobi + Yoda could've won, mind you, and in fact Sidious did basically kinda lose against the four, only saved by Anakin (yes, I hold the 'Sidious wasn't faking it' view), something which I don't think Kenobi and Yoda knew.

I don't think they pictured just how fast the first two went down, especially as that quote is from the novel version, where Tiin was stunned with telepathy at the start of the fight effectively making it 3 v 1 rather than 4 (though, of course, that gets him mental-attack points since that was still a darkside usage).

But I very much get where they're coming from and lacking details I would draw the exact same conclusion, and if the order of the duel was different, Windu engaged first, and then the three moved in with support in a situation where Sidious can't blitz them, I think they'd have won quite comfortably, and if I knew he handled 4 vs 1 I wouldn't want to face him 2 vs 1.

Before facing him, they though a 5th skilled master would be redundant. After, they were too freaked by what happened to 4.

So please, no making up my opinions for me smile

@Q99, You have argued up and down, in the past, that Krayt rivaled Sidious. Quite recently, TBH.

All the council members sent to arrest Palpatine were all high level, according to Mace, Shaak Ti, Kenobi and Yoda.

Also I was referring to Maul's one on one with Sidious. However, I agree that Maul is better than Fisto, but by your logic of him not being on the defensive with less support, would suggest he is better than Windu, who was forced on the defensive until the end of the fight.

Again, why are you referencing that fight when Sidious wasn't aiming to kill Maul?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@Q99, You have argued up and down, in the past, that Krayt rivaled Sidious. Quite recently, TBH.

Uh, no, not really. I have argued he could put up a fight against Sidious, but that's different, there's a number of people who could put up a fight and lose. And Krayt would lose, no question.

If you've thought I think that Krayt could do more than 'put up a good fight,' you're incorrect.

All the council members sent to arrest Palpatine were all high level, according to Mace, Shaak Ti, Kenobi and Yoda.

But, even looking at their performances, there's different levels between them.

It may be their fellows were simply overestimated them for whatever reason, but the fact is there was a performance gap between them and Fisto- and if you're weaker than Fisto, then you aren't High Council level in my view.

The fact is, between Tiin and Agen, neither actually has a feat that requires high council skill and they also compare unfavorable to Kit Fisto in a side-by-side battle against the same foe.

Also I was referring to Maul's one on one with Sidious. However, I agree that Maul is better than Fisto, but by your logic of him not being on the defensive with less support, would suggest he is better than Windu, who was forced on the defensive until the end of the fight.

Windu actually pushed onto the offensive, on his own, beyond what both brothers together could manage. Maul and Savage when working together were able to do some work, but not what Windu managed to accomplish.

So no, not 'by my logic,' unless one chops off the end of the fight.

You really aren't good at this 'making my opinions up' stuff.

Again, why are you referencing that fight when Sidious wasn't aiming to kill Maul?

He was certainly aiming to defeat Maul. He was also aiming to kill Savage, yet only once Savage was alone did the difference become so big that he could casually do so.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, no, not really.

Are we lying now?

You've asserted Krayt was on par with Sidious, and concluded that it was logical. You have also made direct comparisons to his fight against the IKs to Palpatine's fight against the council members.

If you have changed your views since then, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't call me a liar when you know good and well what you said.

Originally posted by Q99
The fact is, between Tiin and Agen, neither actually has a feat that requires high council skill and they also compare unfavorable to Kit Fisto in a side-by-side battle against the same foe.

Kit blocked a few blows from Palpatine, who was engaging Windu at the exact same time. It could be argued that Fisto had more time to put up a defense, considering he was the third to be attacked, and that the first two had their sabers in a position to strike at Sidious instead of attempting to block his attack.

As NewGuy pointed out, Agen was implied to being the best out of the three, considering he was the first person Windu had in mind to face Sidious.

Originally posted by Q99
Windu actually pushed onto the offensive, on his own, beyond what both brothers together could manage. Maul and Savage when working together were able to do some work, but not what Windu managed to accomplish.

Your argument was, that Maul did very well because he wasn't forced on the defensive with less support. That logic can be applied to Windu as well, given that Windu entered the fight with far more support and was force on the defensive until the end of the fight. He didn't accomplish anything until the superconductive loop of vapaad was fully completed, which by your logic, without that particular benefit of vapaad, Maul is better than Windu.

Furthermore, Palpatine went about each fight very differently. He wasn't fighting aggressively with the bros, and allowed them to initiate the saber duel and make their first move; whereas with the council members, he was far more aggressive, attacked first, and went straight for the kill.

Originally posted by Q99
You really aren't good at this 'making my opinions up' stuff.

I'm very good at remembering the arguments of ones I have debated with, and I'm also good at turning ones logic against them.

Originally posted by Q99
He was certainly aiming to defeat Maul.

Aiming to defeat is different than aiming to kill.

Hell, even during their one on one when Maul was bathed in pure rage, he barely lasted a little over 20 seconds against a Sidious who was holding back. Considering those circumstances, Sidious quickly ended the fight.

In case you don't know, let me explain how rage can enhance a force users performance. Anakin was able to overpower Dooku in a saber duel with his rage; Ventress was able to overpower both Skywalker and Kenobi in a force choke with her rage; Savage was able to overpower both Dooku and Ventress in a force choke, and then proceeded to send them flying against the wall of Dooku's ship via rage, which eventually forced Dooku to flee from the fight; when AOTC Kenobi focused his rage on Maul, he momentarily gained a brief advantage despite being leagues below the sith lord.

With those examples being said, all rage did for Maul in his one on one with Sidious, was allow him to last a little over 20 seconds against Sidious, who still was holding back and not trying to kill Maul. Again, considering those circumstances, Maul didn't last that long that long. Even when analyzing Sidious one on one with Maul, he wasn't as aggressive as he was against the council members. He laughed his ass off while Maul watched his brother die, proceeded to taunt Maul about being replaced, and then just stood there and allowed Maul to come at him with everything he had.

Sidious' entire battle with the brothers served to fulfill his amusement, as evident just from watching the fight itself, along with Maul's musing in Shadow Conspiracy that he sensed a terrible pleasure in Sidious, and Filoni's statement that Palpatine was enjoying the fight.

I doubt Sidious could afford to mess around and enjoy his fight with all 4 council members without endangering his own life, which is why he went straight for the kill during the initial part of the fight.

Originally posted by Q99
He was also aiming to kill Savage.

He was also aiming to kill Luke, but was taking his time in doing so, because he was getting pleasure in seeing Luke suffer. When Sidious gets a pleasure out of something he has consistently shown to prolong the situation, which was the case during his battle against the bros.

Originally posted by Q99
yet only once Savage was alone did the difference become so big that he could casually do so.

If Sidious can kill two council members before Mace + Kit could do a thing about it, he could have disposed of Savage any time he wanted. You could see Sidious was handling them both at the same time casually, blocking and evading their attacks, while landing multiple of his own physical attacks. But by your logic, since they weren't being forced on the defensive, means they were doing well. Even during his one on one with Savage, he never even force Savage on the defensive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are we lying now?

You've asserted Krayt was on par with Sidious, and concluded that it was logical. You have also made direct comparisons to his fight against the IKs to Palpatine's fight against the council members.

If you have changed your views since then, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't call me a liar when you know good and well what you said.

Pff, you may be lying, but I'm not.

I have compared them because they are similar in type, but they are not the same in magnitude. 3 council members > 4 Imperial Knights.

"Hey, what are good examples of characters blitzing entire groups of masters?" I can think of.... two examples of this being done. It's hardly odd that the two get compared.

You can't make me into the strawman you're projecting.

If you sincerely have been misunderstanding me for some time then.... sorry, but that's still on you.

Kit blocked a few blows from Palpatine, who was engaging Windu at the exact same time. It could be argued that Fisto had more time to put up a defense, considering he was the third to be attacked, and that the first two had their sabers in a position to strike at Sidious instead of attempting to block his attack.

Arguably.

But still, while it's *possible* Kit survived the longest out of circumstances, there's the other matter that the others still have inferior feats.

Kit Fisto has his feats against Grievous, which is better than any combat Agen Kolar has shown, period.

'They maybe possibly could be stronger' doesn't change that Fisto is still in possession of the higher feats.

As NewGuy pointed out, Agen was implied to being the best out of the three, considering he was the first person Windu had in mind to face Sidious.

Remember Agen from the Quinlan Vos comic? He's one of the most staunch about hunting down darksiders. It may not have been because of *power* that he came to mind first, and more because Agen is, out of several strong fighters, the one who'd want it most.

Your argument was, that Maul did very well because he wasn't forced on the defensive with less support. That logic can be applied to Windu as well, given that Windu entered the fight with far more support and was force on the defensive until the end of the fight.

Except while he started with more support, 2/3rds of it was gone before they could offer *any* support, and the last of it stayed around for just 2-3 blows. Savage stayed around for a good deal longer.

So Windu effectively had much more support, and support that certainly did more supporting.

He didn't accomplish anything until the superconductive loop of vapaad was fully completed, which by your logic, without that particular benefit of vapaad, Maul is better than Windu.

You should stop saying 'by your logic'. You're using your logic, which doesn't actually seem to be very good at modeling mine 🙂

Once it was one on one, Windu held out defensively until he was able to use an ability he, gasp, had in his arsenal to win. Once it was one on one, Sidious pushed Maul until he was down.

I'm very good at remembering the arguments of ones I have debated with, and I'm also good at turning ones logic against them.

Hey, you've failed at both here. You've mistaken 'comparing two feats of similar type but different level' for saying they're the same, and you also keep on having to leave out parts of the fights to try and make your crude approximation of my logic to try and fit your conclusions.

You aren't that good at either. At least not with me.

You could see Sidious was handling them both at the same time casually, blocking and evading their attacks, while landing multiple of his own physical attacks. But by your logic, since they weren't being forced on the defensive, means they were doing well.

Unless, of course, landing multiple physical attacks on them is a different sign of having an advantage. Which it is.

Again, you are bad at trying to model my logic. You keep on having to leave out parts of the fight to try and force it in, and that doesn't work.

However, I will also note it wasn't all that casual all the time- they landed two physical attacks on him during the fight. He landed more, and far better, attacks, so he had the clear edge, but they were not simply being toyed with the whole time.

I will also note the reason the creator said they lasted longer is because they were better. So there's that too.

Even during his one on one with Savage, he never even force Savage on the defensive.

.... he literally turned off his sabers and danced around Savage's attacks. Then hit him with a physical attack so hard Savage just stood there stunned until he was killed. Which was the second physical attack strong enough to knock Savage back Sidious had landed in a very, very brief fight.

That's better than forcing someone on the defensive.

With all the attacks Sidious was landing, I'd say it's fair to say that Savage wasn't on the defense more because Sidious was simply able to get past his defense so easily.

Enough with the Agen was the first Mace wanted to take. Its fanfiction. In the ROTS novel Kit, Saesee, and Shaak Ti are all offworld when they make that statement.

His only other choices of good fighters were Anakin (obviously not), Shaak-Ti (who was left to guard the temple iirc) and Drallig (lmao).

Also Windu was a moron for not at least contacting Yoda or having someone ready to spread the word to the Republic and Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His only other choices of good fighters were Anakin (obviously not), Shaak-Ti (who was left to guard the temple iirc) and Drallig (lmao).

I'm saying the quote where it says "Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move."

Was said not because Agen was better than Kit, Saesee, and Shaak Ti but because Kit, Agen, and Shaak Ti weren't even present.

"The only Council members physically present, other than
Obi-Wan and Anakin, were Mace Windu and Agen Kolar."

So the notion that Agen is better than any of them due to that quote is faulty at best.

Also Windu was a moron for not at least contacting Yoda or having someone ready to spread the word to the Republic and Jedi.

He did.
"Time it is to execute our plan."
"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous's death." Mace
flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his
emergency powers back over to the Senate."
"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may.
Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and
Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."
"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."
"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."
With a slow purse of the lips and an even slower nod, Yoda
said, "On watch you have been too long, my Padawan. Rest you
must."
"I will, Master. When the Republic is safe once more." Mace
straightened. "We are waiting only for your vote."
"Very well, then. Have my vote, you do. May the Force be with
you."

Originally posted by Q99
Pff, you may be lying, but I'm not.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t591180.html

You disagreed with NewGuy's claim that Krayt wasn't a peer of Luke.

Also, to quote you: "How can one be a clear peer of Luke but not Palpatine?"

Me (in this thread):

You have argued up and down, in the past, that Krayt rivaled Sidious. Quite recently, TBH.

You (in this thread):

Uh, no, not really.

Am I lying?

Originally posted by Q99
If you sincerely have been misunderstanding me for some time then.... sorry, but that's still on you.

Nope, you've outright argued that Krayt is a peer of Sidious, which basically means he rivals him. If that's not what you meant, then you shouldn't have said it nor argued it.

Originally posted by Q99
But still, while it's *possible* Kit survived the longest out of circumstances, there's the other matter that the others still have inferior feats.

Not really. Casually stomping Vos while only trying to apprehend him, is comparable to Kit's feat.

Originally posted by Q99
Kit Fisto has his feats against Grievous, which is better than any combat Agen Kolar has shown, period.

Probably. But you always use some of Krayt's non-combat feats in vs threads as a way of proving that some of his non-combat related feats suggest he has tremendous raw power. I could make a similar case regarding Tiin's out of combat feats, such as navigating a ship through hyperspace with the force alone, being implied as having greater raw power than Windu on account of throwing a battle droid farther, on top of being stated as having one of the strongest force abilities of all jedi in the order.

Originally posted by Q99
Except while he started with more support, 2/3rds of it was gone before they could offer *any* support, and the last of it stayed around for just 2-3 blows. Savage stayed around for a good deal longer.

You don't think the time it took for Sidious to cut down the first two masters with one blow each, didn't give Mace and Fisto any support? It should have at least gave Mace the advantage of putting Sidious on the defensive, instead of being forced on it.

Originally posted by Q99
So Windu effectively had much more support, and support that certainly did more supporting.

What?

Originally posted by Q99
Once it was one on one, Windu held out defensively until he was able to use an ability he, gasp, had in his arsenal to win. Once it was one on one, Sidious pushed Maul until he was down.

It's only an arsenal when facing dark siders, so by your logic, without that certain advantage Mace had against Sidious, Maul is a better duelist on account of not being forced on the defensive.

Originally posted by Q99
You aren't that good at either. At least not with me.

Especially with you.

Originally posted by Q99
Unless, of course, landing multiple physical attacks on them is a different sign of having an advantage. Which it is.

Yeah, that was kind of my point.

Originally posted by Q99
Again, you are bad at trying to model my logic. You keep on having to leave out parts of the fight to try and force it in, and that doesn't work.

What part did I leave out?

Originally posted by Q99
However, I will also note it wasn't all that casual all the time- they landed two physical attacks on him during the fight. He landed more, and far better, attacks, so he had the clear edge, but they were not simply being toyed with the whole time.

You mean the attack Savage landed while Sidious was in a very confined area, with no room to fall back on, other than over the balcony? The same attack Savage just so happened to land when Sidious was just standing there, pointing his saber at Maul, and smiling like a madman? The attack was landed due to Sidious not taking the fight seriously (as evident just by watching that particular sequence alone), not because Savage was just that good. If you want to ignore the circumstance, and suggest that Savage is better than the council members based on that one physical hit, then it would also suggest he is better than Maul, considering Maul was unable to land any physical hits on Sidious, until he was goaded into an enhanced rage.

Originally posted by Q99
I will also note the reason the creator said they lasted longer is because they were better. So there's that too.

No, it wasn't, otherwise he wouldn't have depicted Sidious has trolling them, and making the statement that Sidious was enjoying the fight. Sidious wasn't depicted as having the same demeanor with the council members, therefore the creators remark is irrelevant when it comes to a hypothetical vs match where context is to be considered.

It's like saying AOTC Kenobi was better than TCW season 6 Kenobi, because he did better and wasn't kicked left and right by Dooku despite going up against Dooku on his own during the fight on Geonosis. However, if context is to be considered, Dooku wasn't taking Kenobi seriously on Geonosis, and therefore Kenobi lasted longer and wasn't being kicked around like some weak feeb.

Originally posted by Q99
he literally turned off his sabers

He turned off his sabers during the two on one. He simply left them off when Savage got back up and came at him

Originally posted by Q99
and danced around Savage's attacks.

Similar to how he was doing during the two on one.

Originally posted by Q99
Then hit him with a physical attack so hard Savage just stood there stunned until he was killed.

Similar to how he hit Savage with a physical attack so hard that it sent him flying during the two on one. Both cases Sidious had his back towards Savage before making the physical attack, except when he was facing them both at once, he deactivated his sabers to do the unnecessary fancy stunt.

Originally posted by Q99
Which was the second physical attack strong enough to knock Savage back Sidious had landed in a very, very brief fight.

He also landed two physical attacks on Savage and one on Maul during the very, very brief two on one outside of the palace. Except the last physical attack he used on Savage during their two on one was a more powerful one than the one used during the one on one; not to mention a more unnecessary one, considering he shut off his sabers and did a complete back flip despite Maul being right in front of him. Again, at no point was Sidious shown to take that entire fight seriously, until a rage enhanced Maul landed a kick on him, and even then, Sidious felt that he had to end the fight by proving he was superior in strength instead of just using the force to his advantage.

Originally posted by Q99
That's better than forcing someone on the defensive.

Agreed, which is why not forcing Maul on the defensive, isn't an indication of Maul being that good. If that's not what you meant to suggest, then why bring up Maul not being forced on the defensive as a way of comparing him to the B-Team (considering Sidious wasn't even fighting Maul and Savage offensively, nor was he fighting as aggressively as he usually does, nor was he even trying to kill Maul)?

Originally posted by Q99
With all the attacks Sidious was landing, I'd say it's fair to say that Savage wasn't on the defense more because Sidious was simply able to get past his defense so easily.

Savage wasn't on the defense because Sidious wasn't fighting offensively. This was the case throughout the entire duel despite the fact that Sidious was dominating the entire time. Which goes back to one of my original points: Maul not being forced on the defensive doesn't suggest he is just that good anymore than it would suggest Savage was just that good during his one on one with Sidious. Sidious simply wasn't fighting offensively throughout the fight. Therefore, trying to compare the bros to the council members based on their performances against Sidious when Sidious treated both fights very differently, is a very bad way of gauging a difference between them. It's a very, very weak and lazy analysis.