Agen Kolar vs. Darth Talon

but at the time he was still a Jedi, albeit one that preferred the shadows. Agen was deliberately kept in the dark about the plan, so his responses and attitude would be genuine.

Luke serving Palpatine in Dark Empire was also intended to be a ruse.

Yes, nothing contradicts Dooku and Kolar being in the same teir, but the sample size is very small.

It's true that the sample size isn't large, but no matter which way you look it's still ultimately supported.

For instance, Saesee Tiin, who was implied was an inferior swordsman to Kolar, was capable of dueling Mace Windu to a draw in a sparring match between the two. While this does not mean Tiin was necessarily equivalent to Mace as a lightsaber duelist, it does support the insinuation that a duelist superior to Saesee could possibly be approaching Dooku and Mace.

Another example is Kit Fisto. He was able to solidly overmatch General Grievous, who has both challenged Dooku in their sparring sessions and fought Mace to a standstill at one point in time. Earlier in the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan openly admitted inferiority to Fisto after a sparring match between the two. Again, it supports that Kolar, who is even more talented as a swordsman than Kit, could definitely be approaching the higher tier duelists.

If the artist had drawn that fight in a different way, would you still have the same opinion?

Probably not, but the comparative nature of the two duels made it much easier to compare them realistically.

I'm not claiming Kolar's still is equivalent to Dooku's or even to Obi-Wan's, but he's definitely just around the corner. People tend to adopt the misconception that the main characters are on a league above their contemporaries, which is simply unsupported.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's a weakly concieved argument, Q99. I expect better from you.

Even if you choose to blatantly disregard the credit that Mace awards to Kolar, I've already mentioned that his performance against Quinlan Vos alone backs up his hype. It actually directly parallels Dooku's own performance against him:

Vos, at that point simply isn't that good. To quote Dooku, his dueling skills around then were "appalling."

I mean, I consider him reasonable at that point, despite Dooku's words, beating him that much is still impressive, but I'd expect Tiin, Fisto, Ki-Adi, Plo Koon, and such to be able to do the same thing. He didn't have his months of training under Dooku yet, and that helped him improve significantly. His vaapad improved, he gained more experience, his own showings improved...

Beating Vos-pre-Dooku-training does not put Kolar around the top of the Council rankings. It puts him at, well, a solid combat councilor! Mid-council, I'd say. And that's his highest positive feat. Throw in the negative feat, and there you go.

So I fully accept that feat, I just point out the circumstances. Sure, it's good, but good that a number of other good characters could also do.

Vos, at that point simply isn't that good. To quote Dooku, his dueling skills around then were "appalling."

Dooku said the same thing about Kenobi's technique, and he kicked the ass of the character you hype more than anyone. 😬

I mean, I consider him reasonable at that point, despite Dooku's words, beating him that much is still impressive, but I'd expect Tiin, Fisto, Ki-Adi, Plo Koon, and such to be able to do the same thing. He didn't have his months of training under Dooku yet, and that helped him improve significantly. His vaapad improved, he gained more experience, his own showings improved...

[After mentioning the absence of Kenobi and Yoda...] Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move.

He's been directly portrayed as a peer of Mace. His domination of Quinlan was equally if not more impressive than Dooku's. He's implied to be superior to the other B-Team members, both of which are contemporaries of Obi-Wan and Windu. What are you trying to argue? That this is all invalid information because it is your belief some Shaak Ti, who by the way is openly inferior, could replicate his feats?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke serving Palpatine in Dark Empire was also intended to be a ruse.

It's true that the sample size isn't large, but no matter which way you look it's still ultimately supported.

For instance, Saesee Tiin, who was implied was an inferior swordsman to Kolar, was capable of dueling Mace Windu to a draw in a sparring match between the two. While this does not mean Tiin was necessarily equivalent to Mace as a lightsaber duelist, it does support the insinuation that a duelist superior to Saesee could possibly be approaching Dooku and Mace.

Another example is Kit Fisto. He was able to solidly overmatch General Grievous, who has both challenged Dooku in their sparring sessions and fought Mace to a standstill at one point in time. Earlier in the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan openly admitted inferiority to Fisto after a sparring match between the two. Again, it supports that Kolar, who is even more talented as a swordsman than Kit, could definitely be approaching the higher tier duelists.

Probably not, but the comparative nature of the two duels made it much easier to compare them realistically.

I'm not claiming Kolar's still is equivalent to Dooku's or even to Obi-Wan's, but he's definitely just around the corner. People tend to adopt the misconception that the main characters are on a league above their contemporaries, which is simply unsupported.

I know that the ruse ultimately failed, since Vos did fall. I was merely pointing out that neither combatant was giving their all (Agen trying to bring in Vos, and Quinlan escaping but trying to make it look convincing).

Where is it stated that Tiin dueled Windu to a draw? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just only recall Qui-Gon Jinn dueling him to a draw, with Yoda and Dooku besting him.

I wasn't trying to accuse you of claiming Kolar is Dooku's equal. In fact, I was just getting some clarification, so I could avoid those same misconceptions you were talking about. I do agree that Kolar is regarded as one of the top duelists in the Order.

I know that the ruse ultimately failed, since Vos did fall. I was merely pointing out that neither combatant was giving their all

Even if that is true, I'd argue you are mistaken about your central point. Vos would probably not have killed Kolar given the chance, but it doesn't mean he was holding back. The same goes for Kolar, as well. The difference is that Kolar completely dominated him regardless, and was in a position where he "could have" killed him if he wished, unlike Vos. Again, I was drawing a comparison between Dooku and Kolar, and Quinlan wasn't attempting to kill Dooku either. This point is irrelevant.

As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if that is true, I'd argue you are mistaken about your central point. Vos would probably not have killed Kolar given the chance, but it doesn't mean he was holding back. The same goes for Kolar, as well. The difference is that Kolar completely dominated him regardless, and was in a position where he "could have" killed him if he wished, unlike Vos. Again, I was drawing a comparison between Dooku and Kolar, and Quinlan wasn't attempting to kill Dooku either. This point is irrelevant.

As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

Thanks for that reference. I had forgotten about that comic.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

haermm

Sparring = dueling to a draw. Lmao, ok.

Originally posted by Nephthys
haermm

Sparring = dueling to a draw. Lmao, ok.

Maybe not, but it's a valid comparison and nothing contradicts it

Especially when having a convo while sparring.

You mean like they do 90% of the fights in the Star Wars mythos?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if that is true, I'd argue you are mistaken about your central point. Vos would probably not have killed Kolar given the chance, but it doesn't mean he was holding back. The same goes for Kolar, as well. The difference is that Kolar completely dominated him regardless, and was in a position where he "could have" killed him if he wished, unlike Vos. Again, I was drawing a comparison between Dooku and Kolar, and Quinlan wasn't attempting to kill Dooku either. This point is irrelevant.

As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

Sparring does not equal = sparring on even ground with someone.

Mace also sparred with Quinlan Vos, I suppose that would make Agen approaching Mace level in terms of dueling, except...Sidious downed him quicker than a Krayt Dragon could down a Bantha.

Quinlan was curbed in his sparring match with Mace...

Also, addressing that singular point is meaningless. It's not even part of my argument, it simply backs up that it's a feasible claim.

If you deny Tiin would be capabie of it, just look to Sora Bulq, then.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quinlan was curbed in his sparring match with Mace...

Curbed? He got force pushed after he used a Vaapad manuver.

Also, addressing that singular point is meaningless. It's not even part of my argument, it simply backs up that it's a feasible claim.

If you deny Tiin would be capabie of it, just look to Sora Bulq, then.

Sora Bulq is a master of the seven forms, coinventor of Vaapad and likely has a ton of experience sparring with Mace. He has far superior accolades than Tiin. Even if Kolar was on par with Bulq he got wtfpwned by Dooku.

Agen Kolar is one of the greatest bladesbeings in history, as well as a peer of Mace Windu. His performance against Quinlan mirrored Dooku's almost perfectly. He was considered not only to be qualified to take on a Sith Lord more powerful than the Count, but also to be the best of the Jedi remaining in the Order after Kenobi's departure. Shaak Ti openly admits inferiority to a team of which he is the best of.

I see absolutely no reason for Sora to be classified as Agen's superior. Even if Sora were Kolar's equal my point would be the same, though. Bulq is a peer of Mace, this is a well known fact within the Order and was demonstrated in their battle. Dooku being able to dismiss him with the Force doesn't contradict that.

Kolar is in the same position regardless. He, and the rest of Mace's team, are severely underestimated. This has nothing to do with the PT and other eras like many claim, it has to do with the PT and itself.

Shaak Ti doesn't admit inferiority, bro.

She absolutely does.

"Anakin, why? These Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

That's not really admitting inferiority. She doesn't think *Anakin* is needed for the job, and we know he's a good deal stronger than any save maybe Windu.

She seems to think that 4 masters who could be included in a wider category that she considers 'the best,' but does not necessarily include *all* of the best, is enough, and there's really no need to offer any more aid.

NewGuy
Agen Kolar is one of the greatest bladesbeings in history, as well as a peer of Mace Windu. His performance against Quinlan mirrored Dooku's almost perfectly.

Yea, because Quinlan at that point simply did not require too high a level to beat up! Quinlan got better. He trained in Vaapad more, he trained under Dooku, etc..

Tiin could've kicked his ass too, as could Shaak, Fisto, Ki....

It's true that the sample size isn't large, but no matter which way you look it's still ultimately supported.

There's also the matter of Kolar's overwhelming loss vs Sidious, and his inferior performance to Fisto.

If you're trying to imply that Kolar is at or near Dooku level, I say there's no way Dooku would've gone like that. Heck, Maul didn't go down like that.

By feats, Agen is inferior to Dooku. His only positive feat of note is beating a Jedi Master who was, at that point, definitely not council level.

Agen has not just a positive feat, beating Quinlan, which establishes a minimum level of his power, but also a negative feat, getting chumped by Sidious, which establishes a maximum power, and a maximum power below anyone who would not get so chumped by Sids.

Originally posted by Q99
That's not really admitting inferiority. She doesn't think *Anakin* is needed for the job, and we know he's a good deal stronger than any save maybe Windu.

She seems to think that 4 masters who could be included in a wider category that she considers 'the best,' but does not necessarily include *all* of the best, is enough, and there's really no need to offer any more aid.

Agen has not just a positive feat, beating Quinlan, which establishes a minimum level of his power, but also a negative feat, getting chumped by Sidious, which establishes a maximum power, and a maximum power below anyone who would not get so chumped by Sids.

1) It heavily suggests that she agreed with Mace and the rest of the council, that the best remaining should go up against Sidious, which didn't include herself, who also happened to be one of the council members left remaining. We all know the reason they didn't pick Anakin for the mission, which wasn't for the same reason she wasn't.

2) To be fair, Lucas and Mcdiarmid made it pretty clear that pretty much all jedi not named Yoda and Mace are chumps compared to Sidious. Without the full benefits of vaapad, even Mace was being overwhelmed and forced into the main office during the beginning of the fight.

Also, the only reason you're making such a fuss, is because Palpatine's feat is 10 times better than Krayt cutting down the IGs. You want so badly for Krayt to be on Sidious's level, which he doesn't even approach.

As for Maul, I'm not sure why you keep referencing that fight. He really didn't last that long against Sidious, considering the circumstances.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Agen Kolar is one of the greatest bladesbeings in history, as well as a peer of Mace Windu. His performance against Quinlan mirrored Dooku's almost perfectly. He was considered not only to be qualified to take on a Sith Lord more powerful than the Count, but also to be the best of the Jedi remaining in the Order after Kenobi's departure. Shaak Ti openly admits inferiority to a team of which he is the best of.

He's not a peer of Mace Windu. Also Kolar isn't the only one who gets hype.

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber
technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from
the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely
the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa
Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is
nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can
become."

By this logic, Mace and Depa are on similar level of swordsmanship (which Mace himself admits), and Shaak Ti and Dooku are on a similar level. So boom I guess Shaak Ti is Dooku level.

I see absolutely no reason for Sora to be classified as Agen's superior. Even if Sora were Kolar's equal my point would be the same, though. Bulq is a peer of Mace, this is a well known fact within the Order and was demonstrated in their battle. Dooku being able to dismiss him with the Force doesn't contradict that.

He has far more hype. And Dooku fending him and Tholme off are more than enough to dismiss him as Mace or Dooku's equal.

Kolar is in the same position regardless. He, and the rest of Mace's team, are severely underestimated. This has nothing to do with the PT and other eras like many claim, it has to do with the PT and itself.

Kolar isn't Mace level for ****'s sake. He is one of the most gifted swordsmen in galactic history, no doubt about that, but he doesn't rival Mace or even Kenobi as a swordsman.

I'd Agen rivals Kenobi.