Emperor's Wrath II vs. Galen Marek

Look, we have 3 different sources for Marek (game, comic, and book). The novelization has, in the past, been used to reference his abilities. If we're going to look at his dueling skill from these sources, then we have to look at his Force abilities from those same sources. Otherwise, that's willfully ignoring canon. That being said, Marek's dueling skill was enough to legitimately defeat Vader, and his Force abilities have been more impressive. I do agree that the Wrath would outduel Marek, but I think he wins the Force and All Out portions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or that Marek isn't as powerful as he's portrayed in exaggerated material.

Canon material is canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader was defeated by Maul shortly after this.

Don't remember this happening. Although, I do recall reading a comic wherein Vader kills a Maul clone after nearly losing. And in said fight Vader didn't use any force powers.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader in his prime is well above Galen Marek. Vader well below his prime is on par with the Clone who is stronger than Galen Marek. The fact that I've seen Marek move starships means nothing when he can't overwhelm anyone with these same abilities.

Shows you how impressive Vader in his prime truly is.

👆

Marek defeating Vader means nothing when he couldn't compete with the same Vader who is on par with Obi-Wan well out of his prime. His track record means more than anything do to the way that he is portrayed. And honestly, the novel, the game, and the comic all have Force abilities over some of the things even Palpatine has ever claimed up until that point. It's not like any of them are reliable when judging Marek, especially when he almost gets stomped shortly after.

Originally posted by ares834
Canon material is canon.

Don't remember this happening. Although, I do recall reading a comic wherein Vader kills a Maul clone after nearly losing. And in said fight Vader didn't use any force powers.

Right. It is canon. And exaggerated.

And some random Maul clone was obviously vastly superior to the original, right? Vader did use the Force, just not on Maul directly.

So what you are saying is Old Ben stomps this guys as well.

🙂 Nice.

It's hard to tell if you're just trolling at this point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right. It is canon. And exaggerated.

Interesting. Yet, contradictory.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And some random Maul clone was obviously vastly superior to the original, right? Vader did use the Force, just not on Maul directly.

Nah. He is just lucky Vader didn't crush him into a ball. Just liek every opponent that faces Luke or Abeloth or pretty much any time a non-force user confronts a Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
So what you are saying is Old Ben stomps this guys as well.

🙂 Nice.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Marek defeating Vader means nothing when he couldn't compete with the same Vader who is on par with Obi-Wan well out of his prime. His track record means more than anything do to the way that he is portrayed. And honestly, the novel, the game, and the comic all have Force abilities over some of the things even Palpatine has ever claimed up until that point. It's not like any of them are reliable when judging Marek, especially when he almost gets stomped shortly after.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You can't just ignore everything on Marek, solely because you think he's too powerful. Remember, they were manipulating artificial black holes in NJO. How is this any worse?

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's hard to tell if you're just trolling at this point.

What gave it away? Obviously, I doubt Old Ben could defeat this guy. But inconsistent power levels run rampant throughout Star Wars. Characters have lower end feats but I don't hold that against them. Unless, they have "teh z0ne" moments I debate about the characters operating at their best not their worst.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You can't just ignore everything on Marek, solely because you think he's too powerful. Remember, they were manipulating artificial black holes in NJO. How is this any worse?

Vader struggled with Obi-Wan out of his prime.
This Vader is well above Galen Marek and is only on par with his clone.

If Galen Marek can't compete with the Shadow of Obi-Wan, he's not all that powerful. It has nothing to do with ignoring Marek's feats. All it does is show that even in his own exaggeration, Marek is not all that powerful.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, that's not what I said at all.

Vader struggled with Obi-Wan out of his prime.
This Vader is well above Galen Marek and is only on par with his clone.

If Galen Marek can't compete with the Shadow of Obi-Wan, he's not all that powerful. It has nothing to do with ignoring Marek's feats. All it does is show that even in his own exaggeration, Marek is not all that powerful.

But isn't that an ABC argument? How do you know Marek wouldn't be able to defeat Obi-Wan? That ANH duel was strictly sabers, and I've already stated that Marek was a better duelist than his clone. Plus, he's shown that if he doesn't hold the advantage in sabers, he'll immediately resort to using the Force, something this forum (minus me, but I bow to the majority) has agreed that Kenobi has problems defending against...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, that's not what I said at all.

Vader struggled with Obi-Wan out of his prime.
This Vader is well above Galen Marek and is only on par with his clone.

If Galen Marek can't compete with the Shadow of Obi-Wan, he's not all that powerful. It has nothing to do with ignoring Marek's feats. All it does is show that even in his own exaggeration, Marek is not all that powerful.

Using the same logic Desann > DE Palpatine...

So anyone other than ares got an opinion here?

Not really. Not only was Desann amped, he actually surprised Luke. Darth Vader vs Obi-Wan was an honest duel. Also, during the final duel of DE, Luke was being amped/helped by Leia.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So anyone other than ares got an opinion here?

I have been commenting in this thread.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
But isn't that an ABC argument? How do you know Marek wouldn't be able to defeat Obi-Wan? That ANH duel was strictly sabers, and I've already stated that Marek was a better duelist than his clone. Plus, he's shown that if he doesn't hold the advantage in sabers, he'll immediately resort to using the Force, something this forum (minus me, but I bow to the majority) has agreed that Kenobi has problems defending against...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Wrath is a better saberist than Marek, so the part about the Clone being a lesser saberist is irrelevant. The clone that was better than Marek in the Force did the same thing against Vader and lost. He only overwhelmed Vader with the environmental advantage. I honestly think the clone could defeat the Wrath, and the Dark Apprentice destroys, but Galen Marek himself is just not strong enough in the Force.

I never said Marek would defeat the Wrath in sabers, in fact I agreed with Neph that he would lose. Starkiller's saber skill was being called into question, and I was pointing out that it didn't matter, because he was inferior to Marek in that department. The clone wasn't defeated by Vader in sabers, either. Starkiller willingly had Vader disarm him, so he could surprise Vader with the concentrated lightning burst. Before that, they were dueling evenly. And as far as being on ANH Kenobi's level, I don't see how any of that is relevant, since the Force wasn't used in that fight.

I'm going out of town, so I won't be able to respond for a couple of hours.

The duel with Obi-Wan shows just how outclassed Marek is in sabers here. Vader improved in sabers considerably between the two games, so the amount of saber skill he has is relevant. The Clone also had no delusion of being Vader's match in sabers either, so while he may have willingly let himself be disarmed, it was more likely because he had no other option. Either way, Starkiller's Lightning wasn't enough to overwhelm Vader. Marek's skill in the Force is even lesser than this.

And no rush.