Emperor's Wrath II vs. Galen Marek

Keep clinging to low showings to "prove" your argument. After all, Quanchi's favorite debating style is unsurpassed. 🙂

So everytime a character is doing well, that's their combat prowess, but when they get their ass handed to them, that's a low showing.

No. But that's not what happened here.

Isn't it hypocritical of you to chide me about ignoring canon then ignore "low end feats?"

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't it hypocritical of you to chide me about ignoring canon then ignore "low end feats?"

Nope. I don't ignore them, they happened. However, as I said earlier, when I debate I assume said character is battling at their best.

So what makes you think these loses are any less valid?

First, it's not a loss.

Secondly, it's a far lesser feat than many of Vader's others. Is it as "valid" as the others? Sure. But I debate characters operating at their best, not their worst. Debating based on characters lesser feats is lowballing. Always has been.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The duel with Obi-Wan shows just how outclassed Marek is in sabers here. Vader improved in sabers considerably between the two games, so the amount of saber skill he has is relevant. The Clone also had no delusion of being Vader's match in sabers either, so while he may have willingly let himself be disarmed, it was more likely because he had no other option. Either way, Starkiller's Lightning wasn't enough to overwhelm Vader. Marek's skill in the Force is even lesser than this.

And no rush.

Finally made it back.

The saber portion is irrelevant, imo. I believe Marek would lose in sabers to Wrath. That being said, I think the ANH duel is being taken a little too seriously. Vader, to me, looked like he was toying with Kenobi, and Obi-Wan did show signs of being pressured. Looking at that, I don't see anything that would put ANH Obi-Wan over Marek.

Since this is about Marek vs Wrath, though, we need to looks at his Force feats, which I use the book for. I don't look at the game because other than the KOTOR/TOR series, there's usually another source with more accurate information and representations of the characters. In the book, his lightning was powerful enough to shut down an AT-AT in one blast, and while he just redirected it, the feat with the Star Destroyer above Raxus Prime still shows impressive power.

Originally posted by ares834
First, it's not a loss.

Secondly, it's a far lesser feat than many of Vader's others. Is it as "valid" as the others? Sure. But I debate characters operating at their best, not their worst. Debating based on characters lesser feats is lowballing. Always has been.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes

The saber portion is irrelevant, imo. I believe Marek would lose in sabers to Wrath. That being said, I think the ANH duel is being taken a little too seriously. Vader, to me, looked like he was toying with Kenobi, and Obi-Wan did show signs of being pressured. Looking at that, I don't see anything that would put ANH Obi-Wan over Marek.

Since this is about Marek vs Wrath, though, we need to looks at his Force feats, which I use the book for. I don't look at the game because other than the KOTOR/TOR series, there's usually another source with more accurate information and representations of the characters. In the book, his lightning was powerful enough to shut down an AT-AT in one blast, and while he just redirected it, the feat with the Star Destroyer above Raxus Prime still shows impressive power.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Losing to your strongest opponent is not lowballing. And as far as I'm concerned Marek's clone was done when he faced Vader, if not for the setting. And the clone is stronger than Marek.

Using the Obi-Wan fight as the basis of Vader's dueling capabilities is lowballing though.

And you're not merely using it to diminish Vader, but Marek as well...

FreshestSlice, you keep mentioning the setting, when referring to Starkiller's fight against Vader. Are you talking about the lightning rods used in the game, but not in the book?

It has nothing to do with lowballing, as I see nothing to say that Vader wasn't fighting to the fullest of his capabilities just because it's Obi-Wan. The point was to show how firmly below these others Marek is in sabers, yes, but it has nothing to do with how bad Vader is. I just consider the Wrath better than Obi-Wan in sabers. If Marek can't keep up, oh well.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
FreshestSlice, you keep mentioning the setting, when referring to Starkiller's fight against Vader. Are you talking about the lightning rods used in the game, but not in the book?

facepalm

It's a lowballing... You're judging Vader's lightsaber skills based on one of his worst (low) showings. That's what lowballing means.

How exactly is it one of his worst showings when he was losing to Maul just after? Could it possibly be that Vader just wasn't near his prime?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sure, both are valid. Especially if we're going to consider Marek shocking an AT-AT into submission valid. But more importantly, Kamino is an optimal setting to attack someone vulnerable to Lightning, especially considering the constant raining.

I'm not disputing that part, but the lightning rods, not being in the novelization provides an inconsistency. In the novel, Starkiller used Force lightning and disarmed Vader, to win the fight.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How exactly is it one of his worst showings when he was losing to Maul just after? Could it possibly be that Vader just wasn't near his prime?

It's one of his worst showings because it's one of his worst showings. 😐

Hell, he was initially besting Maul until Maul used two sabers and, of course, Maul is a better swordsman than Old Ben. Then, there are Vader's other saber feats from stories set before ANH that shows his great skill (well in excess of what he displayed in ANH).

Lol. I wonder which user he's gonna imitate in his user name next. After this one gets banned I mean.

Can someone actually list some feats and quotes (something specific) regarding The Wrath's skill with a blade? Then maybe some force feats, if that's not too hard? You guys are too hung up on how Vader's fight with Kenobi was displayed in ANH, which using that logic, Sidious is in the same boat. The fact that Kenobi managed to last a while against Vader, speaks very well for his skill in defense. After all, Kenobi was never the most aggressive fighter anyway, and he would only need superfast reflexes/reaction speed to match Vader's striking speed and a proper defense. That's not a low saber showing for Vader, it's a very good one for old Kenobi. I get it, though, not too many force users can match Vader in skill (highly sufficient in all saber forms enough to incorporate them in his own unique style, and taking on and defeating other skilled duelists) and raw power (crushing tie fighters with a gesture, throwing several ton vehicles and/or starships, etc...), so the best thing to do is keep quiet on the TOR era characters, and attack the PT era's character in an attempt to nitpick at and diminish certain feats. That's pretty much how debates have been going on around here, and it's getting a bit weak. Vader has shown tremendous raw power out side of TFU novels, so there's no reason to assume that the main character of said novels is an exaggerated one.

Also for those of you who keep on bringing up why 'such and such' characters were unable to beat 'so and so,' who weren't shown to do 'this and that,' might I just remind everyone that TOR's most dominate force user (who is actually a very clumsy and [apparently] blind old man who runs into sabers) is lacking in actual combat showings. I mean, his best is good, but not overwhelmingly so.

I actually did a fighting style analysis for both Vader and Old Ben