Originally posted by Selenial
Again, you keep saying the theory about Surik being weakened is completely wrong, despite Drew effectively saying "I don't like giving definitive answers, but that theory is definitely valid"
I still think my theory is the best explanation. IIRC Drew did claim she'd recovered her natural Force connection at one point, which would be a great explanation since Meetra was only ever an (above) average Jedi prior to Malachor.
Originally posted by Selenial
Nihilus alone was the most dangerous being to ever appear in the Galaxy,
World Razer.
Originally posted by Q99
The Vong ship has better quality, though... it has superior fighters... the larger one is just all-around stronger..
Those "superior" fighters are not consistent in their defensive capabilities.
Mark VI Supremacy-class starfighters had to contend with "superior" Republic starfighters, in case you don't know (wait, you really don't know). As I pointed out before, additional factors make difference in engagements including tactics and decision-making. Harrower-class starship permitted rapid deployment of its starfighter fleets during battles (timing factor) and its starfighters and bombers were also difficult to spot out in the space due to their stealthy attributes.
Originally posted by Q99
Except they're outnumbered and it took late-model X-wings, preferably with special modifications, to match Coralskippers.
Originally posted by Q99
Coralskippers are effective against capital ships, and 32 is a pretty small number that are unlikely to make it through fighter screens / interception.
A single B28 Extinction-class bomber packed considerable firepower. Due to this factor, these bombers were often utilized to bombard planet landscapes. 32 of these bombers can destroy any vessel.
Originally posted by Q99
No, they can try and close, but that just makes it a chase while the carrier's fighters eat away at both the Harrower's fighters and the Harrower itself.
Harrower-class starships existed with multiple configurations, some customized variants packed sufficient firepower to swiftly destroy whole fleets and even planets.
Originally posted by Q99
It very much matters. A Victory and Imperial are just as efficient, but one's stronger because it's bigger. A Nebula B is highly efficient, but much weaker than a Victory.
Originally posted by Q99
I don't know why you think size doesn't matter, it very much matters, larger ships usually have the edge in SW, with even the exceptions not being that far off (Mon Cals are more efficient than ISDs and thus a close match despite being moderately smaller... but they aren't *that* much smaller)
Size permits installation of larger quantity of weapons. However, quality > quantity doctrine remains the best.
Some Harrower-class starships were fitted with superweapons which allowed these starships to singlehandedly obliterate entire fleets and devastate entire planets.
I hope you don't become a general, Q99. Kidding, but this is a serious point.
Originally posted by Q99
Nor, mind you, is there any evidence that the Harrower has an efficiency edge.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, and Vong cruisers fought evenly against larger ships that had every one of those advances included (ISDs).If they're an even match for an ISD, they're superior to a Harrower.
Originally posted by Q99
True, the difference is slight until the post-OT era (when some advantages do happen. Legacy manages to improve Turbolasers)... however, that still leaves the issue of similar efficiency on larger ships.
During my play-through of SWTOR Jedi Knight story, I was often subjected to choices that had major repercussions. Republic had several superweapon projects in secrecy and their fate were discussed between Jedi Knight and the General; Light side choices are to abandon those projects and eliminate their traces because of their destructive potential even though they had the potential to turn the tide of "any future war."
I assume that Harrower-class starships falling in to the hands of Republic were doomed to elimination to prevent spread of knowledge of its capabilities. This assumption makes sense since we do not see technologies such as Silencers and Desolators being commonly manufactured or even existing in future eras. Yes, certain schematics may have been studied and adopted as noted in some future starship designs but not every aspect. Therefore, scientists mostly found themselves in the situation to re-invent stuff in future eras.
Get the big picture now?
Originally posted by Q99
Different realities, similar practical effect.
Originally posted by Q99
In that they possess no non-biological technology at all... however, in biological technology they are incredibly sophisticated organisms.
Originally posted by Q99
They are by no means primitive, they are equally advanced in a different way.
Originally posted by Q99
Which has both advantages and disadvantages over shielding- indeed, early in the war they were more advantageous than not, and only later on were the effects more even.
Originally posted by Q99
I think you're misremembering things. The Vong continued to inflict heavy losses even late in the war, their fleets were by no-means crushed, but the galaxy had geared up more and more and had the number's advantage increasingly in the Alliance's side. But the fights were brutal and at no point did their ships become easy picking, they just no longer had the initial edge that unfamiliarity gave them.In the end, their fleets were not even destroyed in fighting, but rather they signed a treaty, got rid of their fleet, and moved off on a living planet.
Have you read the Essential Guide to War? It goes over the war in a lot of strategic detail.
Here is just one example:
The Claatuvac routes were long considered the stuff of legend, but they existed: Chewbacca used them profitably for smuggling, and passed them to Princess Leia after the Battle of Hoth, giving Alliance High Command a great asset in its struggle with the Empire. Later, Admiral Ackbar exploited the Yuuzhan Vong's ignorance of hyperspace routes by tempting them into a trap at Ebaq in the Deep Core, where their main war fleet was wrecked and Warmaster Tsavong Lah died. (Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)
Observation: Vong lost its main fleet in a single battle.
Originally posted by Q99
Ships commanding by Malgus, and simply due to getting the drop on them.If one Harrower is such a fleet buster, even the element of surprise shouldn't matter than much, especially
Doombringer could swiftly obliterate entire fleets of the Republic, as an example. It even did.
Originally posted by Q99
Problem: Those fancy weapons? According to their inventor, Darth Mehkis, without a Sun Razer those normally take a decade to make.So yea, you *can* make a Harrower massively powerful, but only by making it cost as much as fleets to begin with.
The option is either have large fleets of outmatched Harrowers... or a tiny few Silencer-equipped Harrowers that are massively outnumbered.
Sun Razer project was intended to quicken production of major weapons, it was the ultimate solution.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but the Vong are good at that too.Going toe-to-toe certainly helps.
Vong benefitted from poor-decision making and lack of proper coordination within the NRDF during many situations. Details provided below.
Originally posted by Q99
Not everyone, but it is the number one reason wars are won and lost.The Vong lost due to logistics. The CIS lost due to logistics.
The Mandalorian's assaults in the Mandalorian war badly stalled due to logistics.
The TOR Sith Empire had a similar problem with their initial conquests and the need for their logistics to catch up with their conquests.
The Old Sith Empire pretty much never had a chance against the Republic militarily because it's logistics base was so much smaller, they were entirely dependent on the Sith pulling something on the force to win (and even Naga Sadow's ability in his meditation sphere to make a star blow up and do mass battlefield illusions turned out to not be near enough! Once he was countered, they were crushed).
At the end of the day, if you have good commanders and good ships and superior numbers/ability to replace numbers, you have a very significant edge.
And similarly, if you have good commanders and good ships, but pressing too hard costs you too many ships and makes you stop and gives your opponent time to counterattack, winning is a *much* more uphill battle. It can be done, but it's certainly harder.
Ah, but it is. Hyperspace routes are still limited (some are much faster than others, some areas can be slow), and ship-capacity even more so.
Loses are very much relative to logistics. If one side wins a fight and loses 20 ships, and the other side loses and loses 25 ships, but the other side can build 25 in the time it takes the former to build 18, the 'loser' is winning.
This, btw, is a large part of why Grievous fled so much in TCW. As long as his fleet was intact, the war went on. But if too much of his fleet was destroyed at once, the CIS becomes vulnerable and the Republic crushes them. So it was in his best interests to flee rather than get into costly fights, even victorious ones- he'd lose by winning if he did.
Logistics wins wars. Read the Essential Guide to Warfare, which goes into the flow of most of the wars in SW. Not TOR (which was still too new at the time), but many of the others.
You are conveniently attributing loss of Vong in the war to logistics problems but you are overlooking other facts and developments. Vong's initial progress in the war and conquests is direct outcome of cowardice and internal rifts plaguing leadership of the New Republic Defense Force (NRDF), Vong were allowed to advance and capture many worlds unopposed and this resulted in decline in morale of citizens and even troops of the Republic. Their was also lack of coordination between NRDF and Jedi Order during battles which led to many Jedi being targeted for assassination by Vong forces.
When proper coordination did took place, this was the result:
At Ithor, the Imperial Navy stood and fought, with Bothan and Jedi support. They didn’t wait for Sovv’s permission before they forced the battle, and they destroyed the Domain Shai warfleet with minimal casualties. (Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)
But the aforementioned developments were rare, thanks to idiocy of leadership of NRDF.
In hindsight, it seems clear that the Vong's success owed a great deal to New Republic and Galactic Alliance failings. The Defense Force commanders surrendered territory and worlds to chase the mirage of a decisive fleet battle.
They also neglected commerce raiding, pinpoint attacks, and local defense—tactics that had been instrumental for the Rebellion. Above all, they didn’t allow local commanders much freedom to maneuver. Tsavong Lah was more than half monster, but at least he rewarded initiative, whereas Sovv sidelined and court-martialed people for it.
That's not the whole story, though.
It's all very well to say that Sien Sovv and Turk Brand sacrificed unnecessary lives to the dark gods of logistical discipline. It’s probably true. But no one stopped them, either. A lot of ordinary people saw what they were doing—and let them do it.
And that, I suppose, is what’s really meant by the banality of evil. (Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)
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My contention is not about potential of Vong ships, it is about misplaced underestimation of Harrower-class starships. I hope you learn something from this discussion.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fellow member Selenial stated that even a random Vong starship is more then a match for any starship of TOR era, this is why I made that comparison and proved her assertion wrong.
Get your facts straight before you post, it makes you look like a ****ing moron when you post bullshit like this.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Where it has been stated that Surik was weakened or you want to promote your theory as a fact?When did he say this?
This is so wrong. He could be blasted in to oblivion out in the space by starships and such.
Also, I don't buy the argument that only Surik could stop Nihilus at personal capacity. I think Emperor Vitiate could as well.
Of course, the emperor can beat Nihilus, "'cuz reasons" 😮💨
No he couldn't, as was evidenced when the republic fleet arrived and "couldn't even scratch" Nihilus' ship. His will holding that starship together was strong enough to mean his ship couldn't be destroyed.
And he said this in the latest Email correspondence that I posted on these forums about 2 weeks ago, that you commented on. Having memory problems dear? 😕
Originally posted by Selenial
Of course, the emperor can beat Nihilus, "'cuz reasons" 😮💨No he couldn't, as was evidenced when the republic fleet arrived and "couldn't even scratch" Nihilus' ship. His will holding that starship together was strong enough to mean his ship couldn't be destroyed.
And he said this in the latest Email correspondence that I posted on these forums about 2 weeks ago, that you commented on. Having memory problems dear? 😕
Mr. Drew might have stated it to SU people such as you, his comments are often controversial in private conversations.
Provide official evidence, if you can.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorry, I meant Executor-class Star Dreadnought
I don't understand the point of your post though.
The Executor fell in battle because Hundreds of smaller ships turned their sights on it.
The Executor wouldn't fall against 1 ship of a smaller size, or two ships, or three, it needs an armada to take it out.
Besides, the Executor was built to look intimidating, not to work in massive fleet battles.
Originally posted by Selenial
I don't understand the point of your post though.The Executor fell in battle because Hundreds of smaller ships turned their sights on it.
The Executor wouldn't fall against 1 ship of a smaller size, or two ships, or three, it needs an armada to take it out.
Besides, the Executor was built to look intimidating, not to work in massive fleet battles.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh, I didn't realize that Darth Nihilus and his flagship were invincible. 🙄Mr. Drew might have stated it to SU people such as you, his comments are often controversial in private conversations.
Provide official evidence, if you can.
You're so naive to larger debates, you just look at what was in the post and not what you've said in the past.
There has been a massive fan theory about Surik being weakened, and NO evidence against it, just a lot of people saying "No I don't want to believe this so I won't."
Their only defense is that Drew wouldn't have tried to write it in such a way, and then when Drew's asked about it, it's called "A valid theory"
And yes, Nihilus' flagship was invincible to every other ship at the same time, only being destroyed from the inside would do it.
And again, you need to look at the big picture. Your argument was that Nihilus could be blown apart in space, yet 4 torpedoes that would obliterate the ship from the inside were placed, and the Exile/Visas both thought that leaving Nihilus on the ship when it blew up would not kill him.
Originally posted by Selenial
And the Vong's weapons would tear through the shielding on a harrower and obliterate it, whilst the Harrowers' own weapons couldn't penetrate their armor.What's your point again??
Heavy armor plating capable of absorbing tremendous amount of firepower. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
On top of such plating, deflector shielding offered additional layer of protection.
Your assumption about inadequacy of firepower of Harrower-class starship is utterly baseless.
My point in this case is that you stop posting bullshit.