Sith and Jedi Most Responsible for the Great Jedi Purge

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Viti had the remnants of the Sith empire to play with, a bazillion trained Force users under his command, and a thousand years to build up a galaxywide army and navy.

Palpatine, hamstrung by political limitations as a Senator and Supreme Chancellor, built up two galaxywide armies and navies in ~10 years with the aid of exactly three Force users. 😐

Viti accomplished a lot, but against Sidious...? This is essentially a dark retelling of the tortoise and the hare... except the tortoise loses in the end. 😬

Emperor Vitiate began with (very) limited resources to reconstitute the ancient Sith Empire, he was forced to spend 20 years in space alone to escape the wrath of the Republic and Jedi and look for a suitable location to lay foundations of a new Sith Empire. Emperor Vitiate didn't had bazillion trained Force-users under his command in the beginning. He almost started from scratch. Given his circumstances, his accomplishments are nothing short of amazing.

20 years off 1400 isn't a lot, my son. Your false god has yet to earn my sympathy; Darth Sidious scoffs at his grotesque failures. uhuh

Yeah, I realize he didn't have a bazillion trained Force users at the beginning of his scheme, but he had the time to cultivate them and still failed.

His political accomplishments are embarrassing next to Sidious when you consider the hilariously vast time disparity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
20 years off 1400 isn't a lot, my son. Your false god has yet to earn my sympathy; Darth Sidious scoffs at his grotesque failures. uhuh

Yeah, I realize he didn't have a bazillion trained Force users at the beginning of his scheme, but he had the time to cultivate them and still failed.

His political accomplishments are embarrassing next to Sidious when you consider the hilariously vast time disparity.

If Emperor Vitiate had vast resources of the Republic at his command then your comparison would have been valid but this isn't the case.

Maybe this analogy might explain the difference:-

- Individual (A) had resources of an entire country at his disposal to further his agenda.

- Individual (B) had been cast out from a country and had to begin from scratch in an Island.

In this comparison, it is obvious that Individual (B) would not get close to Individual (A) in matter of accomplishments even with lot more time.

Therefore, I don't find the comparison valid. IMO, both are highly accomplished Sith Lords in galactic history in their own respective ways.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The others aren't ranked in order and I didn't turn it into a Vittysiddy thing unless you mean the indirect conclusion that Sidious is more important than Viti, which wasn't the point of the message, but is painfully obvious to anyone but LeGenD.

I was just joking.

Though I agree with Legend that Vitiate's era is the peak of sith. Palpatine's reign dominated the galaxy like no other sith but he did so by reconstructing the republic instead of creating a traditional sith empire. This isn't his fault and it doesn't reduce his value but its a fact. It wasn't the site's golden era but his. Darth Bane's philosophy is a good one but it derogated the order.

Before Vitiate, the sith empires were korriban centered and war based cultures that were only there to cause trouble to republic. They were like the bad boys of the galaxy where Vitiate's empire made the sith an alternate state for the galaxy with an efficient intelligence and sophisticated state structure. Palpatine's empire is like the improved and bigger version of it yet it is the galactic empire with 2 sith in it where the older one had thousands of sith. So sith wise, Vitiate's era is better.

Originally posted by Sinious
I was just joking.

Though I agree with Legend that Vitiate's era is the peak of sith. Palpatine's reign dominated the galaxy like no other sith but he did so by reconstructing the republic instead of creating a traditional sith empire. This isn't his fault and it doesn't reduce his value but its a fact. It wasn't the sith's golden era but his. Darth Bane's philosophy is a good one but it derogated the order.

Before Vitiate, the sith empires were korriban centered and war based cultures that were only there to cause trouble to republic. They were like the bad boys of the galaxy where Vitiate's empire made the sith an alternate state for the galaxy with an efficient intelligence and sophisticated state structure. Palpatine's empire is like the improved and bigger version of it yet it is the galactic empire with 2 sith in it where the older one had thousands of sith. So sith wise, Vitiate's era is better.

oops quoted instead of edit

Jedi:

1) Sifo-Dyas. The Purge wouldn't have been possible without the clones and Order 66, and S-D was the knucklehead who let himself get tricked into ordering the clones and allowing the 66 chip to be inserted.

2) Mace Windu. If he hadn't been such a dick to Anakin, the attempt to arrest Palpatine might have been successful. (Although I would wager Palps had a contingency plan for that, so it might not have mattered.)

3) Qui-Gonn Jin. He was responsible for Anakin becoming a Jedi, which Palpatine used a linchpin for his plan.

But 2 caveats. First, Palpatine could have had a different plan without Anakin. Second, Qui Gonn was also the Jedi most responsible for the redemption of the Jedi, so he's got that going for him!

Sith:
I will defer to the many of you here who are more versed in EU Sith lore than I.

PLEASE RETURN THE CONVERSATIONS TO THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND

Vitiate has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, and I do not want this thread turned into another 50 page pissing contest between LeGenD, and some other guy saying Vitiate is not the best. Therefore I'm asking you guys to end this conversation on this particular topic. No LeGenD, this is nothing personal or an attack on you, I merely want the discussion on this thread to return to the intended topic, which does not include Vitiate. If you wish to continue this discussion, I'd advise you to make another thread for it. But do not continue it here.

It wasn't really a debate though a good subject came out of it. I will actually make a thread for this.

And for your topic, again, Sidious is undoubtedly the most responsible person here. Bane's effect was super indirect but still important so I would have him up there too.

Jedi: Farfalla, Sifo-Dyas, Yoda

Sith: Bane, Sidious, Vader 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Selenial
She let Anakin leave for the Chancellors office despite strict instructions from Windu that no one leaves.

Still, if Windu trusted Anakin as Ti did, then Anakin would've likely sided with Windu. No purge then.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yes, I think she could have.

He wouldn't have attacked her, he wasn't unstable until he realised Windu was going to kill palpatine. She also had other Jedi around who would have helped her, the Temple guards etc.

She was also only left behind because they needed a Council member in the temple in case they failed, and Ti was easily the best leader out of the other 3.

She was a better duelist than Kolar, Tin and Fisto.

Indeed, it wouldn't have been too hard to keep Anakin there with words. Shaak just trusted Anakin too much.

Or heck, even better? "I'll come with you, Anakin."

Originally posted by Q99
Still, if Windu trusted Anakin as Ti did, then Anakin would've likely sided with Windu. No purge then.

Indeed, it wouldn't have been too hard to keep Anakin there with words. Shaak just trusted Anakin too much.

Or heck, even better? "I'll come with you, Anakin."

I already put Windu on the list for his foolishness regarding Anakin.

But I doubt Ti could have stopped Anakin from killing Windu if she'd gone with him, she would have passively tried to stop him, got punted, or jumped in the way of Sidious' lightning and get destroyed.

Her staying in the temple was wise, without her, the entire Jedi order would have fallen that day, not most of it.

None of the above, it was that idiot Jar Jar Binks with the deciding vote that did it.

The Jedi Purge and the rise of the Empire are two different but intertwined events. The Grand Plan consisted of wiping out the Jedi and taking over the Galaxy. Because this is purely about the Jedi Purge, I would say that Bane or Vitiate should not be on anyone's list since they had nothing to do with it.

Sith

1. Sidious

This was ultimately his plan. Plagueis did convince Sifo-Dyas to create a clone army, but Sidious was the one who convinced Plageuis that the army should be used by the Republic and the Jedi rather than against them. He was the one who started the Jedi purge by commanding Vader to storm the Jedi temple and commanding the clones to execute Order 66.

2. Vader

Shortly after Anakin killed Mace Windu, Vader stormed the Jedi Temple with the 501 legion and slaughtered countless Jedi. He then spent many years hunting down and killing Jedi.

3. Dooku

Without the Clone Wars, Order 66 may not have been possible. The CIS were like the Communists to the US during the Cold War or how the terrorists are to the US today. Palpatine needed a bad guy that everyone could point at so that he could justify destroying liberty and democracy in the name of security. The CIS was an artificial terror used to spread fear, doubt, and uncertainty. The creation of a galactic army and the use of the clones would not have been possible without the threat that the CIS imposed upon the Republic and the Jedi. TPM showed that the Trade Federation alone was not competent enough to lead an army against the Republic. The CIS needed Dooku.

Jedi

1. Yoda

Against his own judgment, Yoda allowed Kenobi to train Anakin.

Yoda failed to kill Dooku twice. The first failure allowed the Clone Wars to take place. Yoda and the Jedi council found out that Dooku was the one who chose Jango Fett to be the clone template, but (to the best of our knowledge) did not try to act on this information.

The RotS novel states that the Jedi Order grew stagnant while the Sith kept up with the times and changed their ways. Yoda, being 1000 years old and the grandmaster of the Order, could be held responsible for this.

While perhaps not entirely his fault, many of the villains during the Clone Wars are all former Jedi. Barriss Offee, Aurra Sing, Asajj Ventress, Darth Vader, Count Dooku were all once Jedi. Barriss and Dooku in particular both grew disillusioned with the Republic.

If the Jedi had taken a stronger stand against the corruption in the Republic, perhaps Barriss and Dooku would not have betrayed/left the Jedi Order. Perhaps Ahsoka would not have left either.

Asajj, Aurra, and Anakin were all unfortunate cases of not having enough proper guidance. If Anakin felt more comfortable about talking about his relationship with Padme, perhaps the Jedi could have made an exception for him. The scene in RotS where Anakin tries to hint to Yoda that something is going on and Yoda being completely oblivious comes to mind.

Anyways, Jedi Order was doing something wrong and Yoda has quite a bit to take responsibility for.

2. Anakin (sorry, but screw the first post)

Anakin was still a Jedi when he killed Mace Windu. Anakin killing Windu gave Palpatine the whole assassination and "the Jedi are taking over" excuse. This allowed Palpatine to execute Order 66. Anakin also enabled Vader to storm the Jedi Temple and hunt Jedi for decades.

3. Sifo-Dyas

Was convinced by Darth Plagueis to commission the creation of the Clone Army in secret.

Interesting, I did say in the OP that Anakin's betrayal doesn't count for Jedi though.

Isn't Sifo Dyas being manipulated by Plagueis retconned by TCW?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Interesting, I did say in the OP that Anakin's betrayal doesn't count for Jedi though.

I put in parenthesis sorry, but screw the first post. 😄

But even at that point, he wasn't truly a Sith until he knelt before Sidious and accepted his offer.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Isn't Sifo Dyas being manipulated by Plagueis retconned by TCW?

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Here is the order of the events:

Sifo Dyas commissioned the creation of the Clone Army with funding from Plagueis.
Dooku left the Jedi Order and fell to the Dark Side.
Dooku hired the Pykes to shoot down and kill Sifo Dyas.
Dooku then took control of the project.
Dooku hired Jango Fett to be the template.

*Ten years later (or whatever they said in AotC)*

Kenobi goes to Kamino and discovers the clones
Yoda takes control of them and brings some to Geonossis (or however you spell it)
The Republic instates a galactic army and uses the clones as their soldiers

I didn't open this thread at first because I thought it was going to be another thread about how stupid Yoda was, which I absolutely disagree with (Sure, Yoda was blind and could have handled certain situations better as the grand master, but I don't think he was in any way responsible. Just was put on the spot and had too much faith in a prophecy), and didn't feel like getting into a long debate about it, not any time too soon anyway. But I had absolutely no idea people were going to try to diminish Palpatine's role in it. lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But I had absolutely no idea people were going to try to diminish Palpatine's role in it. lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I can assure you that was not my intent in creating this thread. I gave Sidious a spot on my list.

You're a bit too flowery in your praise of Bane for my taste, son. You quietly imply that Bane's efforts were more important than those of his successor, which is simply unacceptable.

His Imperial Majesty will graciously allow you to recant.