The novel says (According to Wolf, I lent my copy to a friend)
'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too."
Which means he wasn't yet trying to "Kill a boy who wouldn't fight"
AKA, He was holding back.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I like how you try to make an excuse for Maul. Obi wan is not even a Jedi at this time while Maul is a dark lord. Point is Obi wan was a match at this point of the fight for the dark sith lord.
Excuses? Fighting 2 opponents is an excuse now? I'd like to see how well TPM Kenobi would have done against say Maul and Ventress LOL.
Obi-Wan not being a Jedi is just semantics considering he was Knighted the same day.
I don't know what point your making here, that in a certain specific set of circumstances after already being shown to be Maul's clear inferior that Kenobi was able to come back in a rage enhanced state and put up a good fight, but still lose.
What are you trying to prove? Are you honestly claiming Kenobi was a greater Jedi at this point than Qui-Gon, who Maul was soundly above.
Explain because your not making any sense, and it seems your just arguing because you have some bias against Maul.
Originally posted by Kotor3
This totally differs from Dooku. In AOTC Anakin nor Obi wan was a match for Dooku in a one on one situation. Not to compare Maul to Dooku but the point it Maul is just not at that level which is probably why Obi wan was a match for him and Luke would be also.
If Obi-Wan was a match for Maul then together with Qui-Gon they should have stomped Maul, and Qui-Gon would still be alive.
But the fact is Maul was actually an equal match for the combined efforts of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the time of TPM.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I can agree with the definition however I do not see that Obi wan was and would have been in that state if Qui Gon was not there. I mean he was also in the same state at the end of the fight and was able to kill Maul.
No it's not the same situation at all as what happened in the end:
1. At the end Obi-Wan was out of Maul's reach, at this point he wasn't. Maul could easily have jumped down after him and sliced up his Lightsaber and Obi-Wan as well.
2. Even if by some miracle Obi-Wan stayed out of reach, he wouldn't have Qui-Gon's lightsaber to call on this time.
There's just no way Obi-Wan was going to last that long, or win the day without Qui-Gon there helping him.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Never disagreed with Maul being the superior fighter. How vast in to be argued. I do not say very much based upon the last battle between the two.
Yeah that's the problem here. You can't just base it on that final fight. You have to look at how the fight went as a whole, and fact is Maul was an equal match for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined. Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's superior at this point, so yes, the difference between Maul and Obi-Wan was quite large.
Not "split second blitz" difference. But a definite win for Maul within 20 seconds on most occasions, in a fight that won't look very even.
Originally posted by Kotor3
This is correct but this is not a discussion about who is more powerful. In Star Wars, just like in real life the most powerful or skilled do not always win. The fight proves that Luke who was not fully trained would have a chance and from my view a good one at beating Maul.
What where are you getting that proof from?
Firstly like I've shown there' a vast difference between Maul and Kenobi in TPM. Kenobi putting up a good right at the end in a rage enhanced state but still losing doesn't change that.
Secondly you have yet to prove ROTJ Luke in on par with TPM Kenobi. Even if he is on par, he loses for the reasons stated.
I agree with you that like in real life, in SW anything can happen in a fight. And that explains perfectly what happened in that last fight between Maul and Kenobi. But fact is Kenobi still lost in the actual combat, then won via a surprise hit later with another Lightsaber (which wouldn't even be around in a true one on one, you can't depend on random Lightsabers to be hanging around).
Originally posted by Kotor3
I hear you, Maul is the superior fighter. I agree. Still, it does not change what you have already agreed to that Obi wan was able to go toe to toe against Maul in his enraged state. This helps to measure if a fighter on a similar level or more would be able to fight or defeat Maul, does it not?Perhaps Maul would or his arrogance would lead to another defeat. Circumstances affect every fight. If an enhanced enraged padawan Obi wan can be a match for Maul I don’t see why Jedi Luke wouldn’t.
Maybe, maybe not. I mean we could say the same about Vader and Obi wan in ANH. I do not know much about Maul during that time so I cannot fully speak on the situation.
[QUOTE=14818280]Originally posted by Kotor3
[B]Well, GL always seem to make comments that make his script seem even more stupid. Why would Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor all feel and say that Luke was ready, skills complete, nothing more to learn.
Did they feel that? Or were they all just manipulating Luke (even the Jedi. Obi-Wan already danced around the truth about his Father).
Vader was just blowing Luke's trumpet, trying to make him arrogant in his skills, whilst Yoda couldn't train him anymore because he was dying, so was letting Luke know he's on his own now but will be fine, and leaving him with some confidence.
The Emperor was just saying Luke's grown to the extent where it will take both Sidious and Vader to turn him (he was manipulating Vader anyway).
There's also the idea that Yoda and Obi-Wan knew Luke couldn't do it alone, but may have still have had faith in Vader being redeemed by his son.
But end of the day the latest thing Lucas has stated is whats canon. Whatever his intention was originally doesn't matter because the Prequels weren't made then so we can't go according to that when discussing the prequels as well.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Luke was not fully trained but neither was Obi wan to the extent of being called a Jedi. So, I based my comments on this:
• Luke power level is higher than Obi wan
• Skill may be comparable
• Was able to push back and beat down Vader who is superior in strength and force to Maul. This he did in an enraged and non-enraged state.So I say Luke definitely has a chance and could win a battle one on one with Maul.
1. Obi-Wan was fully trained as confirmed by Qui-Gon,- "Obi-Wan is ready, there's little more he can learn." He'd been training under Qui-Gon for 10+ years. You can't compare Luke's 4 years of pretty much self training, with just a few lessons to that.
2. Yes Luke has much more natural power than Obi-Wan, but with Obi-Wan's much more extensive training, I doubt Luke was above him. I would be open to the idea that ROTJ Luke vs TPM Kenobi would be a good fight, but I'd personally still lean towards Kenobi.
3. Luke Fighting Vader is hardly proof of anything considering neither of them were going all out or willing to kill or even severely injure the other.
Originally posted by Kotor3
As you can see I do not think very highly of Maul as a Sith Lord.
LOL Yes I can see that. That's why your not thinking about it very Objectively.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Excuses? Fighting 2 opponents is an excuse now? I'd like to see how well TPM Kenobi would have done against say Maul and Ventress LOL.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan not being a Jedi is just semantics considering he was Knighted the same day.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know what point your making here, that in a certain specific set of circumstances after already being shown to be Maul's clear inferior that Kenobi was able to come back in a rage enhanced state and put up a good fight, but still lose.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What are you trying to prove? Are you honestly claiming Kenobi was a greater Jedi at this point than Qui-Gon, who Maul was soundly above. Explain because your not making any sense, and it seems your just arguing because you have some bias against Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Obi-Wan was a match for Maul then together with Qui-Gon they should have stomped Maul, and Qui-Gon would still be alive. But the fact is Maul was actually an equal match for the combined efforts of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the time of TPM.
When Obi wan was giving ground to Anakin in ROTS it wasn’t because he was dominating the fight it was because he was being pushed back. Same for Maul. He was not dominating he was being pushed back and force to give up ground. When circumstances allowed him to recuperate and get a one on one with Qui-Gon he was able to take advantage.
So no I do not see Maul as an equal match for Qui-Gon and Obi wan. I see favorable circumstances for Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No it's not the same situation at all as what happened in the end:1. At the end Obi-Wan was out of Maul's reach, at this point he wasn't. Maul could easily have jumped down after him and sliced up his Lightsaber and Obi-Wan as well.
2. Even if by some miracle Obi-Wan stayed out of reach, he wouldn't have Qui-Gon's lightsaber to call on this time.
There's just no way Obi-Wan was going to last that long, or win the day without Qui-Gon there helping him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah that's the problem here. You can't just base it on that final fight. You have to look at how the fight went as a whole, and fact is Maul was an equal match for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined. Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's superior at this point, so yes, the difference between Maul and Obi-Wan was quite large.
Not "split second blitz" difference. But a definite win for Maul within 20 seconds on most occasions, in a fight that won't look very even.
You are making a lot of assumptions of what could have or may have happen. That is fine you see the fight differently. Maul was being pushed back forcibly by Qui-Gon and Obi wan and then personally by Qui-Gon and then put on defense by Obi wan in and enrage state. That is what I saw.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What where are you getting that proof from?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly like I've shown there' a vast difference between Maul and Kenobi in TPM. Kenobi putting up a good right at the end in a rage enhanced state but still losing doesn't change that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly you have yet to prove ROTJ Luke in on par with TPM Kenobi. Even if he is on par, he loses for the reasons stated.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I agree with you that like in real life, in SW anything can happen in a fight. And that explains perfectly what happened in that last fight between Maul and Kenobi. But fact is Kenobi still lost in the actual combat, then won via a surprise hit later with another Lightsaber (which wouldn't even be around in a true one on one, you can't depend on random Lightsabers to be hanging around).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did they feel that? Or were they all just manipulating Luke (even the Jedi. Obi-Wan already danced around the truth about his Father).Vader was just blowing Luke's trumpet, trying to make him arrogant in his skills, whilst Yoda couldn't train him anymore because he was dying, so was letting Luke know he's on his own now but will be fine, and leaving him with some confidence.
The Emperor was just saying Luke's grown to the extent where it will take both Sidious and Vader to turn him (he was manipulating Vader anyway).
There's also the idea that Yoda and Obi-Wan knew Luke couldn't do it alone, but may have still have had faith in Vader being redeemed by his son.
But end of the day the latest thing Lucas has stated is whats canon. Whatever his intention was originally doesn't matter because the Prequels weren't made then so we can't go according to that when discussing the prequels as well.
As for GL statements, it doesn’t take away from my points. We know Vader was conflicted and Luke was not fully trained but we are so know that Luke was conflicted and did not want to kill Vader. So unless GL says that Vader gave the fight away (which he didn’t) there is other documentation that shows that Luke clearly beats Vader who is Maul superior.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1. Obi-Wan was fully trained as confirmed by Qui-Gon,- "Obi-Wan is ready, there's little more he can learn." He'd been training under Qui-Gon for 10+ years. You can't compare Luke's 4 years of pretty much self training, with just a few lessons to that.2. Yes Luke has much more natural power than Obi-Wan, but with Obi-Wan's much more extensive training, I doubt Luke was above him. I would be open to the idea that ROTJ Luke vs TPM Kenobi would be a good fight, but I'd personally still lean towards Kenobi.
3. Luke Fighting Vader is hardly proof of anything considering neither of them were going all out or willing to kill or even severely injure the other.
LOL Yes I can see that. That's why your not thinking about it very Objectively.
I would say beating an ROTJ Vader at 70 or 80% is much better than beating a 100% TPM Maul.
It seems like Qui-gon was using that break for a respite more than Maul was, Qui-gon was meditating, while Maul was prowling around like a bloodthirsty predator.
And Obi-wan did not stalemate him in a duel at the end. He caught Maul off guard in the first fifteen seconds, then Maul regained his composure, kicked Kenobi, twirled over his blade, and overpowered Kenobi in a bladelock. This overpowering of Kenobi in a bladelock created an opening that could've been exploited in numerous ways, including a lightsaber strike. Even if Kenobi wasn't finished after losing the bladelock, you can tell from his exhausted grunt that he wouldn't have been able to continue for very much longer.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was talking about before he defeated Vader. Even before then, Luke still held somewhat of the upper hand.
Maul is Luke's superior in the force and won't be holding it back as Vader was.
Is he, really? Luke has lifted a sizable automobile whilst levitating both himself and a non-force sensitive, and halted the Millennium Falcon mid-crash. He also has some pretty dope feats as far as Telepathy goes even by this point, as well as Beast Control. And then there's also that quote saying that he was as powerful as Vader--though that should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless, TPM Maul hasn't really displayed too much better.
His Force Augmentation is also hardly lesser than Maul's. He's woven intricate tapestries with the light of his blade, moved faster than the eye can see, and deflected "storms" and "hails" of blaster bolts single handedly. And, you know, his augmented strength was evenly matched with Vader's, which is also a plus.
As for skill, I myself do take the fight with Vader as a very serious indication of his skills.
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."
-Return of the Jedi (Novel)
"But if the son holds any reluctance at the clash... The father does not. Darth Vader presses forward... Strong, skillful, and sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever!"
-Return of the Jedi (Comic)
"On the Darth Star… father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin’s Cloud City… This is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim… And if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him!"
-Return of the Jedi (Comic)
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Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All those quotes show the real problem with Luke, none of his authors know how to be consistent with him. Lucas obviously wanted Luke to be the strongest Jedi ever by the end of RotJ, but then everyone else says otherwise right afterward.
Nope Lucas says he's not had enough training enough to successfully engage Vader at this point.