H/P Doomsday, Pre-Crisis Solomon Grundy, & Pre-Crisis Validus vs Gorr, WBH, & Odin

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Validus is a better Mangog, why did Odin always flee from Mangog or needed help?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Mangog is a brute. Val is a brute. Odin didn't use time stop or other means. Easy.

Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
If you use examples outside of PC that invalidates the parameters of the thread.

Given the DC side I would presume this is more akin to a physical battle rather than allowing Odin all of his abilities. Even if the skyfather can bring everything to bare, how are his battles with Mangog irrelevant?

Odin has the advantage given all his abilities but he is certaintly not dispatching of Validus with ease.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

👆

Originally posted by Stoic
What makes you believe that Pre Crisis Val is more powerful than silver age Mangog in the first place? What if just one of his billion billion beings were as strong as the Thing alone? He'd be a pretty powerful guy right?

Mangog is actually weaker than most of the strongest high herald level beings.
1. He hits Mjolnir back EQUAL to Thor's own power
2. He fails to ko Thor after many hits.
3. He has no feats or showings of strength that shows he is more than 2x as strong as Thor.
4. He is very durable, much more durable in proportion to his strength.

Without any form of BFR or time manipulation, Then HP DD would beat Odin easily.
Odin's blasts would hardly do anything to DD while DD would become more resistant to them and tear Odin to pieces in a matter of moments.

Pre-Crisis Validus was vastly stronger than Superboy, who we all know what he's capable of. Only WBH has shown strength that can compare.

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

You're not factoring in that Mangog is shorter than Validus and therefore weaker! Also those were PC characters! PC!
It's like you don't even read comics.

Although I find this interesting in the midst of a series where Odin tore a universe from Yggdrasil but he was never Pre Crisis so he can't stack up. Also just randomly throwing around Mangog lowers Odin's value as opposed to just putting Mangog's power in perspective. Because Mangog sucked I guess. As proven by randomly saying his name.

Also I'm guessing h1 is lowballing Mangog. Yup. This should be interesting.

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

No Odin would lose against Val. Yes Odin defeated Mangog by cutting his source, something he can't do to Val. This was his onyl chance and he couldn't use anything else because Mangog was physically superior to him. He wasn't able to use time stop or anything else, only this "exploit". He doesn't have this luxury against Val.
Mangog is the hate of a billion billion beings, which is strong, stronger than Thor or Odin but still below the strength of PC beings that can pull a Galaxy worth of Planets and thus were treated like Children by Val.

PC Darkseid was above Odin. As simple as that. So this point is moot. Odin can use his abilitis but they won't work on a superior opponent as he has shown when he had to use the only exploit against Mangog while against other opponents inferior to mangog he fought, Thanos for example. It's out of character to use time stop for Odin, but even if he tries he might fail because he almost never uses it against opponents like Mangog or inferior opponents like Thanos.
So he will blast, try to tp and headbutt. And this is where he will fail.

Simple.

So we know.

Val is stronger than Mangog.
PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Odin can't reverse Val, won't use time stop (or it will fail) and stick to headbutts, blasts and physical means.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
No Odin would lose against Val. Yes Odin defeated Mangog by cutting his source, something he can't do to Val. This was his onyl chance and he couldn't use anything else because Mangog was physically superior to him. He wasn't able to use time stop or anything else, only this "exploit". He doesn't have this luxury against Val.

That doesn't mean he can't overpower Validus. Sun Eater is below Odin, and he's billions of times more powerful than Validus apparently. Same goes to Darkseid. And the fact that Validus has nowhere near the feats to compete with Odin.

Why would Odin use a time stop when he can cut him from his power source instantly?

Though you ignored the part where Mangog was > Ego (who was at Galactus' level back then). Can't see why.

Not to mention he ripped the chalice from Orikal in Thor v2. Same Orilak, who previously in Thor #138-139, was shown to be superior to Odin.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Mangog is the hate of a billion billion beings, which is strong, stronger than Thor or Odin but still below the strength of [B]PC beings that can pull a Galaxy worth of Planets and thus were treated like Children by Val
[/B]

😂 So let's consider this ridiculously high end feat of Superboy's, and pass it off as his average, right?

Ok. Let's look at other showings though.

Here's Superman using all his strength to move a single planet in Superman v1 #66 (which was the pre-crisis time period where his feats started to manifest, and obviously he's equal to SA Superboy since he's the same being):

http://i.imgur.com/nmtyEKi.jpg?1

"with all the power of his being..."

Here's the same thing happening in Superman v1 #72.

http://i.imgur.com/SQaXZ2q.jpg

"using his muscles to the utmost"

Same thing in Superman v1 #220:

http://i.imgur.com/vOP1Crg.jpg

He was continuously pushing against the Earth with all his strength.

And all those scans are pre-depowerment.

That's enough for this part. So you really think pulling a galaxy worth of planets is some sort of average showing?

Unto the 2nd part though. Superboy's title where he moved those planets. Let's see the other side of showings.

Same Superboy couldn't penetrate a random ship protected by a forcefield though (in Superboy #167).

Same Superboy who got owned by Persuader (who's a high herald, low trans if you want to stretch it) in Superboy #198

Same Superboy who got owned by a goddamn fish monster in Superboy #202

Same Superboy who was inferior to Mighto in strength (who iirc needed some sort of chemical device to blow up the Earth).

Same Superboy who gets overpowered by Ultra-Boy in #205.

Same Superboy who gets owned by Star Boy merged with a phantom in #215.

Etc...

Btw, Superboy is also susceptible to anyone who can mentally control matter (Mind over Matter). Jonathan disguised as Mental emperor was completely immune to his powers in Superboy #111.

Anyway, now that we've established the PC character's average.

You also ignored this part though:

--------------------------------------

Here's Superboy/Mon-el/Ultra-Boy KOing Validus in Superboy #231 though:

http://i.imgur.com/cefOwS8.jpg?1

Same comic Colossal Boy was doing fine against Validus. And he's not on Superboy's level.

--------------------------------------

As for Mon-El and Ultra-Boy (the two other legionnaires who are on Superboy's level, although Ultra-Boy has a disadvantage that he can only use one power at a time), they get KOed by a negasphere that was going to destroy the Earth alone in Superboy #244:

http://i.imgur.com/CbkPSJZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fr0T7sl.jpg

So you'll have to forgive me when Validus handling Mon-El, Validus, and Superboy, one at a time is not on Odin's level.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

PC Darkseid was above Odin. As simple as that. So this point is moot. Odin can use his abilitis but they won't work on a superior opponent as he has shown when he had to use the only exploit against Mangog while against other opponents inferior to mangog he fought, Thanos for example. It's out of character to use time stop for Odin, but even if he tries he might fail because he almost never uses it against opponents like Mangog or inferior opponents like Thanos.
So he will blast, try to tp and headbutt. And this is where he will fail.

"As simple as that". Your reasoning is pretty convincing.

PC Darkseid is above Odin though? And what possible showings does he have that puts him anywhere near Odin? BFRing Infinity Man (a trans level character) and sealing him in another dimension? Because that's the best feat Darkseid has pre crisis wise.

Talk about telepathy though. Let's see a direct comparison between them. The whole point of New Gods v1 (at least the first part of it) and Forever People v1 was Darkseid coming to Earth to seek the ALE from the minds of Earth's people (same story was featured in post-crisis comics too btw). Which he did after great effort (and not through mindraping everyone, he actually used machines to do that, to extract the ALE) Odin on the other hand, has literally mindraped all of the people on Earth instantly. Multiple times at that. Here's one example from JIM #104:

http://i.imgur.com/zZV1EDS.jpg

PC Darkseid with the full power of the ALE (which was confirmed to grant him universal level power) was literally defeated by an extremely weakened Highfather (who was near powerless since he was cut from the source in New Gods v1 #19) and Orion then rebounded only to get vaporized by Dessad's cannon. in Adventure Comics #460

http://i.imgur.com/3l8qRbG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CUJrvjW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ARjVYt5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DcsQfnM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Bfft3dH.jpg

He then resurfaced in a JLA arc, and got owned pretty badly by Firestorm.

Id have to recheck the Hunger Dogs, but from what i remember Darkseid was implied not to be able to survive planetary destruction in that comic.

With that saide...Hmm....do you see any advantage which PC Darkseid has over Odin? Because i sure don't.

It's your turn now to make an argument why PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Simple.

So we know.

Val is stronger than Mangog.
PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Odin can't reverse Val, won't use time stop (or it will fail) and stick to headbutts, blasts and physical means.

Yeah. By ignoring what Mangog was supposed to represent, and by applying the highest of high showings to superboy (and applying them to Ultra-Boy and Mon-el in turn) then saying those are the same beings who've been handled by Validus. Even though the exact same opposite happened as well.

And ignoring the fact that those 3 never operated on this level on average. Especially Ultra-Boy.

I explained all this in detail but this is the summary of it.

And you've given literally no reason at all why Darkseid is superior than Odin other than you simply think so. Evidence shows otherwise though.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You're not factoring in that Mangog is shorter than Validus and therefore weaker! Also those were PC characters! PC!
It's like you don't even read comics.

Although I find this interesting in the midst of a series where Odin tore a universe from Yggdrasil but he was never Pre Crisis so he can't stack up. Also just randomly throwing around Mangog lowers Odin's value as opposed to just putting Mangog's power in perspective. Because Mangog sucked I guess. As proven by randomly saying his name.

Also I'm guessing h1 is lowballing Mangog. Yup. This should be interesting.

Yeah, 😂 Hilarious stuff.

Let's also not forget that Mangog forcibly ripped the chalice from Orikal in thor v2. And that was the same Orikal who was shown to be superior to Odin in Thor #138-139 (His power literally allowed the trolls to nullify Odin's power, draining his sceptre, nullified his enchantment on the hammer, etc..). And even before that story Odin had feats like drawing the electro magnetic particles of all the universe (in JiM #99), and was shown to be superior to Surtur who was stated to be a galaxy buster (in JiM #104).

Along with Mangog a greater threat than Ego supposedly.

So im not even sure what's the problem with Mangog giving Odin any sort of trouble.

I mean, Odin does have low showings; but referencing Mangog as a low showing? ....

^Operator, so you are twisting facts again. First you take a early Superman and compare his "low" feats to another character "Superboy" to lowball and disqualify the Galaxy feat? Compare Superman blowing a Galaxy away and you have the PC Average. Show m the scan after the attack of the 3 too see if Val is defeated, I can't trust you.

PC Highfather like PC Darkseid is more powerful than Odin.

So we have still Mangog, whome odin won't face directly because he is afraid and uses a weakness exploit, who has billion billion beings strength against someone who stomps beings that have still the strength to move a galaxy worth of planets.

Try agin. I will look at the rest of you twisted post later.^^

PC Supes ain't all that.

Team 2 mostly because of Odins versatility

I would think Gorr's weapon could prove dangerous in this battle.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Operator, so you are twisting facts again. First you take a early Superman and compare his "low" feats to another character "Superboy" to lowball and disqualify the Galaxy feat?

What? you do know that pre-Crisis Superboy and Superman are the same character, right? Superboy is just young Superman. That's basic stuff anyone should know.

In case you try some other twisted excuse, let's just end it here. In Superboy v1 #47, Superman and Superboy meet and they are regarded as equals:

http://i.imgur.com/uoAl1wc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yIhg9i0.jpg

There's more proof if you want.

Im not trying to disqualify anything. Im saying that it's not his average, which is definitely true. Anyone who actually reads pre-crisis comics would know this.

Also, i wasn't even using just Superman, i also referenced some of Superboy's showings, in his own title (his galaxy worth of planets pushing feat happened in Superboy #140, and i referenced scenes from that same title to help you understand that it's not his average).

But i can understand why you ignored that. You have no counter, so you resort to saying that im twisting shit.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Compare Superman blowing a Galaxy away and you have the PC Average.

Talk about twisting things.

You realize that Superman blew a solar system not a galaxy in Superman #218 right? Big difference, cause there's billions of solar systems inside a single galaxy.

Yeah, reference 2 high showings and you have the average.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Show m the scan after the attack of the 3 too see if Val is defeated, I can't trust you.

Im curious as to what exactly made you distrust me. Cause from where i stand, you refuted absolutely nothing. Nothing at all.

And do you really think i would give issue # if i was deliberately misinterpreting the scene??

But sure thing, here's the two consecutive scans. In the 2nd one we see Validus contained in Inertron:

http://i.imgur.com/PWswJR6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EO52CFr.jpg

Go check the comic yourself if you want. It's from Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #231.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

PC Highfather like PC Darkseid is more powerful than Odin.

Except for the 2 little details you missed.

1) Darkseid had the ALE with him which is said to be able to crush the cosmos

2) Highfather was nearly powerless since he was cut off from the source in New Gods #19.

I already mentioned that and you keep ignoring it.

And i already said why Darkseid is well below Odin, and asked you to provide your own reasons, and i got nothing as expected. So basically your argument is baseless.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
So we have still Mangog, whome odin won't face directly because he is afraid and uses a weakness exploit, who has billion billion beings strength against someone who stomps beings that have still the strength to move a galaxy worth of planets.

It's not weakness exploitation. Odin was the one who created Mangog to begin with. Just like he created him, he can un-create him by freeing the race.

Ultra-Boy, Mon-El nor Superboy can do this sort of feat on average. Reading comics will help you understand that.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You're not factoring in that Mangog is shorter than Validus and therefore weaker! Also those were PC characters! PC!
It's like you don't even read comics.

Although I find this interesting in the midst of a series where Odin tore a universe from Yggdrasil but he was never Pre Crisis so he can't stack up. Also just randomly throwing around Mangog lowers Odin's value as opposed to just putting Mangog's power in perspective. Because Mangog sucked I guess. As proven by randomly saying his name.

Also I'm guessing h1 is lowballing Mangog. Yup. This should be interesting.

Mangog is weaker because he is shown to be. Thor takes many blows without being koed, hit's Mjolnir back EQUAL to the strength of Thor, etc. Comics>>>>>>>>>>>opinions.
Mangog has no feats to show that he has uber strength (beyond 2x that of Thor), not one. There is no lowballing going on when I will accept his highest strength feat as the basis of his strength in a forum match. So that's that.

Odin tearing a universe in half? Scans.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PC Supes ain't all that.

THE HOUSE OF EL DOES NOT FIND THIS AMUSING!

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, 😂 Hilarious stuff.

Lets forget the hilarity and deal with the canon.

It will be easier to take this approach.

What in your opinion is Superboy's average level of power?

What multiple of power is Validus operating at in reference to Superboy?

We can proceed from there.

Originally posted by operator616
That doesn't mean he can't overpower Validus. Sun Eater is below Odin, and he's billions of times more powerful than Validus apparently. Same goes to Darkseid. And the fact that Validus has nowhere near the feats to compete with Odin.

Why would Odin use a time stop when he can cut him from his power source instantly?

Though you ignored the part where Mangog was > Ego (who was at Galactus' level back then). Can't see why.

Not to mention he ripped the chalice from Orikal in Thor v2. Same Orilak, who previously in Thor #138-139, was shown to be superior to Odin.

😂 So let's consider this ridiculously high end feat of Superboy's, and pass it off as his average, right?

Ok. Let's look at other showings though.

Here's Superman using all his strength to move a single planet in Superman v1 #66 (which was the pre-crisis time period where his feats started to manifest, and obviously he's equal to SA Superboy since he's the same being):

http://i.imgur.com/nmtyEKi.jpg?1

"with all the power of his being..."

Here's the same thing happening in Superman v1 #72.

http://i.imgur.com/SQaXZ2q.jpg

"using his muscles to the utmost"

Same thing in Superman v1 #220:

http://i.imgur.com/vOP1Crg.jpg

He was continuously pushing against the Earth with all his strength.

And all those scans are pre-depowerment.

That's enough for this part. So you really think pulling a galaxy worth of planets is some sort of average showing?

Unto the 2nd part though. Superboy's title where he moved those planets. Let's see the other side of showings.

Same Superboy couldn't penetrate a random ship protected by a forcefield though (in Superboy #167).

Same Superboy who got owned by Persuader (who's a high herald, low trans if you want to stretch it) in Superboy #198

Same Superboy who got owned by a goddamn fish monster in Superboy #202

Same Superboy who was inferior to Mighto in strength (who iirc needed some sort of chemical device to blow up the Earth).

Same Superboy who gets overpowered by Ultra-Boy in #205.

Same Superboy who gets owned by Star Boy merged with a phantom in #215.

Etc...

Btw, Superboy is also susceptible to anyone who can mentally control matter (Mind over Matter). Jonathan disguised as Mental emperor was completely immune to his powers in Superboy #111.

Anyway, now that we've established the PC character's average.

You also ignored this part though:

--------------------------------------

Here's Superboy/Mon-el/Ultra-Boy KOing Validus in Superboy #231 though:

http://i.imgur.com/cefOwS8.jpg?1

Same comic Colossal Boy was doing fine against Validus. And he's not on Superboy's level.

--------------------------------------

As for Mon-El and Ultra-Boy (the two other legionnaires who are on Superboy's level, although Ultra-Boy has a disadvantage that he can only use one power at a time), they get KOed by a negasphere that was going to destroy the Earth alone in Superboy #244:

http://i.imgur.com/CbkPSJZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fr0T7sl.jpg

So you'll have to forgive me when Validus handling Mon-El, Validus, and Superboy, one at a time is not on Odin's level.

"As simple as that". Your reasoning is pretty convincing.

PC Darkseid is above Odin though? And what possible showings does he have that puts him anywhere near Odin? BFRing Infinity Man (a trans level character) and sealing him in another dimension? Because that's the best feat Darkseid has pre crisis wise.

Talk about telepathy though. Let's see a direct comparison between them. The whole point of New Gods v1 (at least the first part of it) and Forever People v1 was Darkseid coming to Earth to seek the ALE from the minds of Earth's people (same story was featured in post-crisis comics too btw). Which he did after great effort (and not through mindraping everyone, he actually used machines to do that, to extract the ALE) Odin on the other hand, has literally mindraped all of the people on Earth instantly. Multiple times at that. Here's one example from JIM #104:

http://i.imgur.com/zZV1EDS.jpg

PC Darkseid with the full power of the ALE (which was confirmed to grant him universal level power) was literally defeated by an extremely weakened Highfather (who was near powerless since he was cut from the source in New Gods v1 #19) and Orion then rebounded only to get vaporized by Dessad's cannon. in Adventure Comics #460

http://i.imgur.com/3l8qRbG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CUJrvjW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ARjVYt5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DcsQfnM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Bfft3dH.jpg

He then resurfaced in a JLA arc, and got owned pretty badly by Firestorm.

Id have to recheck the Hunger Dogs, but from what i remember Darkseid was implied not to be able to survive planetary destruction in that comic.

With that saide...Hmm....do you see any advantage which PC Darkseid has over Odin? Because i sure don't.

It's your turn now to make an argument why PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Yeah. By ignoring what Mangog was supposed to represent, and by applying the highest of high showings to superboy (and applying them to Ultra-Boy and Mon-el in turn) then saying those are the same beings who've been handled by Validus. Even though the exact same opposite happened as well.

And ignoring the fact that those 3 never operated on this level on average. Especially Ultra-Boy.

I explained all this in detail but this is the summary of it.

And you've given literally no reason at all why Darkseid is superior than Odin other than you simply think so. Evidence shows otherwise though.

🙂

SA Odin >/= PC Darkseid>> PC Vaildus.

PC Darkseid did devolve PC Vaidus, and anybody that knows comics believes that SA Odin and PC Darkseid as peers well above PC Vaildus

Operator is in here destroying. He is literally one of the only individuals on this site that I take the time to read his long posts. Keep it going operator. By the way, team 2 stomps.

without even skimming through operator's posts i can tell you, with confidence, that team 2 wins. 🙂