Sentry vs Starbrand

Originally posted by bbrem123
That version of MM could still destroy high herald level heroes in an instant.

So him being Multiversal doesn't really mean much here.

Yes it does. Mr Master is basically saying if MM was in the right frame of mind and didn't want to lose he would've F Sentry up something nasty and that's a fact; as where DA MM was mid trans at best as where normal MM is above Elder Gods and Sky Fathers in power, and the real MM or Evil MM would have scatter Sentry atoms across the multiverse with a thought.

Terrax Sentry, MM Sentry, or Genis Sentry wins.
Any other Sentry loses.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Yes it does. Mr Master is basically saying if MM was in the right frame of mind and didn't want to lose he would've F Sentry up something nasty and that's a fact; as where DA MM was mid trans at best as where normal MM is above Elder Gods and Sky Fathers in power, and the real MM or Evil MM would have scatter Sentry atoms across the multiverse with a thought.

the MM shown in DA was able to destroy high heralds with ease.

Sentry beat MM at his own game. Like it or not. I could give a sh*t. 👆

Originally posted by the Darkone

Yes it does. Mr Master is basically saying if MM was in the right frame of mind and didn't want to lose he would've F Sentry up something nasty and that's a fact; as where DA MM was mid trans at best as where normal MM is above Elder Gods and Sky Fathers in power, and the real MM or Evil MM would have scatter Sentry atoms across the multiverse with a thought.

Originally posted by bbrem123

the MM shown in DA was able to destroy high heralds with ease.

Whoopee. It just happens to be what he controls: uhh, Molecules.

Grant it, Owen needed to be at close range, but meh.

Originally posted by bbrem123

Sentry beat MM at his own game.

1) Owen severely de-powered himself, cause he wasn't even a global power, he was only able to control the molecules around him. (localized)

2) Owen was mentally unstable (depressed-insecure-delusional)

3) Owen subconsciously wanted to lose. (masochist-like)

Now, take away those plot hinderances and Owen curbstomps Sentry or Void or combined every time.

Oh Mr. Master...

The plot disagrees with you.
The dialogue disagrees with you.
And even the writer of that arc Brian Michael Bendis disagrees with you (he said that Molecule Man wasn't depowered, when someone asked me on one of these Tumblr-like sites).

But yeah, have fun repeating your made up nonsense, you liar.

Originally posted by Mr Master
👆

Big freakin deal. He dispersed his molecules.

Whoopee. It just happens to be what he controls: uhh, Molecules.

Grant it, Owen needed to be at close range, but meh.

Dark Reign Owen had several stipulations working against him:

1) Owen severely de-powered himself, cause he wasn't even a global power, he was only able to control the molecules around him. (localized)

2) Owen was mentally unstable (depressed-insecure-delusional)

3) Owen subconsciously wanted to lose. (masochist-like)

Now, take away those plot hinderances and Owen curbstomps Sentry or Void or combined every time.

I recall how Owen was during the Secret Wars series, and i agree with you that he has mental issues much like Sentry, but perhaps not as severe. Can you prove that he was unstable? Are there any citations that would lead you to believe that he was? It seems A OK for one guy to be unable to operate at peak due to mental hindrances without so much as a writers citation, but when it seems to be said of another you're called names. I'd be interested to see what you can dig up on Owen's Siege performance, because I was pretty shocked at the outcome myself.

Originally posted by bbrem123
the MM shown in DA was able to destroy high heralds with ease.

Originally posted by Enzeru
Oh Mr. Master...

The plot disagrees with you.
The dialogue disagrees with you.
And even the writer of that arc Brian Michael Bendis disagrees with you (he said that Molecule Man wasn't depowered, when someone asked me on one of these Tumblr-like sites).

But yeah, have fun repeating your made up nonsense, you liar.

MM has gone through a sh|tton of incarnations during his 30+ years as a character.

Originally, he couldn't affect organic molecules, or warp space/time and he thought he needed his "wand" to focus his powers.

Then he "died" and recreated his body. He still couldn't affect organic molecules or warp space/time but he found he didn't need his wand at all (this was the version that stomped Thor/Surfer/IM/Cap America).

Then during Secret Wars I/II, Beyondoom unlocked his true potential and he became a powerhouse. He found out he COULD affect organic molecules as well as warp space/time. This version had massive multiversal level feats.

Then Beyonder and Owen merged to become a Cube and Owen was ejected the instant before the Cube became Kosmos. Owen was sent to Earth powerless. It turns out he hid a SLIVER of his power inside Marsha before he merged with Beyonder to form Kosmos. He reclaims that power and states that he's right back to his old power levels : can't affect organic molecules, can't warp space/time. This is the version that lost to Klaw and Aaron the Rogue Watcher.

Then later still, Owen breaks his mental blocks and become Molecule Man unleashed and rips Beyonder from Kosmos and challenges him to a fight. They operate on TRANS MULTIVERSAL levels and wreck havoc across the omniverse. The fight ends with Owen winning but taking pity on Kubik/Kosmos and allows Beyonder to live. Owen powers down and promises never to behave like that again.

His next (and last) appearance is vs Sentry and the Avengers. This is where he appears to be suffering from mental issues (again) and it's obvious because he's having entire conversations with figments of his imagination. This is the version that Sentry beat. The powered down version of MM. Still an impressive feat for Sentry but MM was nowhere NEAR his peak because of his mental issues.

All of this is tangential anyway. That version of Sentry would annihilate Starbrand.

and why does this mental instability not fly when it comes to Sentry?

Originally posted by Stoic

Can you prove that he was unstable? Are there any citations that would lead you to believe that he was? It seems A OK for one guy to be unable to operate at peak due to mental hindrances without so much as a writers citation, but when it seems to be said of another you're called names. I'd be interested to see what you can dig up on Owen's Siege performance, because I was pretty shocked at the outcome myself.

There was a thread that addresses this very discussion.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=586506&pagenumber=8 (the war starts here)

The general consensus was already that Sentry defeated the severely weakened & stipulated Owen,
but posters like Operator616, Galan, Myself and others truly drilled it down with overwhelming On Panel proof.

I think that troll was there too, ... tried to insult Galan got owned lovely for it.

Enzeru, usually i agree with your posts. But are you defending here that Sentry has more raw power than a universal + being ?

Do you think Sentry can beat a group of Skyfathers with ease ?

I think Enzeru's point (and others, myself included) is that the current Starbrand hasn't actually shown that he's universal+ level yet, or capable of defeating a group of Skyfathers with ease. That's all.

Based on hype? Sure. Feats? Ermm....

yea i dont get where all this universal/multiversal talk is coming from.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think Enzeru's point (and others, myself included) is that the current Starbrand hasn't actually shown that he's universal+ level yet, or capable of defeating a group of Skyfathers with ease. That's all.

Based on hype? Sure. Feats? Ermm....

I agree with that. I dont think this Starbrand is universal or even skyfather level. I think Sentry wins.

My question is because Enzeru says the MM that Sentry beat was not depowered or not with full capacity, that is equal to a universal being at least.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'd be interested to see what you can dig up on Owen's Siege performance, because I was pretty shocked at the outcome myself.

He has already done it. He has posted his assumptions on the events in that, even though the comics themselves

Originally posted by Mr Master
1) Owen severely de-powered himself, cause he wasn't even a global power, he was only able to control the molecules around him. (localized)

That's his first assumption and he ignores the fact that Molecule Man has stated multiple times in the comics that he only wanted to be left alone in his home city and was defending it against the intruders, which entered it.

Molecule Man's power was not limited to that small city. He was using his power only to protect it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
2) Owen was mentally unstable (depressed-insecure-delusional)

Molecule Man was a mentally unstable character throughout his entire career. Even before he got his infinite power he was a insecure, shy and fearful.

Originally posted by Mr Master
3) Owen subconsciously wanted to lose. (masochist-like)

This is the most pesky statement.

Molecule Man created illusions of few powerful Marvel characters around him. They were talking all kind of weird stuff to him. Like for example one illusion told him that what Victoria Hand was telling him made sense, while another illusion told him that she was lying and that he should kill her.
One illusion said that Molecule Man only wanted to be left alone, while one illusion said that he wants to be found and lose the fight.

AND THEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE LIKE MR. MASTER SEEING THAT ONE STATEMENT OF AN ILLUSION, WHICH IS BASICALLY ONLY MOLECULE MAN'S MIND PLAYING TRICKS ON HIM ...
... and then picking that one statement. All the other stuff the illusions said and Molecule Man denied or refused to follow become totally unimportant for someone like Mr. Master and that one statement, that says that he wants to lose becomes everything! Even though Molecule Man himself denied that over and over and over again.

Come on guys, I can't be the only one, who sees the total madness that is being discussed here!

Molecule Man didn't want to die in that fight. He was fighting until his last breath. He simply got overpowered.
Now if Molecule Man kept on screaming "Kill me, Kill me, I want to die", the way Robert Reynolds did it in the end of the Siege on Asgard, we would have a discussion here, but Molecule Man straight up lost.

Originally posted by bbrem123
and why does this mental instability not fly when it comes to Sentry?

Because it has been established that the Sentry's power level depends on his mental state. That was stated in his bio's and was visible throughout his career.

When it comes to Molecule Man he was never visibly affected by mental instability and Bendis also confirmed that Molecule Man was not depowered (don't ask for a screenshot of this - I've been looking for it, but can't find it anymore).

However, there was something, which I will tackle down below.

Originally posted by zopzop
This is where he appears to be suffering from mental issues (again) and it's obvious because he's having entire conversations with figments of his imagination. This is the version that Sentry beat. The powered down version of MM. Still an impressive feat for Sentry but MM was nowhere NEAR his peak because of his mental issues.

I know all of that what you've written, but you're making one mistake. You're confusing mental blocks for mental issues.
Molecule Man got his mental blocks removed, which unleashed his abilities. The same happened for Superman. With Superman having mental blocks in the past, you wouldn't say that he had mental issues.

When it comes to Molecule Man there was only one instance where mental instability played a role and that happened off-panel... Do you know what else happened off-panel? Sentry stalemating Galactus.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2920995-namw_2005__weak_when_empowered.jpg

That's that off-panel showing. Molecule Man got imprisoned, because he was unstable and his power level decreased. But after he broke out, no one knew about his current power levels and goals. The next time we saw him he was in his hometown, wanted to be left alone and attacked the intruders.

More in the follow-up:

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Enzeru, usually i agree with your posts. But are you defending here that Sentry has more raw power than a universal + being ?

No one in his right mindset should even come up with the idea to make arguments for Sentry being as powerful as post-retcon Molecule Man at his best, who was affecting multiple dimensions and timelines. Whoever says that, deserves a slap in the face.

But with that being said, no one in his right mindset should reduce that version of the Molecule Man to a city-wide scale, because he has proven to be more capable. Such arguments are straight up false claims and the people, who come up with them also deserve a slap in the face, simply because Molecule Man himself only focused on that city. He didn't want to draw any attention outside of it. The comic itself shows it.
On top of that he destroyed a +high herald (Sentry) multiple times, someone with a city-sized anything can't do.

The argument in the entire story is that the Sentry overpowered a still very capable Molecule Man, who had enough control over matter to rip +high heralds in pieces and that feat is being used to establish Sentry's molecule manipulation as hold-dat-worthy.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Do you think Sentry can beat a group of Skyfathers with ease ?

No, of course not.
I've stated multiple times that Sentry gets owned by any Skyfather by default.

I've also stated multiple times that Sentry gets owned by powerful reality warpers, because his track record against reality warping is very bad (HoM Scarlet Witch, Absorbing Man with reality warping powers, Norn stones).

I've also stated that Sentry might lose in a fight against Blue Marvel, who has Anti-Matter as his power source and even a stable Sentry thinks that Anti-Matter is weakening him and draining his powers.

I've also stated that Sentry might lose to Superman, if he goes into his default mode and uses solar radiation to attack Superman (which would sun-dip Superman) instead of straight up molcule manipulation.

I can continue with people that can beat the Sentry. I don't give a **** if Sentry loses a fight, or wins it. I'm just here to explain the lore of the character and what was showcased throughout his career.

However, at the same time I truly believe that a stable Sentry / Void Sentry / Death Seed Sentry are on a High Trans Level and don't struggle with any high heralds or even Trans Level characters like Thanos and co and I would argue in such battles to defend them. For example I think that Sentry has the versatility and also a massive speed advantage, which would grant him the victory in a fight against Thanos.

But then you get a bunch of super-aggressive fanboys of characters like Thanos, Hulk and so on, who refuse to even take such a possibility into consideration and I end up being the bad guy.
I, who focuses more on context of everything than anyone else on this board, or actually any board for that matter.

You get people like Mr. Master, who straight up come up with stupid shit and stick to it Carver-style for so long, until I simply lose interest and stop arguing, because I feel my brain cells dying off one by one, when engaging in such discussions.

/RANT OVER!

Originally posted by Enzeru

The argument in the entire story is that the Sentry overpowered a still very capable Molecule Man, who had enough control over matter to rip +high heralds in pieces and that feat is being used to establish Sentry's molecule manipulation as hold-dat-worthy.

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is denying this. The MM Sentry beat was MORE powerful than the version that owned Thor/Surfer/IM/Captain America (since that version couldn't even affect organic molecules but the Dark Avengers MM could). Sentry beat a Trans level being.

The way I like to look at feats is by looking at the best... for example - the best one of Sentry's opponents could do and how Sentry did compared to that:

Doctor Doom's force fields... They absorbed the attacks of Hulk and Thor in the past, as well the punch of an empowered Captain Britain, which sent Doom flying across the limbo or something like that.
Doctor Doom's fields protected him from Silver Surfer's attacks, Galactus physical attack and even Thanos, who attacked with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet...

And what Sentry did was to walk twice through these shields. One time they were at their full capacity and Sentry breached them like they were nothing. The other time they didn't have much power left, but prior to that Sentry physically fought through the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak.

Judging by what he has done to Doctor Doom's force fields and what they were capable of protecting Doom against, one could say that even these two showings were unbelievable PIS for the Sentry, but it happened.
They way I view all of that is by not lowballing Doctor Doom, but by taking all of his great showings into consideration.

The same applies for Molecule Man.
Some people try to lowball the living **** out of the entire scenario, while I look at what he has done. And what he did was to rip the Sentry apart. Did it happen on a molecular level? The first two times it did and even though Molecule Man's powers are based on molecule manipulation alone ... the third time Molecule Man did it we saw the Sentry literally getting ripped apart.

Sentry, who had great durability feats as well like dealing with WW Hulk's damage output, being in the centre of planet busting attacks in his fights against Collective and Photon, engaging the Void in physical battles and more.

And Molecule Man went through all that durability, density, invulnerability... whatever. And ripped him apart. If he can do it to the Sentry, he can do it to Thor as well and Thor won't recover from that.
Sentry recovered from that and overwhelmed Molecule Man with sheer power. Not finesse, but power. He out-moleculed someone, who had enough control over molecules to pass the durability of +high heralds.

Originally posted by Enzeru
And Molecule Man went through all that durability, density, invulnerability... whatever. And ripped him apart. If he can do it to the Sentry, he can do it to Thor as well and Thor won't recover from that.
Sentry recovered from that and overwhelmed Molecule Man with sheer power. Not finesse, but power. He out-moleculed someone, who had enough control over molecules to pass the durability of +high heralds.

Originally posted by Enzeru

Oh Mr. Master...

have fun repeating your made up nonsense,

you liar.

Originally posted by Enzeru

MR. MASTER blah, bah, blah ... I just want his schlong

someone like Mr. Master

You get people like Mr. Master, who straight up come up with stupid shit

Originally posted by Enzeru
The way I like to look at feats is by looking at the best... for example - the best one of Sentry's opponents could do and how Sentry did compared to that:

Doctor Doom's force fields... They absorbed the attacks of Hulk and Thor in the past, as well the punch of an empowered Captain Britain, which sent Doom flying across the limbo or something like that.
Doctor Doom's fields protected him from Silver Surfer's attacks, Galactus physical attack and even Thanos, who attacked with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet...

And what Sentry did was to walk twice through these shields. One time they were at their full capacity and Sentry breached them like they were nothing. The other time they didn't have much power left, but prior to that Sentry physically fought through the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak.

Judging by what he has done to Doctor Doom's force fields and what they were capable of protecting Doom against, one could say that even these two showings were unbelievable PIS for the Sentry, but it happened.
They way I view all of that is by not lowballing Doctor Doom, but by taking all of his great showings into consideration.

The same applies for Molecule Man.
Some people try to lowball the living **** out of the entire scenario, while I look at what he has done. And what he did was to rip the Sentry apart. Did it happen on a molecular level? The first two times it did and even though Molecule Man's powers are based on molecule manipulation alone ... the third time Molecule Man did it we saw the Sentry literally getting ripped apart.

Sentry, who had great durability feats as well like dealing with WW Hulk's damage output, being in the centre of planet busting attacks in his fights against Collective and Photon, engaging the Void in physical battles and more.

And Molecule Man went through all that durability, density, invulnerability... whatever. And ripped him apart. If he can do it to the Sentry, he can do it to Thor as well and Thor won't recover from that.
Sentry recovered from that and overwhelmed Molecule Man with sheer power. Not finesse, but power. He out-moleculed someone, who had enough control over molecules to pass the durability of +high heralds.