Originally posted by MF DELPH
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2988310/How-smile-reveals-man-s-SEXIST-Beliefs-women-betrayed-facial-expressions-claims-study.htmlBumping to add this link to an article regarding a study that claims "chivalry" may in fact be sexist.
According to that article "hostile sexists" enjoy topless calendars. What a load of horseshit.
Originally posted by Quincy
I wouldn't say Chivalry is sexist as much as it is just being nice.If I offer to help an old woman put her groceries away I don't think I'm being mean as to say "YOU CANT DO THIS WITHOUT DYING PROBABLY."
It's just helpful. Giving a woman your seat or opening the door is just being courteous. I'd do the same for a guy but I doubt anyone would call that "chivalrous."
I mean, would someone say "Women and Children first" is sexist?
Yes, women and children first is sexist.
The thing is chivalry is not just opening doors for women. It's the expectation in society that men should open doors for women (based on them being weaker and less capable)...and that is sexist. If you use chivalry to mean courteous, and do not discriminate based on gender, then that's fine, but it's not really what chivalry means.
Originally posted by Robtard
Not sure if holding the door for someone is "infantilizing" them.
Being told by society that people have to look out for you because you can't look out for yourself is infantilising.
Originally posted by Astner
So it's sexist of me to expect a grown woman to be able to reject an offer she's uncomfortable with?
Probably, though that's not what I said.
If we are going off on that tangent though, I would say it is sexist of you to expect it, because, once again, you are disregarding the circumstances, i.e. that women are taught not to speak up about their wishes as well as that women have good reasons to not be frank or confrontational with men.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I feel like you are disregarding my point.Being courteous does not mean you think that the person is a child. Chivalry as it exists in our society does infantilize women.
Fair enough. But you're essentially saying that a person is not sexist for being polite and holding a door open, but the act itself is sexist.
Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough. But you're essentially saying that a person is not sexist for being polite and holding a door open, but the act itself is sexist.
Yes, that is exactly what I said here:
Originally posted by Bardock42
While I think chivalry is sexist, I don't necessarily think that means that people that are chivalrous are sexist. Definitely not consciously usually. But it still contributes to and is caused by sexist gender roles.I think people who are not sexist at all are usually not what we call chivalrous, but courteous to everyone.
Chivalry as a concept is sexist, and there are many men that are sexist that are chivalrous. But being courteous to people is not sexist itself, it doesn't exist in a vacuum though.
Maybe to rephrase that, I think we should never teach our kids that men should hold open doors for women, we should teach them that people should open doors for people cause it's a nice thing to do.
Is Chivalry sexist? Yeah it is. Why because the mentality that lead to specified gender roles that have come with Chivalry contributed to a lot of the gender issues we are currently dealing with. Women are to be coveted and treated like objects for men to take and men are to be the heads protectors, essentially guard dogs, to women. It's a system that has lead to a lot of stress on both genders. More so for women I will say.
If you're going to do something nice for someone like hold the door you should do it for everyone. If you would offer your seat to a woman you should do it for everyone.
Now that being said pretending that men and women are the exact same isn't helpful either. Now I'm not talking in a sense women are inferior to men as a gender. I'm saying biological things like a woman is more likely to be weaker than a man on average. Flip side women are more often more flexible. Women deal with biological issues that I as a man will never have to and vice versa. As well as cultural things, women are perceived to be easier targets and therefore are often attacked more than a man.
So I might be more inclined to ask a female friend if they want walked to their car late at night than I am a male friend. Now I would still base this on the individual person but I still understand that there is a difference between a man and woman in this situation most of the time.
What I'm saying is that we are all people. We should all treat each other as people first but understand we are different and be okay with that. I do not feel Chivalry as it has become does that. It puts our genders first and sometimes as the most important thing while seeing us as people second.
Originally posted by Newjak
Is Chivalry sexist? Yeah it is. Why because the mentality that lead to specified gender roles that have come with Chivalry contributed to a lot of the gender issues we are currently dealing with. Women are to be coveted and treated like objects for men to take and men are to be the heads protectors, essentially guard dogs, to women. It's a system that has lead to a lot of stress on both genders. More so for women I will say.If you're going to do something nice for someone like hold the door you should do it for everyone. If you would offer your seat to a woman you should do it for everyone.
Now that being said pretending that men and women are the exact same isn't helpful either. Now I'm not talking in a sense women are inferior to men as a gender. I'm saying biological things like a woman is more likely to be weaker than a man on average. They deal with biological issues that I as a man will never have to and vice versa. As well as cultural things, women are perceived to be easier targets and therefore are often attacked more than a man.
So I might be more inclined to ask a female friend if they want walked to their car late at night than I am a male friend. Now I would still base this on the individual person but I still understand that there is a difference between a man and woman in this situation most of the time.
What I'm saying is that we are all people. We should all treat each other as people first but understand we are different and be okay with that. I do not feel Chivalry as it has become does that. It puts our genders first and sometimes as the most important thing while seeing us as people second.
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Originally posted by Quincy
Wish a woman would weigh in on this discussion.
Originally posted by Newjak
That would be nice.
The GDF and sub forums thereof have a bit of a gender issue...