Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Prof... The probes Weren't SKYFATHER LEVEL.. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I would at best call a FEW of them low trans... but nothing more. Let's not make OWAW out to be more than something it was.
They took on teams of HH and won, even a planet full of Daxams was nothing against one Probe. Ok let's just assume they are low Trans, oneshotting multiple of them at the same time puts you higher in this list. Even if they were only HH, unlikely but le't play it, oneshotting multiple of them is still above low Trans level. Don't you agree?
OWAW and FC Superman is the closest we have to a CISless Superman.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos bfr'd him and referred to him as an annoyance. He then decimates his team with relative ease. The same as a nanosecond statement passes as evidence. If the dialogue doesn't tell us we simply don't know. You can't pick and choose. The dialogue was pretty spot on. Quit ignoring the Nudc universe.
I'm already collecting too many books to fully jump into NUDc, maybe I'll pick up Multiversity later.
If the nanosecond comment was made by a character then it's certainly questionable and you're right of calling on it. But even if characters aren't actively clocking their actions in nanoseconds, Superman doesn't know every being in the universe, the same book you're citing giving us proof as there is a different planet buster than the one he was referring.
Glad we agree an statement doesn't maket things true 👆
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
They took on teams of HH and won, even a planet full of Daxams was nothing against one Probe. Ok let's just assume they are low Trans, oneshotting multiple of them at the same time puts you higher in this list. Even if they were only HH, unlikely but le't play it, oneshotting multiple of them is still above low Trans level. Don't you agree?OWAW and FC Superman is the closest we have to a CISless Superman.
That's the thing.. the probes (like all villians) were built up initially and being totally awesome and uber.. THEN when the story needs to progress an the bad guys lose.. they weren't only getting taken out by Superman. Surely, you couldn't have forgotten who also was able to take them out. It was a good showing no doubt.. but they weren't as impressive as you're making them out to be. I would say they ranged from Mid Herald to Low trans... We see HH taken on teams on heralds before... Superman and Thor have feats of beating people beyond Trans even.. Does that make them skyfather? one writer writing superman to finally let loose doesn't erase Superman's entire history of writers who didn't write him with said mental blocks and when they say he was going all out HE WAS.. That all didn't get rectonned because of one writers version of him. Which is fine. However it doesn't erase his long history of saying he's going all out and getting tossed around like a feeb.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's the thing.. the probes (like all villians) were built up initially and being totally awesome and uber.. THEN when the story needs to progress an the bad guys lose.. they weren't only getting taken out by Superman. Surely, you couldn't have forgotten who also was able to take them out. It was a good showing no doubt.. but they weren't as impressive as you're making them out to be. I would say they ranged from Mid Herald to Low trans... We see HH taken on teams on heralds before... Superman and Thor have feats of beating people beyond Trans even.. Does that make them skyfather? one writer writing superman to finally let loose doesn't erase Superman's entire history of writers who didn't write him with said mental blocks and when they say he was going all out HE WAS.. That all didn't get rectonned because of one writers version of him. Which is fine. However it doesn't erase his long history of saying he's going all out and getting tossed around like a feeb.
They were taken out by other but always with huge amps and great sacrifice, that was the point, they were till the end above everyone except Superman and he was the only one who took them out with ease, spitestomped them. That was to show how much he gained powerwise when serious.
So even so, MH and LT, oneshotting multiple of them is not a low showing for the Probes but a high showing for Supes, that was what Loeb wanted to achieve imo.
This going all out was different, he wasn't raging or being pissed angry, he was calm, focused. But this would be the closes thing to a CISless Superman and he was definetly above HH maybe even Trans chars. m2c
No doubt it was one of his more impressive showings... No argument there. My only problem with the whole conversation in this thread and others is this notion that Thaos has human level reactions and perception. He's no speedster but he has a CLEAR history of being able to react to fast people. So clearly he can perceive things and attacks coming his way pretty darn well. That's all I've said and others have said.
Originally posted by Bentley
Risks that they would've evaded if they could, Kang in the other hand, is looking for a challenge because he rules time unopposed. Everything else is the spoils of his conquest. He already has built artifacts that can shape up the multiverse. He's a time-traveler, if he wanted to collect artifacts or celestial powers he could do it without so much as decent opposition.
Originally posted by Bentley
I guess they were that much insecure?
Originally posted by Bentley
Again, those heavy inferiority complexes aren't doing them any favors. Losing to yourself because your lack of character surely sounds good to you, for Kang losing to a deserving opponent is much more valuable 👆
Originally posted by Bentley
Actually, Kang lost because Sunfire became an omega mutant out of the blue, so it seems you also underestimate his opponents awesr
Originally posted by Bentley
Kang is the only villain that could join such a select group, it seems that makes Doom/Thanos fans go ballistic against him. As a matter of fact, Doom and Thanos are great characters but at times they are depicted as "too perfect", Kang is flawed and should remain flawed, it's part of what makes the character great.
Originally posted by Bentley
Bottomline, don't be insecure like Doom and Thanos, embrace your inner Kang.
Originally posted by Epicurus
They still overcame those risks, and Doom triumphed despite all the odds stacked against him. Kang on the other hand manipulated the game from behind the shadows, disguising himself as Loki and sh1t, and still lost ultimately.
It wasn't Kang himself, it was Rama-tut. But I already answered this comment.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Or just that much more ambitious?.
In true their goals are just different. Kang doesn't covet infinite power because governing the universe is ultimately a chore, adding even more power to the mix doesn't really change any of that.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Kang is small fries, and ultimately not very relevant to the scope of Marvel's Big Villain Plots. It is only logical that he would keep himself limited to draining a Celestial as opposed to acquiring and mastering power which dwarfs that of the Living Tribunal. Which both Thanos(HoTI) and Doom(PR Beyonder) have achieved.
Your guess is as good as mine? Kang wouldn't enter in a schlong-messuring contest with the Living Tribunal (he's not that insecure), and to me recycling plots about a OMFG-So-Powerful-Artifact is not something that should be repeated ad nauseum.
If you really need for Marvel to recycle those plots in order for you to respect a character, more power to you 👆
But since you're bringing Marvel the End, let's remember that Kang and Immortus actually got neutralized by the user of the HOTU. I guess they are very scary small fries in the big picture of things.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Losing to your own inferiority complex is vastly less embarrassing than losing to a group of meta/herald level heroes who are already at a disadvantage because you rigged the game to work against them to begin with.😂 Which is what Kang did across Remender's arc; he rigged the game for him to win right from the beginning, and still lost swiftly and decisively to a pair of lower level heroes.
Kang had to face an opposition that erased his entire empire and to work a way around the measures that the twins took against time-travel. You can't applaud Doom's and Thanos's efforts while writting off Kang just because he accomplished most of his plan.
Remender's arc isn't the biggest Kang story ever either, I think it pales in several ways compared to the best Doom and Thanos has to offer and I wouldn't sing Kang praises for that single storyline. But he has done more and better in the past, this is just one of the many times he has been an universal threat.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Being an omega-mutant isn't the be-all-end-all. There are a number of omega level mutants who would barely qualify as low heralds due to lack of feats, and Remender's shitty knowledge of the characters he writes doesn't negate that fact. No omega mutant ever usurped Thanos or Doom.
I'm not hyping omega-mutants, but that's the *sspull that tipped the scale. If you are going to talk about Celestial-powered Sunfire as if he was regular Spider-man, then I have no business arguing with such bias.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Nope, he couldn't. Don't lie. Kang has never really been that relevant in the overall scheme of things when it comes to writing the big plot which involves a major villain causing havoc across the universe/multiverse. Doom and Thanos have. Doom was the star of Secret Wars, while Thanos was of Infinity Gauntlet, and both are bigger hits than any major plot which Kang has been involved in.
Kang has multiversal plots featuring him as the main villain or the end-game savior of everything. They are obviously not the big hits that Secret Wars and the Infinite Guantlet were, but very few comicbooks can claim that kind of fame.
But here I wasn't saying Kang is as big as Thanos or Doom, I was stating that he was "the next big thing". When Kang appears, sh_t is going down, he ain't your Magneto, your Apocalypse or even your Ultron.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Heck, Thanos has already been integrated as the final/boss villain in Marvel's multi-billion dollar cinematic universe. Eat that, Kang fan.
And I've never claimed that Kang was more famous or as big a villain as Thanos. He's the closest villain to that status, but his time-travelling plots will always hinder how people approach the character.
Thanos is a more relatable kind of evil too, Kang is just batsh_t crazy.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Nope, the actual bottomline is being a self-defeating douchebag like Doom or Thanos is much more preferable to being the worst breed of loser aka Kang.
Again, you can lose for absolutely no reason, or you can lose because people actually fought back against you. I don't see myself doing the apology of the former, but to each it's own.
We're quick to forget that time Doom actually obtained an Infinity Guantlet. He got spanked by no-name aliens losing all that power and he was not just obtaining that power like Kang did either...
Originally posted by Bentley
It wasn't Kang himself, it was Rama-tut. But I already answered this comment.
But nope, you didn't really address the issue. What exactly did Kang do, besides perfectly manipulating key events to lead a particular outcome? Anything which another big-name villain couldn't replicate under similar circumstances?
Because the difference so far is clear; when Thanos/Doom face unexpected glitches in their plan, they improvise and still triumph, while Kang in the face of unexpected hurdles only ends up expectedly going down.
Originally posted by Bentley
In true their goals are just different. Kang doesn't covet infinite power because governing the universe is ultimately a chore, adding even more power to the mix doesn't really change any of that.
Originally posted by Bentley
Your guess is as good as mine? Kang wouldn't enter in a schlong-messuring contest with the Living Tribunal (he's not that insecure), and to me recycling plots about a OMFG-So-Powerful-Artifact is not something that should be repeated ad nauseum.
Originally posted by Bentley
If you really need for Marvel to recycle those plots in order for you to respect a character, more power to you 👆
Originally posted by Bentley
But since you're bringing Marvel the End, let's remember that Kang and Immortus actually got neutralized by the user of the HOTU. I guess they are very scary small fries in the big picture of things.
Originally posted by Bentley
Kang had to face an opposition that erased his entire empire and to work a way around the measures that the twins took against time-travel. You can't applaud Doom's and Thanos's efforts while writting off Kang just because he accomplished most of his plan.
Originally posted by Bentley
Remender's arc isn't the biggest Kang story ever either, I think it pales in several ways compared to the best Doom and Thanos has to offer and I wouldn't sing Kang praises for that single storyline. But he has done more and better in the past, this is just one of the many times he has been an universal threat.
Originally posted by Bentley
I'm not hyping omega-mutants, but that's the *sspull that tipped the scale. If you are going to talk about Celestial-powered Sunfire as if he was regular Spider-man, then I have no business arguing with such bias.
Originally posted by Bentley
Kang has multiversal plots featuring him as the main villain or the end-game savior of everything. They are obviously not the big hits that Secret Wars and the Infinite Guantlet were, but very few comicbooks can claim that kind of fame.
Originally posted by Bentley
But here I wasn't saying Kang is as big as Thanos or Doom, I was stating that he was "the next big thing". When Kang appears, sh_t is going down, he ain't your Magneto, your Apocalypse or even your Ultron.
I wouldn't put Kang any above those 2 losers than I'd put him near the duo of winners called Doom and Thanos.👆
Originally posted by Bentley
And I've never claimed that Kang was more famous or as big a villain as Thanos. He's the closest villain to that status, but his time-travelling plots will always hinder how people approach the character.
Originally posted by Bentley
Thanos is a more relatable kind of evil too, Kang is just batsh_t crazy.
Originally posted by Bentley
Again, you can lose for absolutely no reason, or you can lose because people actually fought back against you. I don't see myself doing the apology of the former, but to each it's own.
Originally posted by Bentley
We're quick to forget that time Doom actually obtained an Infinity Guantlet. He got spanked by no-name aliens losing all that power and he was not just obtaining that power like Kang did either...
Your most questionable retorts are dead giveaways that you ignore Kang's most impressive showings. The rest is opinion and pointless taunts which you are allowed to have on the basis you prefer, I'm not going to address those.
You can continue to diss the character, it would be pretentious from me to impose you reading on him, but it would be equally unfullfilling to keep on arguing through wall of texts if you actually don't know what he has achieved. You say he has no great will, which he has. You say he hasn't achieved nothing, while he's the only villain other than Doom to have conquered 616 Earth. I feel that you aren't pursuing for anything constructive in this debate, so I won't waste your time with it.
The argument about Magneto's popularity on comicbooks and outside them, would certainly top Thanos's popularity, maybe even Doom's. As I pointed out earlier, my observations weren't meant to be a popularity contest. I know Kang is an obscure character, I wasn't born yesterday.
When it comes to the scale of things in Marvel, only Kang comes close to what Thanos and Doom have achieved. I didn't see anything in our discussion that made me even question the validity of my initial stance.
About Doom with the IG losing to some goons he created... Wow, that's an epic twisting you did there. I guess Ultron killing Pym is also Pym defeating himself ermm
Originally posted by Bentley
Your most questionable retorts are dead giveaways that you ignore Kang's most impressive showings. The rest is opinion and pointless taunts which you are allowed to have on the basis you prefer, I'm not going to address those.You can continue to diss the character, it would be pretentious from me to impose you reading on him, but it would be equally unfullfilling to keep on arguing through wall of texts if you actually don't know what he has achieved. You say he has no great will, which he has. You say he hasn't achieved nothing, while he's the only villain other than Doom to have conquered 616 Earth. I feel that you aren't pursuing for anything constructive in this debate, so I won't waste your time with it.
The argument about Magneto's popularity on comicbooks and outside them, would certainly top Thanos's popularity, maybe even Doom's. As I pointed out earlier, my observations weren't meant to be a popularity contest. I know Kang is an obscure character, I wasn't born yesterday.
When it comes to the scale of things in Marvel, only Kang comes close to what Thanos and Doom have achieved. I didn't see anything in our discussion that made me even question the validity of my initial stance.
About Doom with the IG losing to some goons he created... Wow, that's an epic twisting you did there. I guess Ultron killing Pym is also Pym defeating himself ermm
I say his will is well below that of Doom/Thanos-level beings. Show one feat wherein he achieves something impossible via willpower alone as both Thanso and Doom have done on-panel.
Nah, it wouldn't. Thanos's popularity is such that he was the one selected to be the final threat in the MCU. Not Kang. Despite the fact that Kang has a longer history of tussling with the Avengers than Thanos does. Even Ultron is getting a piece of that delicious billion dollar pie, while Kang has been virtually relegated to a forgettable footnote in Avengers history(from the perspective of the people who choose these characters as part of the MCU).
Nah, I disagree. Going by that logic Dark Beast is also the only person who comes close to achieving what Thanos and Doom have.
That is completely different as opposed to what Doom did. Those entities were borne of Doom's own fractured psyche, made in his own image. In that very issue Doom also more or less had grown out of the incessant need to achieve godhood, so the argument can be made that he willingly gave up the power. Again, self-defeating is much less embarrassing than losing to a duo of irrelevant characters.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I want to see the scans for either really..
Planet-busting strength:
Hits Infinity Man (as the Source's agent, at a ridiculous powerlevel) with planet-shattering blows:
http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i436/KMCPhilosophia/planetshattering1.jpg
Hits Konvikt with blows designed to shatter small planets:
http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i436/KMCPhilosophia/konviktplanetshattering.jpg
Punches so hard he destroys the Earth and space/time:
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength1.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength2.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength3.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength4.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength5.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength6.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesvse2strength7.jpg
I've kept this part only with planet-related strength feats. Superman has feats that far surpass these ones. 🙂
Speed:
Well, this one's even easier. You doubt Superman could throw 10,000 punches in a second? The weakest incarnation of Superman (Byrne) can operate between one nanosecond and the next.
Just in case the scale is not understood, one nanosecond is equal to 0.000000001 seconds.
Proof:
His body is so speeded up that he can casually interact in a fraction of a nanosecond, an instant suspended between „eternities of past and future” – a time suspension.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/NanosecondInteraction1.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/NanosecondInteraction2.jpg
If we assume that Superman could throw one punch every two nanoseconds (i.e. we assume that every nanosecond for him is like a second to us - which is false, as he's even faster than that, and if we also assume that you can throw a punch every two nanoseconds - which again, is wrong, as I assume even a fatass like you can do better than that), then Superman can still throw roughly half a billion punches in one second.
So we're downgrading Superman's speed roughly 50,000 times slower, and he is still fast enough to deliver 10,000 punches in a second.
🙂
Post-DCnU:
Strength:
...
After the latest feat with Brainiac's ship, I don't think there's need to show him as capable of exerting strength to destroy a planet, so I'll just skip this one.
Speed:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/134088/2681462-2681421-22.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/134088/2681464-2681422-23.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/134088/2681465-2681426-25.jpg
"I've just read every medical text ever published"
I don't think I need to expand on that - but I will, just in case [well, it is you]. Imagine you're reading Harry Potter. Now, in the time it takes you to read those pages and understood everything there, how many punches do you think you can throw? Change Harry Potter into complex medical books, multiply the number of books by a nigh-inconceivable amount, and you have Superman's feat.
Calculation-wise, I'm quite certain this easily surpasses billions of punches.
Well, there you have it.
Originally posted by BentleyNo, if we have statements clearly demonstrating what is occurring on panel we don't ignore it. You're hypocritical and want to pick some statements while ignoring others.
I'm already collecting too many books to fully jump into NUDc, maybe I'll pick up Multiversity later.If the nanosecond comment was made by a character then it's certainly questionable and you're right of calling on it. But even if characters aren't actively clocking their actions in nanoseconds, Superman doesn't know every being in the universe, the same book you're citing giving us proof as there is a different planet buster than the one he was referring.
Glad we agree an statement doesn't maket things true 👆
Only one planet buster so far with the characters he is familiar with.
😂
Originally posted by Epicurus
I have read enough Kang to know that he isn't some hypothetical big villain that you're making him out to be.
Eh, your opinion.
Originally posted by Epicurus
I say his will is well below that of Doom/Thanos-level beings. Show one feat wherein he achieves something impossible via willpower alone as both Thanso and Doom have done on-panel.
Avengers Forever, final issue. Using sheer willpower he counters time manipulation from the Timelords.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Nah, it wouldn't. Thanos's popularity is such that he was the one selected to be the final threat in the MCU. Not Kang. Despite the fact that Kang has a longer history of tussling with the Avengers than Thanos does. Even Ultron is getting a piece of that delicious billion dollar pie, while Kang has been virtually relegated to a forgettable footnote in Avengers history(from the perspective of the people who choose these characters as part of the MCU).
Being a final boss is good, but until he does something remarkable, Loki is the big winner of the Cinematic Universe. Thanos got also chosen because it makes sense for his character, considering we're having a Cosmic Cube/Infinity Guantlet plot. I don't think it would be any better to force Kang into canon in a plot that had nothing to do with the character.
Also, if we choose to be sketchy, we could say that Kang is actually so close to Thanos's level that he risks of overshadowing him. That'd be why he's being left alone from current movies 😛
Originally posted by Epicurus
Nah, I disagree. Going by that logic Dark Beast is also the only person who comes close to achieving what Thanos and Doom have.
Want to battlezone me on that? I'm pretty confident that Kang overshadows Dark Beast in the scale of things (I admit the X-men lore can be pretty stupid).
Originally posted by Epicurus
That is completely different as opposed to what Doom did. Those entities were borne of Doom's own fractured psyche, made in his own image. In that very issue Doom also more or less had grown out of the incessant need to achieve godhood, so the argument can be made that he willingly gave up the power. Again, self-defeating is much less embarrassing than losing to a duo of irrelevant characters.
Ultron is made from Pym's psyche himself. Doom said he didn't want godhood because he lost it, like a sore kid (just wait until the next time he covets infinite power).
Sure, an argument can be made about he giving up power willingly, but it would be a poor argument.
Those characters are more relevant than the nameless grunts that took on Doom awesr
Originally posted by tkitna
Thanos beats Superman to death with Gladiators lifeless body.I cant believe people actually think Superman and Gladiator has a chance here. Its seriously mind boggling.
