Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was still a mere apprentice when he found Revan's holocron and read about him. Of course he was in awe.
My point was that, of all of the ancient sith lords of antiquity, Darth Revan seems to stand out among them all. The redeemed Revan is, by Meetra's estimation, the most powerful Force user she has ever met - a list that would include Darth Nihilus, who I would consider one of the most powerful sith lords in the mythos by his haxxed telekinesis. There is nothing in either feats or words that puts Zannah in that exclusive class. Perhaps many years after DoE, in her prime, she would display abilities on such a tier, but the Zannah we see hasn't done much of anything to impress me.
That doesn't prove anything, Bane is easily as powerful as Revan if not more powerful.
That is certainly a possibility, but both are certainly far more powerful than DoE Zannah.
If we're going by just accolades then nothing Revan has is greater than Bane being the Sith'ari.
The Sith'ari isn't necessarily an indication of power. Being labeled more powerful than Darth Nihilus is.
Saying that Revan is far greater than Zannah is ridiculous and ignores everything I've established in this thread.
Do you seriously think Darth Zannah is more powerful than Nihilus? 😉
If we're going by feats though, Revan couldn't topple the Temple of the Ancients with a capital ship
With a capital ship? As in, he fired on it with a capital ship and couldn't destroy it? WTF does that have to do with Revan's power, rather than that of the capital ship? 😕
Originally posted by Skybreaker
My point was that, of all of the ancient sith lords of antiquity, Darth Revan seems to stand out among them all. The redeemed Revan is, by Meetra's estimation, the most powerful Force user she has ever met - a list that would include Darth Nihilus, who I would consider one of the most powerful sith lords in the mythos by his haxxed telekinesis. There is nothing in either feats or words that puts Zannah in that exclusive class. Perhaps many years after DoE, in her prime, she would display abilities on such a tier, but the Zannah we see hasn't done much of anything to impress me.
Not really. The only praise Bane gives Revan before getting his holocron was that he and Malak had nearly succeeded in wiping out the Republic. And after getting it he just goes on about how much better Revan was than the Brotherhood guys.
That Meetra quote is irrelevant since a) she was just being stupid b) Karpyshan was just being stupid c) Karpyshan never played Kotor II so he has no clue what he's talking about, d) the exact quote is "Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met", which can be interpreted in a number of ways other than Revan being more powerful than Nihilus and e) Meetra lacks the info to make that statement accurately, since you can't sense a Force Wounds power in the Force, they feel a gaping wound, a dead person or nothing at all.
Zannah dueling evenly with Bane impresses me more than anything Revan has done. She was his equal in the Force and nearly in sabers as well. Revan would utterly fail to overcome her lightsaber defense and then fall to her mental assault.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
That is certainly a possibility, but both are certainly far more powerful than DoE Zannah.
Zannah beat Bane after fighting him in a close duel. If Bane were far more powerful than her he would have been able to TK her or overpower her in a some other manner. He wasn't.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
The Sith'ari isn't necessarily an indication of power. Being labeled more powerful than Darth Nihilus is.
The Sith'ari was said to have "perfect strength, perfect power" and can be translated as "God of the Sith."
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Do you seriously think Darth Zannah is more powerful than Nihilus? 😉
Do you seriously think Revan is? 😬
Originally posted by Skybreaker
With a capital ship? As in, he fired on it with a capital ship and couldn't destroy it? WTF does that have to do with Revan's power, rather than that of the capital ship? 😕
Well I was just being snide but if Revan could have destroyed the temple with his Force powers, don't you think he would have done so if his ship lacked the firepower?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. The only praise Bane gives Revan before getting his holocron was that he and Malak had nearly succeeded in wiping out the Republic. And after getting it he just goes on about how much better Revan was than the Brotherhood guys.
This is true. I think the point I was just trying to make is that nobody has ever given Zannah the level of praise Revan received, and Bane himself is even slightly disappointed in her at times. Would he have been so disappointed were she as powerful as his idol, Revan? This may seem like a highly speculative point, but given that Zannah's only notable feat is defeating under conditional circumstances an aging Bane, it's just another chip in Revan's favor.
That Meetra quote is irrelevant since a) she was just being stupid
Sure maybe she was just being stupid. Or maybe you're just grasping at straws.
b) Karpyshan was just being stupid c) Karpyshan never played Kotor II
Wait, so why the f*ck were you taking Nyriss's pwning her at face value in the other thread? 🙄
d) the exact quote is "Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met", which can be interpreted in a number of ways other than Revan being more powerful than Nihilus
Except it can't, because she was concerned about their chances of taking on the Emperor, not of proper meditation posing.
e) Meetra lacks the info to make that statement accurately, since you can't sense a Force Wounds power in the Force, they feel a gaping wound, a dead person or nothing at all.
Please cite this.
Zannah dueling evenly with Bane impresses me more than anything Revan has done. She was his equal in the Force and nearly in sabers as well.
You miss the part where she would have lost to Bane had it not been for the particular location of the duel. I would also ask you to explain to me how she was his "near" equal in sabers. I do not remember the fight perfectly; I do remember that Zannah is a soresu practitioner who already knows all of Bane's moves, so just surviving for a long time doesn't really mean she's on his level.
Revan would utterly fail to overcome her lightsaber defense
He would destroy her with the Force.
and then fall to her mental assault.
Why? Because it's not as though Revan has a ridiculous knowledge of arcane Force powers or anything. 🙄
If Bane were far more powerful than her he would have been able to TK her or overpower her in a some other manner.
Granted, Bane couldn't even overpower a bunch of shadow guards with the Force. My opinion on him fluctuates. But just being powerful enough to not be ragdolled by an aging Bane doesn't really tell me that she's more powerful than Revan. She has no other substantive feats to the order of knocking the Emperor on his ass or defeating SF empowered Malak. You bank everything on vaguely powerscaling from a weakened Bane on a planet where Zannah can uniquely access certain arcane force abilities.
The Sith'ari was said to have "perfect strength, perfect power" and can be translated as "God of the Sith."
Taking that literally Bane is more powerful than Abeloth.
Do you seriously think Revan is? 😬
Yes. Meetra said so, and there's no reason to think she's lying.
Well I was just being snide but if Revan could have destroyed the temple with his Force powers, don't you think he would have done so if his ship lacked the firepower?
I dunno, just now I took an elevator up a few stories, while this other ******* took the stairs; you could make a good argument that he was really better at walking than me, but you would be a ****ing idiot.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
This is true. I think the point I was just trying to make is that nobody has ever given Zannah the level of praise Revan received, and Bane himself is even slightly disappointed in her at times. Would he have been so disappointed were she as powerful as his idol, Revan? This may seem like a highly speculative point, but given that Zannah's [b]only notable feat is defeating under conditional circumstances an aging Bane, it's just another chip in Revan's favor.[/b]
Bane never idolised Revan, so your point is meaningless. Bane said that Revan knew a lot of darkside teachings and force knowledge. All of which Zannah also possesses, as well as alot more. That's about it as far as his admiration went. Bane considered Zannah to have the ability to surpass him, to have potential even greater than his own. So clearly she was really ****ing powerful. Power which she demonstrated even as a child when she blocked the Force Storm on Ruusan.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Sure maybe she was just being stupid. Or maybe you're just grasping at straws.
Meetra was a massive Revan fangirl in the novel and she only ever met a very weak Nihilus anyway.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Wait, so why the f*ck were you taking Nyriss's pwning her at face value in the other thread? 🙄
Because it helps my argument in the other thread. :trollface:
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Except it can't, because she was concerned about their chances of taking on the Emperor, not of proper meditation posing.
No she wasn't, she was saying that she could see why Scourge followed him.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Please cite this.
"When he was here I felt it. It was as if he was not there, more like an echo."
"You saw it in his walk, and in the Force. It was as if he was already dead."
"This master is dead, drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it is like an absence in the Force."
Theres a lot more but I'm too tired to find it.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
You miss the part where she would have lost to Bane had it not been for the particular location of the duel. I would also ask you to explain to me how she was his "near" equal in sabers. I do not remember the fight perfectly; I do remember that Zannah is a soresu practitioner who already knows all of Bane's moves, so just surviving for a long time doesn't really mean she's on his level.
You're absolutely right, you don't remember the fight very well. Because it's the exact opposite, Zannah would have won the fight much quicker if it weren't for some loose gravestones. Zannah was seconds from unleashing an amped up mental attack before that point. So in a different location she'd likely still have won. Bane wasn't able to get through her defense, despite coming at her harder than he ever had before and using techniques he'd never shown her. Her being able to defend against him so well does prove that she can compete with him in terms of strength and speed, two things Bane is far greater in than Revan. So how is Revan going to get through her lightsaber defense without the two most effective tools for doing so? His skill seriously isn't sufficient.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
He would destroy her with the Force.
How? TK? No. Lightning? No. Telepathy? No. Sorcery? No.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Why? Because it's not as though Revan has a ridiculous knowledge of arcane Force powers or anything. 🙄
Because while she's defending against him in lightsaber combat she'd build up her power for an unblockable mental assault. That was her plan against Bane.
Also Zannah's knowledge is greater than Revan's. She has everything in his holocron as well as Freedon Nadd's, Belia Darzu's and more.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Granted, Bane couldn't even overpower a bunch of shadow guards with the Force. My opinion on him fluctuates. But just being powerful enough to not be ragdolled by an aging Bane doesn't really tell me that she's more powerful than Revan. She has [b]no other substantive feats to the order of knocking the Emperor on his ass or defeating SF empowered Malak. You bank everything on vaguely powerscaling from a weakened Bane on a planet where Zannah can uniquely access certain arcane force abilities.[/b]
It's more than that she wasn't ragdolled, she was powerful enough to smash Bane into a wall with TK, so she's clearly on his level with it. And Revan knocked a distracted Vitiate who had most of his power elsewhere on his ass. Big deal. DoE Bane was faster and more powerful than he'd ever been seen on paper, so don't use the age card here. Zannah was performing greater feats than Revan as a child.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Taking that literally Bane is more powerful than Abeloth.
Just as ridiculous as Revan > Nihilus.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yes. Meetra said so, and there's no reason to think she's lying.
Well he's not. 😬
Also Meetra only met a highly weakened Nihilus.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
I dunno, just now I took an elevator up a few stories, while this other ******* took the stairs; you could make a good argument that he was really better at walking than me, but you would be a ****ing idiot.
I'd argue you'd be a ****ing idiot if you tried taking an elevator that didn't go to the floor you wanted, if the stairs go to that floor. Unless you don't have the stamina to make it up all those stairs, of course. Then you're just weaker than the other guy. 😉
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Zannah's knowledge is greater than Revan's. She has everything in his holocron as well as Freedon Nadd's, Belia Darzu's and more.
That assumes Revan put all his knowledge into the holocron and that he hadn't learned anything since.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Meetra only met a highly weakened Nihilus.
Nah, she met him at full power before he attempted to drain her.
Originally posted by ares834
That assumes Revan put all his knowledge into the holocron and that he hadn't learned anything since.Nah, she met him at full power before he attempted to drain her.
There's no reason for him not to, especially since he even made his holocron inaccessible to those who weren't worthy. And I really doubt he learned anything afterwards, it seems to me he made it during the war since it was full-on evil mode Revan.
No, he was still starving by that point.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no reason for him not to, especially since he even made his holocron inaccessible to those who weren't worthy. And I really doubt he learned anything afterwards, it seems to me he made it during the war since it was full-on evil mode Revan.
So you're running on assumptions. Gotcha.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he was still starving by that point.
Based on?
He may have been hungry, but I recall nothing suggesting he was "massively weakened".
Is there any reason to think that?
Originally posted by ares834
So you're running on assumptions. Gotcha.
Well the novel does that that Bane was going to learn "all" of Revan's knowledge. And you didn't contradict my reasoning.
Regardless though, Zannah still has Revan's, Nadd's and Darzu's holocrons plus more material. I highly doubt Revan knew so much that he left out more than all that gives Zannah. 🙄
So you can call it assuming if you want, but I prefer to think of it as the massively more likely option that her knowledge eclipses his.
Originally posted by ares834
Based on?He may have been hungry, but I recall nothing suggesting he was "massively weakened".
"The Master suffers... if he cannot feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet... Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain him awhile longer."
And Visas says that he has no choice but to feed on Telos. I'm fairly sure she also says he's starving too at some point.
We had a mega debate about it and I typed like paragraphs on why I'm right. You don't remember?
Anyway, to put it short: When you go to Rakata in KotOR both sides say they never saw Darth Revan again after they opened the Temple for him, meaning he never came back to the world. This means he would have made the holocron in the duration between the opening of the temple and him claiming the Star Forge. He left the holocron there as he left the world, never anticipating going back. Funny enough, he came back later redeemed.