I'd say all the available evidence paints a far greater picture of Ulic Qel-Droma but I'd probably get accused of trolling or told "no". Apparently stalemating one of the truly most powerful Sith ever in Exar Kun, or holding off notable Jedi while being cut off from the Force, just aren't on the same level as hanging with the likes of Savage Opress (I think? still haven't seen much of the cartoon) or Ventress.
Originally posted by appletonia
I'd say all the available evidence paints a far greater picture of Ulic Qel-Droma but I'd probably get accused of trolling or told "no". Apparently stalemating one of the truly most powerful Sith ever in Exar Kun
Originally posted by appletonia
just aren't on the same level as hanging with the likes of Savage Opress (I think? still haven't seen much of the cartoon) or Ventress.
Kun was an inverter of double bladed saber - unrefined style.
Maul was a master of double bladed saber - the style refined for thousands years, also, lightsaber design improved.
Kenobi fending off Maul + Opress >>>> than anything Kun can bring.
or holding off notable Jedi while being cut off from the Force, just aren't on the same level as hanging with the likes of Savage Opress (I think? still haven't seen much of the cartoon) or Ventress.
Characters that are severed from the Force are considered void in the Force, they cannot be sensed by other Jedi and their moves cannot be anticipated. If anything that notable Jedi was at disadvantage, not Uliq.
Originally posted by ArhaelI see you haven't bothered reading about how saberstaffs came to prominence or where Maul got almost all of his inspiration from.
Kun was an inverter of double bladed saber - unrefined style.Maul was a master of double bladed saber - the style refined for thousands years, also, lightsaber design improved.
Kun was highly refined as even those like Plagueis consider Kun to be the guy when a saberstaff becomes relevant.
Maul is not > Kun by any means if that is what you are suggesting, Kun practically laughed at the dueling abilities of post-DE Luke.
Also Kun thoroughly bossed Vodo twice and Vodo is noted as one of the foremost form V masters and one of the best Guardians of all time.
Kun was never replicated in his mastery of Niman, nor was his personal use of the saberstaff replicated either, he was an all-time great and a natural prodigy.
I'd also like to know why you think saberstaff combat became more refined when it's stated outright that Kun remained one of the best of all time and that he got the design for the Saberstaff from a Sith holocron hundreds of thousands of years old.
Back on-topic however, I don't see Ulic being superior to pre-suit Vader in any manner so there is no reason for me to believe he'd enjoy a better fate than Vader did in similar circumstances.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
To be fair, that was before Kun got his pimpsaber.
Kun was an incredibly powerful Force User and exceptional duelist, saberstaff or otherwise. The fact that he was able to create his own style of combat is also a reflection of his general familiarity and creativity with a lightsaber, which is a skill that's transferrable regardless of whether or not he uses that weapon. The people that Obi-Wan can contend with are nowhere near his level in either lightsaber skill or Force ability.
I should also note that Ulic was badly injured during that fight and thus at a disadvantage.
What about hanging with the likes of pre-suit Darth Vader or fending off Darth Maul and Savage Opress at the same time?
I have yet to read the ROTS novel but from what I hear, the Anakin that faced Obi-Wan was a conflicted mess, and had been dominating the fight up until the tactical error that saw him defeated. That's not mentioning the unique way they match up due to their master/student relationship and how they new each other as well as they knew themselves, which can often lead to unpredictable outcomes. I'm not convinced that their fight puts Obi-Wan on Anakin's level but rather than it shows how the two specifically match up under a specific set of circumstances.
Either way I would not put pre-suit Vader anywhere near Exar Kun as a duelist. He's never come close to reaching the heights Exar has with the Force, nor has he displayed the technical brilliance with a lightsaber Kun had at that point. Ditto with Maul and Opress, individually or together.
Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma outclass anyone from the movies with a lightsaber imo (and I don't personally consider Obi-Wan a top tier duelist from that era regardless). One's the creator of a lightsaber style/weapon and one of the most godly Force Users ever, the other was able to compete with notable Jedi even after having his Force sensitivity stripped form him, and they're both practically equals. I don't think Yoda or Mace Windu are on their level, much less Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Arhael
Kun was an inverter of double bladed saber - unrefined style.
Except for the fact that it was stated to be superior to the existing 7 lightsaber forms.
Maul was a master of double bladed saber
The creator of a form of combat will have a far more intimate familiarity with it than the standard master.
- the style refined for thousands years, also, lightsaber design improved.
The lightsaber forms had already existed for thousands of years by that point, and there is little evidence to suggest that they progressed much further beyond that point.
Kenobi fending off Maul + Opress >>>> than anything Kun can bring.
Maul and Opress are relative pipsqueaks next to the likes of Exar or Ulic.
Characters that are severed from the Force are considered void in the Force, they cannot be sensed by other Jedi and their moves cannot be anticipated. If anything that notable Jedi was at disadvantage, not Uliq.
What on earth are you on about?? It was his ability to use the Force that was taken away from him, not his presence in the Force.
Sure, but it's hardly crucial to my argument. The fact that he was able to create a form that enabled him to defeat a centuries old battlemaster at all, is either a reflection of the fact that he was so ingenious that he was able to create a great form of combat, or so damn good that he was able to defeat a centuries old battlemaster with an innefectual form of combat. Either scenario depicts him as being pretty godly with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by appletonia
Sure, but it's hardly crucial to my argument. The fact that he was able to create a form that enabled him to defeat a centuries old battlemaster at all, is either a reflection of the fact that he was so ingenious that he was able to create a great form of combat, or so damn good that he was able to defeat a centuries old battlemaster with an innefectual form of combat. Either scenario depicts him as being pretty godly with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I see you haven't bothered reading about how saberstaffs came to prominence or where Maul got almost all of his inspiration from.Kun was highly refined as even those like Plagueis consider Kun to be the guy when a saberstaff becomes relevant.
Maul is not > Kun by any means if that is what you are suggesting, Kun practically laughed at the dueling abilities of post-DE Luke.
Also Kun thoroughly bossed Vodo twice and Vodo is noted as one of the foremost form V masters and one of the best Guardians of all time.
Kun was never replicated in his mastery of Niman, nor was his personal use of the saberstaff replicated either, he was an all-time great and a natural prodigy.
I'd also like to know why you think saberstaff combat became more refined when it's stated outright that Kun remained one of the best of all time and that he got the design for the Saberstaff from a Sith holocron hundreds of thousands of years old.
Back on-topic however, I don't see Ulic being superior to pre-suit Vader in any manner so there is no reason for me to believe he'd enjoy a better fate than Vader did in similar circumstances.
Vodo never dealt with saber stuff. Unknown style and lack of knowledge how to defend against it played against him. Prove he was unparalled in mastery of Niman. He invented it. The style was refined since.
How is post-DE Luke relevant? They never dueled.
The creator of a form of combat will have a far more intimate familiarity with it than the standard master.
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" - Mace Windu.
The lightsaber forms had already existed for thousands of years by that point, and there is little evidence to suggest that they progressed much further beyond that point.
Maul and Opress are relative pipsqueaks next to the likes of Exar or Ulic.
What on earth are you on about?? It was his ability to use the Force that was taken away from him, not his presence in the Force.
"Fencing with Callista challenged Luke as well, because in any other foe, he could use the Force to sense emotional states, to detect subtle changes that foreshadowed impending moves, unexpected attacks, vicious tricks. But Callista was a disconcerting blank to him, an empty spot-which made her a worthy opponent. Although she could not sense his moves or his plans, he couldn't detect hers either." - Darksaber.
Callista was severed from the Force. But not completely, she could use Force again through darkside. Still Luke could not anticipate her.
That's absolute bullshit."I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" - Mace Windu.
Well that disproves it... 🙄
Mace Windu was not simply making a statement about what is better between the creator of a form and the master of a form, but specifically what was greater between "the creator of a killing form" and "the master of the classic form" in a philosophical discussion about the nature of their chosen forms. The point he was making was that the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu were more dependent on their forms due to the fact that they answered specific weaknesses that they possessed, whereas Obi-Wan possessed no weaknesses that he would need to rely on a form to answer. This was also a discussion tailored around a hypothetical battle against Grievous, and Mace Windu was saying that due to the nature of Grievous's ability to mimic an opponent's form, the simplicity of Soresu was such that Grievous's ability to mimic it wouldn't be quite as effective, and what made Obi-Wan so perfectly suited for Grievous was that his understated ability with Soresu transcended the functional complexity of any form in that particular scenario. Nice try though.
A learner of something will never be more familiar with its workings than the person who created it (provided he did so knowingly, and hasn't forgotten aspects of it); at best you can equal the creator's familiarity but that entails attaining nothing short of perfection and is certainly nothing the standard master can be said to possess.
At that point saber staff style did not existed. It puts at disadvantage anyone who first time fought practitioner of saberstaff.
That's is incorrect, the weapon absolutely existed. Exar Kun simply developed a variant saberstaff and his own unique form of combat.
Good luck proving it.
That's what all the evidence points to. While Maul and Opress perform street level telekinesis Exar Kun has been able to use the Force to dominate thousands of individuals at once, and Ulic was able to remain competetive with him in a fight.
He was severed from the Force. It means he is void in the Force"Fencing with Callista challenged Luke as well, because in any other foe, he could use the Force to sense emotional states, to detect subtle changes that foreshadowed impending moves, unexpected attacks, vicious tricks. But Callista was a disconcerting blank to him, an empty spot-which made her a worthy opponent. Although she could not sense his moves or his plans, he couldn't detect hers either." - Darksaber.
Callista was severed from the Force. But not completely, she could use Force again through darkside. Still Luke could not anticipate her.
Which is clearly a different condition to the one Ulic faced, as you yourself note that she could still use the darkside. What you're describing, being invisible in the Force but at the same time being able to use the darkside, is not at all similar to what happened to Ulic. It's made pretty clear that losing your connection to the Force doesn't make you invisible in it.