Uliq Qel Droma vs ROTS Kenobi ( Sabers Only )

You don't seem like a particularly trustworthy fellow. There's something shifty about you.

I don't know whoever gave you that impression, but whoever it was, do not believe her lies.

Or perhaps that "centuries old battlemaster" just wasn't that good in the grand scheme of things? Or perhaps a reflection of superior Force talent and not necessarily a product of prodigious technical aptitude?

The likelihood is that a notable and ancient battlemaster is going to be an exceptional duelist; being able to dominate somebody of that stature with an inadequate style is a remarkably impressive feat. And yes, of course it's a demonstration of Force talent rather than technical skill if that is what actually happened, and it's a remarkable display of ability either way.

Maul is accredited as high end master of multiple forms

But let's remind ourselves that we know that Maul is a high end master of multiple forms simply because we know that he is a practitioner of Juyo; the focus is not on Maul but the Juyo form itself, and while it does make it seem like Juyo is a relatively advanced form, by no means does anything indicate that it's some kind of spectacular accomplishment to be able to meet the requirements to start learning the form. Do we have any real evidence that being a high end master of multiple forms is all that great in the grand scheme of things, in the face of pretty much nothing suggesting that it was really all that rare or notable for a Jedi to start practising Juyo?

Also can we be sure that being a high end master of multiple forms was a technical requirement for learning Juyo, or simply a practical requirement that the Jedi Order followed? If it's the latter, we can't really say for sure that Maul was a high end master of multiple forms as he obviously wasn't obligated to follow Jedi conventions.

and is consistently referred to as one of the most skilled warriors in Sith history.

As a forum we deal almost exclusively with the most skilled or powerful individuals ever. There's still however a pretty massive variance among that group, and Maul based on all available evidence is right at the lower end of it.

In light of that, your assertions that stalemating Qel-Droma makes one vastly superior to Maul seem pretty empty, especially when there's little to nothing by way of evidence to suggest that that's actually the case.

Please, Ulic has quite easily the greatest demonstration of technical ability we've ever seen from a Jedi or Sith. Being able to compete with a Jedi in a conventional duel without access to superhuman abilities (let alone having had those abilities and then losing them, and not even being in your physical prime or in a position to regularly train) is something that's almost unheard of and the domain of the few truly most skilled warriors in the Galaxy. In Ulic what we have is quite simply the unique union of one of the most powerful Force Users ever (possibly top 30ish?) with one of the most skilled warriors in the grand scheme of things (not limited to just Force Users, which take up a very tiny, insignificant portion of the galactic population). He's quite possibly the single greatest duelist the Jedi or Sith have ever produced.

Originally posted by appletonia
I don't know whoever gave you that impression, but whoever it was, do not believe her lies.

It's the winning combination of beady eyes and pedophilic mustache.

Originally posted by appletonia
The likelihood is that a notable and ancient battlemaster is going to be an exceptional duelist; being able to dominate somebody of that stature with an inadequate style is a remarkably impressive feat. And yes, of course it's a demonstration of Force talent rather than technical skill if that is what actually happened, and it's a remarkable display of ability either way.

As is often the case with poor Vodo vis a vis other characters is that I'm expected by certain debaters to give the featless wonder the benefit of an extraordinary doubt whereas characters who actually are consistently referred to as exceptional duelists (i.e. Maul, in this case) are received by those same debaters with disproportionate skepticism.

In other words, I'm not feeling particularly generous and your defense hinges on a series of chasm-wide assumptions I'm disinclined to leap. 😬

Originally posted by appletonia
But let's remind ourselves that we know that Maul is a high end master of multiple forms simply because we know that he is a practitioner of Juyo; the focus is not on Maul but the Juyo form itself, and while it does make it seem like Juyo is a relatively advanced form, by no means does anything indicate that it's some kind of spectacular accomplishment to be able to meet the requirements to start learning the form. Do we have any real evidence that being a high end master of multiple forms is all that great in the grand scheme of things, in the face of pretty much nothing suggesting that it was really all that rare or notable for a Jedi to start practising Juyo?

We have more evidence to suggest that than, say, Ulic Qel-Droma being a comparable or superior technicial vis a vis Maul.

Originally posted by appletonia
Also can we be sure that being a high end master of multiple forms was a technical requirement for learning Juyo, or simply a practical requirement that the Jedi Order followed? If it's the latter, we can't really say for sure that Maul was a high end master of multiple forms as he obviously wasn't obligated to follow Jedi conventions.

Do we have reason to believe otherwise?

Originally posted by appletonia
As a forum we deal almost exclusively with the most skilled or powerful individuals ever. There's still however a pretty massive variance among that group, and Maul based on all available evidence is right at the lower end of it.

Based on all available evidence, Ulic doesn't qualify for that bracket at all. 😬

Originally posted by appletonia
Please, Ulic has quite easily the greatest demonstration of technical ability we've ever seen from a Jedi or Sith. Being able to compete with a Jedi in a conventional duel without access to superhuman abilities (let alone having had those abilities and then losing them, and not even being in your physical prime or in a position to regularly train) is something that's almost unheard of and the domain of the few truly most skilled warriors in the Galaxy. In Ulic what we have is quite simply the unique union of one of the most powerful Force Users ever (possibly top 30ish?) with one of the most skilled warriors in the grand scheme of things (not limited to just Force Users, which take up a very tiny, insignificant portion of the galactic population). He's quite possibly the single greatest duelist the Jedi or Sith have ever produced.

Perhaps the Jedi in question is as overrated as Vodo? Seems to be a recurring theme for that era.

Iirc he has accolades calling him among the best of the era, but yeah he has no feats other than accolades. I'd like to think of him as skilled but he went down fast against Exar. He moved his saberstaff rapidly enough to break duracreet though!

That is quite incorrect, he did.

This isn't a simple matter of there being qualitative differences in the things they respectively have done or can do, it's a matter of Exar simply performing at a quantifiably higher level than they have and repeatedly doing things that are quite unprecedented where they never do anything particularly outside the norm. Whether it comes to brilliance with a lightsaber or the scale of their powers, Exar Kun vastly outstrips them.

Regardless, Tempest pretty much did the job done.

Either way it sounds like a different technique/condition, as the Sever Force ability has been well documented and it's made very clear that it is simply their ability to use the Force that is diminished.

There are numerous occasions where a notable Force User is bested in combat by a non-Force User without the use of tricks or gadgets or extreme circumstances; refer to a young Malak getting bested by a Mandalorian in a conventional duel in the KOTOR comics as an example. It's never been established that even notably powerful (but not extraordinarily powerful) Jedi/Sith can easily overwhelm a non-Force User with speed alone. It's an advantage but not necessarily a determining one. Technique can make up the difference.

And surely Sylvar would be able to use this blitz worthy speed, whether she could sense Ulic or not? Jedi rely on their ability to sense things in the Force, but it doesn't make them blind to their other senses.

Didn't say anything abut Niman.

As I said, it's not about the arbitrary differences between sorcerers and warriors. It's that Exar has demonstrated the ability to dominate individuals or cause physical damage on a far greater scale, and has demonstrated things of a far more unprecedented nature (they weren't rituals btw). Maul and Opress perform things on a much lower scale, things that have been replicated by numerous people, and that have been vastly outstripped by numerous people. They in no way stand out as powerful Force Users.

ROTS Sidious is not the most powerful Sith to have ever lived; he's a relative chump next to the likes of Exar Kun. DE Sidious is a candidate for most powerful Sith Lord of all time, not ROTS.

Concession accepted.

So you're arguing precognition and not speed? You might think that it should be impossible for a non-Force User to be able to challenge someone with precognitive abilities in a conventional fight, but the fact remains that canon as a whole disagrees with you. For a G-Canon example, refer to Obi-Wan's battle with Jango Fett in AOTC when they engage in a fist fight for a short period; Jango is at times able to block Obi-Wan's blows and land some of his own. If precog was the be all end all as you seem to believe, that wouldn't have been possible.

You ranked Kao Cen Darach above Maul based on the one trailer he was in and said Ulic and SF Malak individually are better than the first 4 combatants they faced in their gauntlet ( 2 of which were Dooku and Vader )

I believe nothing you say.

Is it not possible that Maul, Dooku and Vader are just really weak?

Originally posted by appletonia
As I said, it's not about the arbitrary differences between sorcerers and warriors. It's that Exar has demonstrated the ability to dominate individuals or cause physical damage on a far greater scale, and has demonstrated things of a far more unprecedented nature (they weren't rituals btw).

Proof?

Originally posted by appletonia
Maul and Opress perform things on a much lower scale, things that have been replicated by numerous people, and that have been vastly outstripped by numerous people. They in no way stand out as powerful Force Users.

Proof?

Originally posted by appletonia
ROTS Sidious is not the most powerful Sith to have ever lived; he's a relative chump next to the likes of Exar Kun.

Proof?

Originally posted by appletonia
Is it not possible that Maul, Dooku and Vader are just really weak?

They each have far more going for them by way of feats and accolades than do the likes of Qel-Droma. 😬

Ulic > Maul imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ulic > Maul imo.

Ulic would have stalemated Exar Kun in a fight that would have lasted hours while injured if it hadn't been interrupted (a fight in which Exar Kun would have presumably overpowered Ulic with the Force if he could have), and from the perspective of Aleema there was presumably no substantial difference in the darkside energies they were giving off as she was blown away by both of them. Plus, he was also more powerful than Nomi Sunrider who's one of the most powerful Jedi of all time. He's > all three bro.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They each have far more going for them by way of feats and accolades than do the likes of Qel-Droma. 😬

prove it whore

Originally posted by appletonia
Ulic would have stalemated Exar Kun in a fight that would have lasted hours while injured if it hadn't been interrupted (a fight in which Exar Kun would have presumably overpowered Ulic with the Force if he could have), and from the perspective of Aleema there was presumably no substantial difference in the darkside energies they were giving off as she was blown away by both of them. Plus, he was also more powerful than Nomi Sunrider who's one of the most powerful Jedi of all time. He's > all three bro.

Originally posted by appletonia
Didn't say anything abut Niman.

As I said, it's not about the arbitrary differences between sorcerers and warriors. It's that Exar has demonstrated the ability to dominate individuals or cause physical damage on a far greater scale, and has demonstrated things of a far more unprecedented nature (they weren't rituals btw). Maul and Opress perform things on a much lower scale, things that have been replicated by numerous people, and that have been vastly outstripped by numerous people. They in no way stand out as powerful Force Users.

Yet, still could not defeat Windu, who has no comparable feats and pretty much haven't done anything unprecedented to that point. In the same sense nothing puts Exar Kun above Maul or Opress.

ROTS Sidious is not the most powerful Sith to have ever lived; he's a relative chump next to the likes of Exar Kun. DE Sidious is a candidate for most powerful Sith Lord of all time, not ROTS.

"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful sith lord in history" - The new essential chronology.

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned." -DESB page 109

As you can see Yoda faced the most powerful Sith in history during RotS. In DE Sidious did not become most powerful, he was most powerful since RotS.

So you're arguing precognition and not speed? You might think that it should be impossible for a non-Force User to be able to challenge someone with precognitive abilities in a conventional fight, but the fact remains that canon as a whole disagrees with you. For a G-Canon example, refer to Obi-Wan's battle with Jango Fett in AOTC when they engage in a fist fight for a short period; Jango is at times able to block Obi-Wan's blows and land some of his own. If precog was the be all end all as you seem to believe, that wouldn't have been possible.

1. Jango is unarmed combat expert, Kenobi is not.
2. Kenobi would still outskill and knock Jango out but Jango happened to wear armor, so he shrugged off all the punches sustained.

In case with Uliq. Both him and the other Jedi are trained in lightsaber combat, there is no major skill difference between them. The only logical reason Jedi couldn't win is that he couldn't anticipate him. The only logical reason he engaged in lightsaber combat is that he couldn't use Force against him.

Originally posted by Arhael
there is no such thing as enhanced Force speed.

YouTube video

😐

Originally posted by Nephthys
YouTube video

😐

If they can move their legs super fast then why can't they move their arms and the rest of their bodies super fast? Them fighting normal people is explainable as peak human/alien capabilities being faster in Star Wars than they are in real life. It's like in comic books. A real person could never dodge a sniper bullet after its been fired, but normal, unenhanced people can do that in comics. A real person could never match a Jedi's speed. But in Star Wars all bets are off. Because it's fictional.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If they can move their legs super fast then why can't they move their arms and the rest of their bodies super fast? Them fighting normal people is explainable as peak human/alien capabilities being faster in Star Wars than they are in real life. It's like in comic books. A real person could never dodge a sniper bullet after its been fired, but normal, unenhanced people can do that in comics. A real person could never match a Jedi's speed. But in Star Wars all bets are off. Because it's fictional.

Force users evade blaster fire or put up a block before it is shot.
In comics it is more practical to show someone fire first, then image of a Jedi dodging it.

Here is another example with Opress before he became Force sensitive:
YouTube video

I meant comics as in Batman, bro.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jedi/Sith fight at the same speed as normal human

Lol. No.

Originally posted by Arhael
Pre Visla, Jango Fett, Yuuzhan Vong and many other characters demonstrated that Jedi are not really faster in actual combat.

Hell, your argument is akin to stating that Jedi not having force abilities since, hey, Obi-Wan didn't just levitate Vizla into the air and slam him into unconsciousness three seconds into their fight.