Originally posted by appletonia
If he even used Niman, it was before he created his saberstaff form, with his regular lightsaber.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vodo never dealt with saber stuff. Unknown style and lack of knowledge how to defend against it played against him. Prove he was unparalled in mastery of Niman. He invented it. The style was refined since.How is post-DE Luke relevant? They never dueled.
Also he defeated him earlier with Jar'kai(a very well known technique) as a Padawan...
Because no one except Krayt ever displayed skill even close, the Niman poster-boy as seen in FOUR sourcebooks is Exar Kun.
Because he watched him duel others and called his skill 'quaint'.
Originally posted by appletonia
Well that disproves it... 🙄Mace Windu was not simply making a statement about what is better between the creator of a form and the master of a form, but specifically what was greater between "the creator of a killing form" and "the master of the classic form" in a philosophical discussion about the nature of their chosen forms. The point he was making was that the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu were more dependent on their forms due to the fact that they answered specific weaknesses that they possessed, whereas Obi-Wan possessed no weaknesses that he would need to rely on a form to answer. This was also a discussion tailored around a hypothetical battle against Grievous, and Mace Windu was saying that due to the nature of Grievous's ability to mimic an opponent's form, the simplicity of Soresu was such that Grievous's ability to mimic it wouldn't be quite as effective, and what made Obi-Wan so perfectly suited for Grievous was that his understated ability with Soresu transcended the functional complexity of any form in that particular scenario. Nice try though.
A learner of something will never be more familiar with its workings than the person who created it (provided he did so knowingly, and hasn't forgotten aspects of it); at best you can equal the creator's familiarity but that entails attaining nothing short of perfection and is certainly nothing the standard master can be said to possess.
That's is incorrect, the weapon absolutely existed. Exar Kun simply developed a variant saberstaff and his own unique form of combat.
That's what all the evidence points to. While Maul and Opress perform street level telekinesis Exar Kun has been able to use the Force to dominate thousands of individuals at once, and Ulic was able to remain competetive with him in a fight.
Which is clearly a different condition to the one Ulic faced, as you yourself note that she could still use the darkside. What you're describing, being invisible in the Force but at the same time being able
to use the darkside, is not at all similar to what happened to Ulic. It's made pretty clear that losing your connection to the Force doesn't make you invisible in it.
It is virtually impossible for a non-sensitive to keep up with a notable Force user in combat. Mandalorians that use lots of dirty tricks and gadgets don't count. There is no way for Uliq being able to fight evenly a Force user, unless that user couldn't sense him as well.
And if you imply that the "notable jedi" could sense Uliq in the Force, you indirectly label him a moron for simply not rag-dolling Uliq around like Desann did to Kyle Katarn.
Vodo used a staff himself it just wasn't a lightsaber, nice lowball attempt though.Also he defeated him earlier with Jar'kai(a very well known technique) as a Padawan...
Because no one except Krayt ever displayed skill even close, the Niman poster-boy as seen in FOUR sourcebooks is Exar Kun.
Because he watched him duel others and called his skill 'quaint'.
And if defeating Vodo is such an impressive feat, fine. Kenobi easily counters it with far more impressive feats against Opress/Maul and Anakin.
Originally posted by Arhael
Any martial art evolves after being introduced. Claiming that inventor of a style will be better than all future practitioners that learned evolved/refined version of the same style is absurd.
My point was that creating a form is indivative of a comparatively greater understanding of that form (as it was when he created it) then simply mastering a form (as it was when he mastered it). Whether the forms substantially progressed is a seperate issue but you have not provided a particularly compelling argument that they did, whereas the simple fact that they had existed for thousands of years, in times of both war and peace, would suggest that there wasn't exctly all that much room for improvement. There were also no major changes to the manner in which Jedi/Sith operated or the technological or martial capabilities of their adversaries in future generations, so there's nothing to suggest that the forms would have had to have been substantially adapted to changes in the times.
As it stands, Exar Kun was the creator of a form that was stated to be superior to the existing lightsaber forms at the time, and Maul was simply the master of a form that you haven't exactly established was noticeably more advanced than the forms of Exar's time.
He did not invent a form. He just learned to fight with saber staff, which is nothing extraordinary.
That is quite incorrect, he did.
That does not prove anything. Sidious did all sort of things that Luke/Mace/Yoda couldn't dream off, doesn't mean he is better than them.
This isn't a simple matter of there being qualitative differences in the things they respectively have done or can do, it's a matter of Exar simply performing at a quantifiably higher level than they have and repeatedly doing things that are quite unprecedented where they never do anything particularly outside the norm. Whether it comes to brilliance with a lightsaber or the scale of their powers, Exar Kun vastly outstrips them.
No, she couldn't be invisible in the Force and use darkside at the same time. She was absent in the Force. Darkside was breaking Force severing and at that point Luke could sense her.
Either way it sounds like a different technique/condition, as the Sever Force ability has been well documented and it's made very clear that it is simply their ability to use the Force that is diminished.
It is virtually impossible for a non-sensitive to keep up with a notable Force user in combat. Mandalorians that use lots of dirty tricks and gadgets don't count. There is no way for Uliq being able to fight evenly a Force user, unless that user couldn't sense him as well.
There are numerous occasions where a notable Force User is bested in combat by a non-Force User without the use of tricks or gadgets or extreme circumstances; refer to a young Malak getting bested by a Mandalorian in a conventional duel in the KOTOR comics as an example. It's never been established that even notably powerful (but not extraordinarily powerful) Jedi/Sith can easily overwhelm a non-Force User with speed alone. It's an advantage but not necessarily a determining one. Technique can make up the difference.
And surely Sylvar would be able to use this blitz worthy speed, whether she could sense Ulic or not? Jedi rely on their ability to sense things in the Force, but it doesn't make them blind to their other senses.
And if you imply that the "notable jedi" could sense Uliq in the Force, you indirectly label him a moron for simply not rag-dolling Uliq around like Desann did to Kyle Katarn.
Or maybe an enraged animalistic warrior would simply rather have beaten him down in a more pysically intimate manner that a lightsaber duel allows? Or numerous other reasons?
Originally posted by appletonia
As it stands, Exar Kun was the creator of a form that was stated to be superior to the existing lightsaber forms at the time
Where?
Originally posted by appletonia
Whether it comes to brilliance with a lightsaber or the scale of their powers, Exar Kun vastly outstrips them.
Proof?
Originally posted by appletonia
That I do not know or I would have provided it.
So should we assume facts not in evidence as a general practice now or only when it concerns characters/eras that the general public doesn't care about (e.g. Exar Kun, Bane, and all your favorite characters)?
Originally posted by appletonia
Scale of powers? Freezing the senate, draining the Massassi, energy blasts the size of small houses that can disintegrate metal.
And brilliance with a lightsaber?
So should we assume facts not in evidence as a general practice now or only when it concerns characters/eras that the general public doesn't care about (e.g. Exar Kun, Bane, and all your favorite characters)?
The facts are in evidence, I just don't know where the evidence is! It's up to you whether you believe me or not, it was somebody called Advent at some other forum that I first recall bringing it up (and at the time I did verify it for myself from some sourcebook or another).
But as I said to dmb, whether it was superior to the forms or not, he was still able to use it to dominate a centuries old battlemaster, which is either a reflection of the fact that he was capable of creating a very advanced form, or was just that damn good that he was able to use an ineffectual form to dominate a centuries old battlemaster (in which case you can only imagine how good he would have been when he fought Ulic and used a credible form).
Either way, stalemating even an injured Ulic Qel-droma, or netting multiple wins against that same centuries old battlemaster while still a padawan (years before the comics he appears in), suggest that his talent/ability vastly outstrips the likes of Maul's.
Originally posted by appletonia
The facts are in evidence, I just don't know where the evidence is! It's up to you whether you believe me or not, it was somebody called Advent at some other forum that I first recall bringing it up (and at the time I did verify it for myself from some sourcebook or another).
You don't seem like a particularly trustworthy fellow. There's something shifty about you.
But as I said to dmb, whether it was superior to the forms or not, he was still able to use it to dominate a centuries old battlemaster, which is either a reflection of the fact that he was capable of creating a very advanced form, or was just that damn good that he was able to use an ineffectual form to dominate a centuries old battlemaster (in which case you can only imagine how good he would have been when he fought Ulic and used a credible form).
Or perhaps that "centuries old battlemaster" just wasn't that good in the grand scheme of things? Or perhaps a reflection of superior Force talent and not necessarily a product of prodigious technical aptitude?
Originally posted by appletonia
Either way, stalemating even an injured Ulic Qel-droma, or netting multiple wins against that same centuries old battlemaster while still a padawan (years before the comics he appears in), suggest that his talent/ability vastly outstrips the likes of Maul's.
Maul is accredited as high end master of multiple forms and is consistently referred to as one of the most skilled warriors in Sith history. In light of that, your assertions that stalemating Qel-Droma makes one vastly superior to Maul seem pretty empty, especially when there's little to nothing by way of evidence to suggest that that's actually the case.