Originally posted by Sancty
It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them, what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled. if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.
Originally posted by Digi
I'm pretty sure this logic peters out by late 20s. It's a maturation thing, not a societally systemic one.
Anyways if you have to keep bugging someone to make time for you, they're probably not interested.. maybe they feel uncomfortable telling you directly.
Originally posted by SanctyThen they're cowards and not worth your time, IMO.
It's both IMO, but yeah, I think most people grow out of it, and start thinking about other people's perspectiveAnyways if you have to keep bugging someone to make time for you, they're probably not interested.. maybe they feel uncomfortable telling you directly.
Originally posted by Sancty
It's really odd to me that women are expected to date any man that is nice to them,
I don't think anyone in this thread has conveyed that expectation.
Originally posted by Sancty
what if she's just not attracted to this "nice" guy?
That's (attractiveness) very nebulous and hard to define. A gal will literally say she's not attracted to one dude and say she's attracted to another when another gal will say the opposite. And then, for some reason, her opinions will change even if she has had no interactions with the dudes in question. Attraction to males is not as concrete as attraction to females. There seems to be more...mmm...not sure what it is...but, for some reason, "male attractiveness" is much more difficult to define than female. This is not my opinion: this is the results of lots of research in sexology. There are usually 2 things that can define a "close to objective" male attractiveness: facial symmetry and masculine facial features. Even this can vary with females depending on where they are in their ovulation cycle. Then there is the issue that extremely ugly men (men that parents would shit their pants if they found them talking to their kids on the street) are found highly attractive by females due to their popularity and/or success. In fact, one study showed that men who were labeled (they were made up labels) with high-paying and/or highly prestigious jobs, were found much more attractive. One of the control groups for this study was a "baseline" of those same men that had no labels. Men that were highly rated in the control group got downgraded, heavily, to below average if they had shitty jobs and/or poorly viewed jobs. Crazy...
Men? It is much easier to determine what they find attractive. And it is nearly universal for both males and females (meaning, females will rate the same women attractive as men).
What I am saying is, a gal can find a gent unattractive one day and then find him attractive the next (literally). I think this also means that there is hope for men who are willing to admit that they need to alter their behaviors to make themselves more attractive to women.
Originally posted by Sancty
and tbh I think a lot of guys that complain about not getting a girlfriend despite being so "nice" are extremely entitled.
I hear about this all the time on the internet but I have yet to meet this fabled man. Most of them lack confidence and do not feel that they are entitled, at all: just the opposite. The feel that they are not entitled to anything and get downtrodden about relationships. They literally give up.
Originally posted by Sancty
if you're actually a nice person you should understand when a friend is not interested in you, move on and support their choices.
When that gal-pal describes her ideal man, to a the letter, a man she has relegated to "uninterested", clearly, she just needs to pull her head out of her ass and see what is right in front of her. If you're truly a friend, you won't keep supporting your gal-pals shitty choices in sexist assholes. Instead, a real friend will point out, "What about Brian? He's nice, educated, quiet, and I've never heard him utter a single sexist sentence. He also can hold down a job and he gets along with his coworkers. Send him a message...tell him Dominic sent you."
Originally posted by dadudemon
I hear about this all the time on the internet but I have yet to meet this fabled man. Most of them lack confidence and do not feel that they are entitled, at all: just the opposite. The feel that they are not entitled to anything and get downtrodden about relationships. They literally give up.
I'm sure that happens sometimes too. But a lot of the people who lament that these girls they are into are only dating assholes, are often assholes themselves in my experience. Often they don't treat the woman they say they like with respect at all, and just delude themselves into thinking "I'm so much nicer than her boyfriend", etc.
Originally posted by dadudemon
When that gal-pal describes her ideal man, to a the letter, a man she has relegated to "uninterested", clearly, she just needs to pull her head out of her ass and see what is right in front of her. If you're truly a friend, you won't keep supporting your gal-pals shitty choices in sexist assholes. Instead, a real friend will point out, "What about Brian? He's nice, educated, quiet, and I've never heard him utter a single sexist sentence. He also can hold down a job and he gets along with his coworkers. Send him a message...tell him Dominic sent you."
Oh yeah, you can definitely suggest that. And if she then says "Oh, I like Brian as a friend, but I'm not into him romantically", you'll also be a buddy and not continue to push what you think she wants.
But even if she doesn't go into her reasons, perhaps she'll just say "Hmm, yeah maybe" and then not do it, you should respect that she makes this decision herself, perhaps she's not comfortable being so straightforward about these matters with you in particular, or just in general. Women are not usually brought up to be very outspoken about their own wishes, and so many aren't.
Getting away from the nice guy talk.
There is such a wide spectrum of stories about various degrees on this subject that making one absolute claim on the matter isn't taking the whole into account.
But I will remark on what the OP has said.
At this point it sounds like you aren't getting what you want out of the relationship. I don't know if that is just friendship or more but you should talk about it with the person in question.
Perhaps they are only saying they will hang out with you because they want to be nice to you. Or perhaps they have every attention of doing what they say but something does come up.
Point is talk about it and if you don't like what you hear then perhaps it is time to move on from the friendship and relationship and put your energy into someone else that will give you want.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm sure that happens sometimes too.
I'm sure it happens, as well. But I have never observed this type in "the wild" before. I think it is generally used as a strawman personality invented for these types of conversations, though. I saw this saw strawman pop-up on reddit yesterday.
Originally posted by Bardock42
But a lot of the people who lament that these girls they are into are only dating assholes, are often assholes themselves in my experience.
Lamenting yourself because you genuinely think you're a loser and lamenting girls are 2 different things. We are not talking about the same people, then.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Often they don't treat the woman they say they like with respect at all, and just delude themselves into thinking "I'm so much nicer than her boyfriend", etc.
Again, I've never seen this type. A guy who I think is very nice, lacks confidence in himself, is not sexist, is educated, is stable, and likes a girl who does not like him back is not a man who does not treat a woman with respect and/or is sexist. These are not the same people. You are definitely talking about someone else. Perhaps I am blind to these types because I just label them as "assholes." I definitely do not label those types as "nice guys who lack confidence."
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh yeah, you can definitely suggest that. And if she then says "Oh, I like Brian as a friend, but I'm not into him romantically", you'll also be a buddy and not continue to push what you think she wants.
I really don't know any gal-pal of mine who would say something like that. None of them ever have when I make suggestions. Most of them are happy to get a suggestion from a trusted male friend.
Also, I am using "gal-pal" because English lacks the word for "A female friend of a male where it is mutually understood as strictly platonic." I do not intend for the label to be sexist but I feel it is borderline sexist unless I provide my definition. I think you knew how I was using it but I wanted to make it clear.
Originally posted by Bardock42
But even if she doesn't go into her reasons, perhaps she'll just say "Hmm, yeah maybe" and then not do it, you should respect that she makes this decision herself, perhaps she's not comfortable being so straightforward about these matters with you in particular, or just in general. Women are not usually brought up to be very outspoken about their own wishes, and so many aren't.
What do you take me for? One of those *sshole types that does not respect women's wishes? 313
So now can we get back to the actual topic? Women who continually self-sabotage by dating assholes? Oh, it's because it is in their nature:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201310/why-do-women-fall-bad-boys
Some women, to their credit, are able to think more pragmatically and shuck off their attraction to these *sshole types. They reason that this person is abusive and a relationship is not a good idea. I think they should teach young women, in schools, about mature and healthy relationships. I also think they should teach young men that same things. It should be part of a complete package of sex education (which includes safe-sex and abstinence information (such as how abstinence is the absolute best way to avoid getting pregnant or STDs but that it is almost completely impractical in the real world)).
Obviously we are not talking about the same people, like I said, I think there may be a small percentage of nice, shy guys that don't approach women and feel bad about that, but the number of ******* guys who think they are overlooked, when really they are just obvious assholes and not friends, both off and online, seems much larger, at least in my experience.
Also, using "a female friend" is perfectly fine and much less stupid than "gal-pal".
The trope of women always choosing assholes that aren't good for them, is, imo, mostly fictional, btw.
So I said I wasn't going to get into the argument but I'm tired and slightly looking for a fight and decided to do so in here.
So on the basis of this topic I would like to point out as eloquently as possible is the following.
Yes there is probably a percentage of a$$hole guys that try to pretend to be nice to a woman to get into their pants and that is wrong.
Yes there is probably a percentage of nice guys that are just too shy to speak up and they are hoping their actions will speak for themselves which is alright to a point.
There are probably nice guys that have grown up feeling entitled because they are nice which isn't right either.
Yes there are a$$hole women who find a nice guy and like to exploit and manipulate them which isn't right.
Yes there are a percentage women that don't want a relationship with a guy but they still feel entitled to that guys friendship which is wrong.
Yes there is probably even apercentage of women who do date a$$holes then complain about it even if they have nice guy friends that don't want to date the women but at the very least should give those women more of a guide line as to what to look for. Hey both sides are right imagine that a scenario that works out for both arguments.
Also there are percentages where some or all of the scenarios above are happening simultaneously together and probably some scenarios I didn't even bring up.
And guess what there are percentages of the scenarios above where the gender roles are switched.
So my point is this I bet everyone here is generally just drawing from personal experience which means no here as a right to preemptively decide which scenario is applicable or has any hard fact to support your arguments anyway.
So how about this instead of using your bias to rush to a conclusion on what could be a complex scenario far beyond simple good or bad how about you either try to objective and offer solid advice to a person that could be need while not rushing to judgement or if you don't think you can do that shut up because you're not being helpful to the situation at hand.
And definitely arguing over who is right and who is wrong on something that could be multiple scenarios should just be done away in this thread all together.
So I beg and implore the people of this thread to be productive instead of a judgmental nuisance who isn't helping.
XKCD is hilarious at all times. At any rate, this guy made three threads that are exactly the same complaining about these women in his life. He has disregarded all constructive advice (I know, because I gave him some in each thread), as such these threads are just vehicles for him to vent, and we don't have to indulge that. A discussion of what I view as the underlying societal expectations and roles that make him behave the way he does seems considerably more interesting and constructive.
Originally posted by Newjak
Yes there are a percentage women that don't want a relationship with a guy but they still feel entitled to that guys friendship which is wrong.
What? Why can't they just be friends? If the person who is romantically interested can't accept their friends wishes, they need to decide whether to stay friends or stop talking to them.
Anyways my posts were addressing the general "women only date assholes!" "friendzone"-esque bullshit that was coming up.
The OP is way too vague IMO, he just makes these threads to complain without giving enough details for anyone to actually help (and even if he did, this is an awful place to look for it)
Fair enough I did not know he has a habit of tgis. but the problem becomes whose version of societal norms do we use? What is truly the societal norm? Personally and this is just opinion I think both can play a game with this and that everyone will deal with some version of it that can skew their perceptive. Overall it should just be a learning experience for how to move on with life and evolve how you choose handle personal relationships.
And I do personally think trying to generalize the situation into one single perspective cab create resentment and could be harmful.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, using "a female friend" is perfectly fine and much less stupid than "gal-pal".
I was told by a feminist professor, in college, that referring to casual female friends as "female" is sexist because it is a cold label that distances the person from the lady in question. She also advised against using "girl" as it implies young and perhaps immature. She was okay with "gal" in a casual or even light-hearted context. She was okay with "lady", as well, but said some people use it to be mean as well (such as "Oh, THAT lady..."😉 She said to use "woman" where possible, even when referring to teenage women as it is a label of respect and maturity. Lastly, she did not buy into the "woman" label as being negative because some women view the term as indicating they are old (because she viewed this opinion as a negative social norm brought about by sexism against women...the stereotype being that "older female humans have less worth than their younger more attractive members"😉. I am trying to be more mindful of how I use labels that could be seen as insensitive or even sexist. As I get older, I can no longer rely on ignorance of youth to justify poorly thought-out labels.
Originally posted by Bardock42
The trope of women always choosing assholes that aren't good for them, is, imo, mostly fictional, btw.
It's okay: I see it often enough in the real world that I know it isn't a fictitious trope. Did you read the article I linked? Also, I think what you state here may be an inadvertent strawman of my position. I have never held the position that these women "always" (as in, 100% of the time) choose assholes for companions.
Edit - I should also note that I live in Oklahoma and my experiences are going to be tainted by this experience. Oklahoma is very far behind the rest of the world when it comes to gender roles and progressive views of family. Women are treated with much more sexism here than you would view in other places because there are a f*ckton of sexist men living here. I should not have to point out that Oklahoma is the reddest state in the US...but it is as of the last 2 elections. We have some growing up to do, here. Lots of assholes in Oklahoma...