How to deal with women who say they are too busy to make time for you.

I think looking at the individual is definitely one useful thing to do, and in that manner you are right, obviously as people anyone can play games, anyone can be abusive, anyone can be a terrible friend.

But when we start talking about "women are like this" and "men are like this" we make completely different statements, and these statements should be dissected by themselves. There is a common trope that says "women choose to date assholes", but to just lazily accept that is a mistake, imo. Particular in this guys case, where he is obviously obsessive, and feels entitled to the affections of multiple women, we should use this stereotype to absolve him from any responsibility in his relationships.

Originally posted by Sancty
What? Why can't they just be friends? If the person who is romantically interested can't accept their friends wishes, they need to decide whether to stay friends or stop talking to them.

Anyways my posts were addressing the general "women only date assholes!" "friendzone"-esque bullshit that was coming up.

The OP is way too vague IMO, he just makes these threads to complain without giving enough details for anyone to actually help (and even if he did, this is an awful place to look for it)

In both cases the person trying to exploit the other is wrong.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think looking at the individual is definitely one useful thing to do, and in that manner you are right, obviously as people anyone can play games, anyone can be abusive, anyone can be a terrible friend.

But when we start talking about "women are like this" and "men are like this" we make completely different statements, and these statements should be dissected by themselves. There is a common trope that says "women choose to date assholes", but to just lazily accept that is a mistake, imo. Particular in this guys case, where he is obviously obsessive, and feels entitled to the affections of multiple women, we should use this stereotype to absolve him from any responsibility in his relationships.

Originally posted by Newjak
I didn't say they couldn't that is a perfectly posible scenario. I was simply addressing a different scentric where a woman will get mean and nasty to a guy who does try to stop talking to them because they decided just being friends isn't enough. I've also observed women try andd guilt nice guys to staying their friends even though they know that the guy wants. Now it is up to the guy to walk away from that just like a woman should walk away from a guy not respecting her wishes or trying to use her in a way she doesn't want.

In both cases the person trying to exploit the other is wrong.

I think I follow what you mean. That sort of situation is tough, but at the same time, I dont see women "guilting" men into being friends with them. In a way, that seems almost fair. I've known guys who've reacted pretty much exactly as you've described. Sort of like this

1. A guy sees a girl he is attracted to and begins to like them, and wish to date them.
2. The guy and girl begin to talk and interact, a friendship/possible relationship is established.
3. The girl realizes she does not in fact like this person in a romantic sense, but as a friend.
4. The guy doesn't want to be friends with her. He just wanted to date her. And thus, tells her so and walks away.

Isn't that dickish behavior? What did a guy like about this girl in the first place that's ONLY date worthy and NOT friendship worthy?

When you described it, Newjak, I was kinda sad for both hypothetical people. But on reflection, isn't that really childish of a guy to react in that way?

I think like situations depends on the intention and even than there could degrees. Like maybe the person doesn't completely cut off contact but decided that they don't want same level of contact. As for being childish I think it depends on the person.

I think life learning to deal with relationships which includes friendships is important. Even more important is learning how you as individual deal with them.

I think a person who is specifically looking for romantic interests and doesn't find is perfectly okay deciding friendship isn't enough to stay around.

Or perhaps the person not wanting to be just friends is doing it because they have developed strong feelings and they know they will slowly build resentment over time because of it. That person leaving I don't think 8s being childish. Perhaps all they decided is that they have limited time and they need put their energy into something they want.

I think being childish in this scenario is generally those that expect another person to do something or those people that expect their feelings to be con sidereal and respected without doing so in return.

I've also chosen to use gender neutral terms because the genders can be swapped in a lot of these possibilities and this helps to keep it frim a them vs us argument.

Originally posted by Bardock42
XKCD is hilarious at all times. At any rate, this guy made three threads that are exactly the same complaining about these women in his life. He has disregarded all constructive advice (I know, because I gave him some in each thread), as such these threads are just vehicles for him to vent, and we don't have to indulge that. A discussion of what I view as the underlying societal expectations and roles that make him behave the way he does seems considerably more interesting and constructive.

👆

Originally posted by Newjak
Or perhaps the person not wanting to be just friends is doing it because they have developed strong feelings and they know they will slowly build resentment over time because of it. That person leaving I don't think 8s being childish. Perhaps all they decided is that they have limited time and they need put their energy into something they want.

Yes, this is good reason. I think it is more mature for the gentleman to walk away than to keep previously romantic interests around as gal-pals. But I have seen gentlemen later pick up where the left off by simply sticking around as a "friend" and then taking the correct actions at the right time to make things work (young Mormon men are notorious for doing this and it is a running joke in singles branches). That takes quite a bit of patience...and is borderline creepy. That whole time, he was just plotting his swooping...pretending to be a friend. 5 years later into a marriage: "Remember when you wanted to 'just be friends', Julie? Haha, I waited until the right time to start things back up. I meticulously planned and prepped you so that you'd want to date me, again."

Also, I think expecting a previous romantic interest to stick around as "friends" is not only selfish, but it seems unhealthy...narcissistic, perhaps? Additionally, it is usually a bad-idea to keep a list of semi-frequently, previously romantic interests, around if you plan to continue to date (but if you decide/realize that you're asexual, that doesn't present a problem...usually) other people.

But, there is something else to consider: Some gals use the "let's be friends" card to be safe. As one gal explained it to me, some men get very angry/wroth and abusive if you are direct about not being interested so they have to let them down, gently. That's scary. No woman should feel like they have to do that.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Also, I think expecting a previous romantic interest to stick around as "friends" is not only selfish, but it seems unhealthy...narcissistic, perhaps? Additionally, it is usually a bad-idea to keep a list of semi-frequently, previously romantic interests, around if you plan to continue to date (but if you decide/realize that you're asexual, that doesn't present a problem...usually) other people..

Really? How come you would describe it a selfish? How can it be any more selfish than saying "Well if you don't want just me in your life than you can't have any of me at all ?"

Isn't that even more pathetically narcissistic? Or at least the same.

Let's be honest here you could probably label all this talk ad selfish if you wanted. Truth be told everyone needs to be somewhat selfish from time to time.

But once again I don't equate it to childish. Now there probably exists times where someone takes it far. Like someone saying date me or we are no longer friends. That's not trying to make a personal decision that is respectful of the other person and good for yourself. That is someone trying to hold another person ransom which is wrong.

Originally posted by Quincy
Really? How come you would describe it a selfish? How can it be any more selfish than saying "Well if you don't want just me in your life than you can't have any of me at all ?"

Selfish:

"lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."

Example: "I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life as a friend regardless of their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Narcissism comes into play as such:

"I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life because their adoration feeds me. I do not care about their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Keep in mind that this is not gender specific. 🙂

I think a person should be allowed to not waste time on someone he or she does not want to waste time without being labeled "a dick." "You're a dick for not spending time with me, as friends, when you previously have made it quite clear that you had a romantic interest in me, not a platonic one." O rly?

Also, I see men put girls into this "friendly-acquaintance and pseudo-romantic" category, stringing them along, so they have a ready-made f*ck-buddy at a moment's notice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Selfish:

"lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."

Example: "I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life as a friend regardless of their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Narcissism comes into play as such:

"I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life because their adoration feeds me. I do not care about their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

Do you consider that the person who wishes to simply remain friends with someone who wants to date them MORE selfish and Narcisstic than somebody who refuses to be friends with someone who won't date them?

Originally posted by Quincy
Do you consider that the person who wishes to simply remain friends with someone who wants to date them MORE selfish and Narcisstic than somebody who refuses to be friends with someone who won't date them?

I consider the rhetoric of this question to represent a strawman perspective of my position so I will disregard a direct address of this question, altogether.

Instead, I will state a second time: I think a person should be allowed to not waste time on someone he or she does not want to waste time without being labeled "a dick." Also, the selfishness comes into play in the following way:

Selfish:

"lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."

Example: "I do not like this person in a romantic manner but this person likes me in a romantic manner. I want this person to remain in my life as a friend regardless of their feelings or how being around me might make them feel."

A person should not be expected to "just be friends" with someone they do not want to be friends with and they should be allowed to move on to other romantic relationships without being considered "a dick" for making a mature emotional decisions.

Also, your question, itself, is malformed. You either intentionally or unintentionally moved the goalposts. You used the word "remain." "Let's just be friends" does not mean the same thing "let's remain as friends." If you were friends, prior, then someone or both started the relationship in a romantic direction, and then someone wanted to not take it that direction, the option to "remain as friends" is open. Regardless, no one should get a "dick" label if they decide to end the friendship. Ending the relationship, altogether, is not dickish. It is how you go about doing so that makes you a dick.

Lastly, your question is adding motives to the situation I was describing that were not there, before. This is also a strawman. You stated, "...than somebody who refuses to be friends with someone who won't date them?" You're adding a stipulation that I did not. Since when did I state that this hypothetical person is "refusing" to be friends? Did I not state or imply exactly what I meant when I agreed with Newjack? He said the following:

"Or perhaps the person not wanting to be just friends is doing it because they have developed strong feelings and they know they will slowly build resentment over time because of it. That person leaving I don't think 8s being childish. Perhaps all they decided is that they have limited time..."

That's not the same thing as "refusing to be friends."

If you want to talk about degrees of selfishness, be my guest: that's not a topic I have entertained.

TL : DR - You're moving the goalposts as I haven't been talking about "remaining" friends and people who "refuse" to be friends. I'm pretty sure you're familiar enough with my argumentation style that you knew something like that would not work with me.

Edit - I was inclined to reword your question for you to keep it more contextual:

Do you consider the person who suggests being friends with a someone who wants to pursue a romantic relationship to be MORE selfish and narcissistic than somebody who decides they cannot be friends with someone they want to pursue a romantic relationship?

The answer to that question is: "It is unanswerable because specifics are missing that allow a value judgment to be made on the question. What are the motivations for the person to want become friends? What are the motivations for the person who decides that being friends cannot work for them?"

Hey man, I do appreciate the length that you reponded there, but my question isn't like, an attempt to discredit you or calling you out on anything if that's what you are worried about.

If you think my question doesn't have anything to do with whatever point you are making, I'll concede. I'm not trying to trick ya.

It's just, when you described someone who wants to be friends with someone who wants to date them as "selfish" and the thought of wanting that as "narcissistic" it sounded to me like you were implying that the only person that was acting immaturely is the person preferring to be friends with someone. Is that the case?

I'm not adding any other motives at this point or anything like that, I'm just asking your opinion.

If it is at all selfish/arrogant to want to be friends with someone who likes you, then it is at all selfish/arrogant to NOT be friends with somebody for not dating you?

And I'm sorry man, I'm not familiar with your argumentation style, and I wasn't aware that we were arguing.

edit:

I saw you're latest edit, and I guess I'll stop asking you then. You've already said that a person can be selfish for wanting to be friends with someone who wants to date them. But are you like, refusing to say it's possible for it to be the other way around?

Originally posted by Quincy
Hey man, I do appreciate the length that you reponded there, but my question isn't like, an attempt to discredit you or calling you out on anything if that's what you are worried about.

If you think my question doesn't have anything to do with whatever point you are making, I'll concede. I'm not trying to trick ya.

It's just, when you described someone who wants to be friends with someone who wants to date them as "selfish" and the thought of wanting that as "narcissistic" it sounded to me like you were implying that the only person that was acting immaturely is the person preferring to be friends with someone. Is that the case?

I'm not adding any other motives at this point or anything like that, I'm just asking your opinion.

If it is at all selfish/arrogant to want to be friends with someone who likes you, then it is at all selfish/arrogant to NOT be friends with somebody for not dating you?

Newjack, I think, already pounded it into our heads that there are so many different scenarios or kinds of people in these situations that a generic example is very difficult to discuss. Generally, I would recommend people to not "just be friends" if one of the people in a relationship want to cut off the romantic interests in the relationship. Unless you have lots of time to be friends with every previously failed relationship, of course. I say the best course of action, long-term, is not not keep a dynamic list of friends as you move from relationship to relationship. I am sure future boyfriends/girlfriends will appreciate you not being "good friends" with your exes.

But there could be other elements to these situations where my general recommendation is not the best solution. For example, using your previous question, what if they were friends before the romantic pursuance started? Well, in that case, it depends on how emotionally mature both parties are and how readily they can put that awkwardness behind them. Sure, they can remain friends! They should if they can, in fact. They were friends before, so why not? There should not be any hard and fast rule on how to treat these situations. But we should be readily aware of the motivations and circumstances that surround these situations. Some people are being selfish by wanting to be friends. Some are definitely being narcissistic. And some are afraid of the other person losing their shit (I used the example of one of my gal-pals stating she is afraid of how some men blow-up when she lets them down so she uses the friend line).

To answer your question, directly:

Originally posted by Quincy
It's just, when you described someone who wants to be friends with someone who wants to date them as "selfish" and the thought of wanting that as "narcissistic" it sounded to me like you were implying that the only person that was acting immaturely is the person preferring to be friends with someone. Is that the case?

That depends on the situation. As I stated in my edit: What are the motivations for the person to want become friends? What are the motivations for the person who decides that being friends cannot work for them?

If we have the answers to those questions, we can determine if a person refused to be friends in a dickish manner or if the person wanting to be friends is doing so for selfish or even narcissistic reasons. If you (or anyone) decides you want to be "just friends" with someone who has been pursuing you romantically, genuinely assess why you think being "just friends" is what you want. Do you really want it? Are you doing it for selfish or narcissistic reasons? Are you trying to avoid the person from raging on you? Do you genuinely value their friendship or think that they would be excellent friends? What does that person think or feel about my suggestion to be friends?

My comments to Newjack, whose comments were regarding your comments, indirectly addressed a statement about people "being a dick" when not wanting to be friends. There are many sides to this and not everyone is being a dick when they decline being friends. This was the motivations or intentions behind my statements with the narcissism and selfishness: there are dicks, selfish assholes, and narcissists all over the place. Not everyone is being a dick with action xyz, basically.

Originally posted by Quincy
And I'm sorry man, I'm not familiar with your argumentation style, and I wasn't aware that we were arguing.

But, you've been a witness to some of the most lengthy and nuanced arguments on KMC in the Anime/Manga section and even quoted portions of my argumentative posts. I do expect people to remember everything when that is unrealistic. My apologies. At the least, I thought my KMC reputation as an "argumentative *sshole" would have been enough.

Originally posted by Quincy
But are you like, refusing to say it's possible for it to be the other way around?

Not at all. But I would not consider that person who is throwing a tantrum (the person in your hypothetical that refuses to be a friend) to be, generally, selfish. It is difficult to throw a selfish label on it. It really depends on their motivations for that tantrum. Is it because they do not care about their love-interest's feelings and just want self-gratification? Or is it because they cannot handle rejection too well and are highly insecure? From my experience, they don't want to be friends because it is too painful for them/they cannot get over it so they move on to save everyone the pain of being an emotional bag of snot. Outside of 80s high school movies, I have never witnesses this archetype you describe: the person that, for selfish reasons, refuses to be friends with someone that has rejected them.

You're right! I knew those donuts looked ominous!

You're well spoken, here. I guess my opinion stems from my own experiences and stuff, but I think I can paint a picture from your perspective too.

It just sucks that people are like this at all, ya know?

I like Quincy. Not only because he's a debaser, and I want to grow up to be one.

Well, I dont know about you, Bardock. But I am Un Chien Andalusia

Originally posted by Quincy
You're right! I knew those donuts looked ominous!

You're well spoken, here. I guess my opinion stems from my own experiences and stuff, but I think I can paint a picture from your perspective too.

It just sucks that people are like this at all, ya know?

I see many more assholes than "mean women" in the real world. Seems that there are assholes everywhere. My experiences are slanted against men and they shouldn't be. I should just go live somewhere else. I want to move to a much colder place. Tired of this hot and humid weather.

I just wish I could smack the women I know in my life who keep falling into the "assholes trap" and get abused, once again.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I like Quincy. Not only because he's a debaser, and I want to grow up to be one.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You may be joking but this is actually much closer to the truth.

Stop giving a **** about it.