Speciesist reason for not wanting Maul

In old EU, it was said that Palpatine and Dooku were specieist and humanocentric, hating alien species and thinking humans were superior. The Rebels visual guide reconfirms that the Empire was xenophobic. Anyway, when Maul came back on the scene, Palpatine made it clear that he had no desire to have him as an apprentice, despite the latter then capturing Grievous and Dooku. I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku; yet Palpatine did not pit him against Dooku for the title of apprentice. Maul proved to be as smart and manipulative as Dooku, albeit perhaps slightly more crude. Why not have him return to the fold? Because Palpatine had found a fellow human that was almost as powerful, and that was good enough, and certaintly better than some stinky Zabrak.

The fact that Dooku was already well established as the head of the CIS certainly made Sidious's decision there easier IMO

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Maul had NO intent of returning to Sidious's side by that point.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The fact that Dooku was already well established as the head of the CIS certainly made Sidious's decision there easier IMO

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Maul had NO intent of returning to Sidious's side by that point.

👆 dmb just summed it all up.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku;

Nah. Dooku was still more powerful than Maul. And the gap wasn't small. It was significant.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku;

What gives you that impression?

I mean, Grievous was able to give a somewhat-tired SoD Maul a good fight.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
In old EU, it was said that Palpatine and Dooku were specieist and humanocentric, hating alien species and thinking humans were superior. The Rebels visual guide reconfirms that the Empire was xenophobic. Anyway, when Maul came back on the scene, Palpatine made it clear that he had no desire to have him as an apprentice, despite the latter then capturing Grievous and Dooku. I truly believe that by SoD, Maul was slightly more powerful than Dooku; yet Palpatine did not pit him against Dooku for the title of apprentice. Maul proved to be as smart and manipulative as Dooku, albeit perhaps slightly more crude. Why not have him return to the fold? Because Palpatine had found a fellow human that was almost as powerful, and that was good enough, and certaintly better than some stinky Zabrak.

Nah Maul wasn't even on Dooku's level. Notice that when it is revealed that Maul and Dooku are working together Mace immediately says that Dooku is the DLOTS, not Maul. Also throughout the war a good chunk of the Jedi Council sans perhaps Yoda and Kenobi believed that Dooku was Maul's master and the mastermind behind the war.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Notice that when it is revealed that Maul and Dooku are working together Mace immediately says that Dooku is the DLOTS, not Maul.

👆

Originally posted by Q99
What gives you that impression?

I mean, Grievous was able to give a somewhat-tired SoD Maul a good fight.

Maul curstomped Grievous in SoD 02, he only able to match with Maul after he send 4 magnaguards to exhaust him. And lastly in SoD 04, despite the fact he used surprise factor and Maul was not expecting a fight, Maul still subdued him with ease and then helped his mother.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. Dooku was still more powerful than Maul. And the gap wasn't small. It was significant.

How is that ? Dooku never tried to ran from Maul, he just accepted his hostage condition, he only tried to do something when Maul is distracted and he only used the force to unlock Grievous's cell. That confirms that even in the force, Dooku is not superior to TCW Maul at all. And in lightsaber combat, Maul can defeat Dooku due to his physical advantage.

if Dooku is superior to Maul in the force, there was lots of chance to take out Maul in SoD 02 - 03 - 04, but he never tried it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah Maul wasn't even on Dooku's level. Notice that when it is revealed that Maul and Dooku are working together Mace immediately says that Dooku is the DLOTS, not Maul. Also throughout the war a good chunk of the Jedi Council sans perhaps Yoda and Kenobi believed that Dooku was Maul's master and the mastermind behind the war.

What's got to do anything ? Maul especially wanted to be in shadow and not to reveal himself to the jedi order and republic, otherwise he would be bugsquash against vast army of republic. On the other hand, Dooku is the leader of the droid army, while Maul only controlled gangsters and part of the mandalore warriors death watch.

That's only can confirm that Maul and Dooku at the same level, if not Mace Windu should able to defeat Maul while especially Aayla Secura was helping him. And we know that Mace could stomp Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. Only Count Dooku could able match with Mace Windu in single combat, and TCW Maul easily did that.

As for the topic, Maul doesn't want to be apprentice either, remember when Sidious asked Maul's demands, he never said about returning to be sith apprenticeship. Maul just wanted to take revenge from Sidious, rather than being an apprentice again.

Originally posted by Marco1907

How is that ? Dooku never tried to ran from Maul, he just accepted his hostage condition, he only tried to do something when Maul is distracted and he only used the force to unlock Grievous's cell. That confirms that even in the force, Dooku is not superior to TCW Maul at all. And in lightsaber combat, Maul can defeat Dooku due to his physical advantage.

if Dooku is superior to Maul in the force, there was lots of chance to take out Maul in SoD 02 - 03 - 04, but he never tried it.

Up until SOD 4 it was part of Sidious's plan for Dooku to be captured by Maul to bring out Mother Talzin. Dooku only wanted Grievous to escape back to Sidious, and Dooku managed just that.

Also that's not exactly a fair scenario when Dooku is in handcuffs, without his Saber and surrounded by Maul and his men, so really not sure what your point is.

Originally posted by Marco1907

That's only can confirm that Maul and Dooku at the same level, if not Mace Windu should able to defeat Maul while especially Aayla Secura was helping him. And we know that Mace could stomp Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. Only Count Dooku could able match with Mace Windu in single combat, and TCW Maul easily did that.

Maul held off Windu and Secura, injuring Secura in the process. That's not the same thing as Maul stalemating Windu.

How many times has Ventress held off Skywalker and Kenobi together? Does that mean Ventress would stalemate Skywalker in a 1 vs 1 to the end?

What about Kenobi fighting off Maul and Opress?

Fact is though as of TCW Maul has consistently struggled to defeat Kenobi, whilst Dooku has consistently Owned Kenobi, with TK and with Sabers. So that IS Proof that Dooku is still above Maul in Sabers and in the Force Imho.

But hey that's not the end of the story. Dooku's dead whilst Maul's still alive, so perhaps Maul will grow more powerful by the next time we see him. At that point the Maul vs Dooku debate could be more interesting, but until then it's pretty one sided.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Up until SOD 4 it was part of Sidious's plan for Dooku to be captured by Maul to bring out Mother Talzin. Dooku only wanted Grievous to escape back to Sidious, and Dooku managed just that.

Also that's not exactly a fair scenario when Dooku is in handcuffs, without his Saber and surrounded by Maul and his men, so really not sure what your point is.

Maul held off Windu and Secura, injuring Secura in the process. That's not the same thing as Maul stalemating Windu.

How many times has Ventress held off Skywalker and Kenobi together? Does that mean Ventress would stalemate Skywalker in a 1 vs 1 to the end?

What about Kenobi fighting off Maul and Opress?

Fact is though as of TCW Maul has consistently struggled to defeat Kenobi, whilst Dooku has consistently Owned Kenobi, with TK and with Sabers. So that IS Proof that Dooku is still above Maul in Sabers and in the Force Imho.

But hey that's not the end of the story. Dooku's dead whilst Maul's still alive, so perhaps Maul will grow more powerful by the next time we see him. At that point the Maul vs Dooku debate could be more interesting, but until then it's pretty one sided.

Dooku only defeated AotC Kenobi. And he defeated him in RotS via force attacks not via fencing.

Maul defeated TCW Kenobi, who is more powerful than AotC and close RotS version.

He also owned him 3 times with the force attacks.
force choke in Sith Hunters
force choke - force pull and wrist his hand via martial art in season 5 episode 16
force blast in season 5 episode 01

Kenobi can defeat Savage Opress, because he can deflect Savage's brute strength via soresu (that's something Dooku can't with makashi) but that doesn't mean he can defeat Maul. Maul already defeated him in lightsaber combat in TCW via using dun moch, which means he is at least good at lightsaber combat or better and much better TK power.

YouTube video

Dooku is not superior to Obi-Wan in RotS either, that is why he used force attacks to defeat him.

Not to mention, Maul was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious and kicked him from torso, similar feat that while fighting against Mace Windu kicking Aayla Secura, or speedblitzing Magnaguards etc.

What the heck man? I'm trying not to facepalm.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku only defeated AotC Kenobi. And he defeated him in RotS via force attacks not via fencing..

Maul defeated TCW Kenobi, who is more powerful than AotC and close RotS version..

No Dooku was kicking TCW Kenobi's butt without using Force attacks in TCW Season 6.

And this while he was backed up by frigging Skywalker.

Originally posted by Marco1907
He also owned him 3 times with the force attacks.
force choke in Sith Hunters
force choke - force pull and wrist his hand via martial art in season 5 episode 16
force blast in season 5 episode 01

Apart from Sith Hunters none of the above were fair 1 on 1 scenarios.

And none of them compares to the way Dooku casually KO'd ROTS Kenobi via TK. Whilst simultaneously fighting off Skywalker no less.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi can defeat Savage Opress, because he can deflect Savage's brute strength via soresu (that's something Dooku can't with makashi) but that doesn't mean he can defeat Maul. Maul already defeated him in lightsaber combat in TCW via using dun moch, which means he is at least good at lightsaber combat or better and much better TK power.

You've said yourself, that he was only winning that fight via Dun Moch.

Kenobi was actually winning that fight before the Dun Moch and before Kenobi had to help Ventress.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is not superior to Obi-Wan in RotS either, that is why he used force attacks to defeat him.

Or he used Force attacks because he was fighting off 2 formidable opponents simultaneously.

Dooku was clearly superior to TCW Season 6 Kenobi. There's not much difference between Kenobi that late into TCW and ROTS Kenobi (if any at all). And even if Kenobi did radically improve since then, that has zero bearing on a Dooku vs Maul fight considering Maul never fought ROTS Kenobi. Maul fought the Kenobi who was getting trashed by Dooku in Sabers.

Plus it also proves Dooku can Force stomp a more powerful Kenobi, so again Maul is not Dooku's equal in Sabers or in The Force. And the Kenobi fights prove that.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Not to mention, Maul was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious and kicked him from torso, similar feat that while fighting against Mace Windu kicking Aayla Secura, or speedblitzing Magnaguards etc.

Sidious kicked his ass, even when he was backed up by Opress. So don't know what your trying to prove by bringing that up. In any case Dooku, all by himself mind you, put up a much better fight against Yoda (Sidious's equal).

So what, Ventress has fought Kenobi and Skywalker together and kicked Kenobi. How on earth does that make either Maul or Ventress Dooku's equal? It doesn't.

Kenobi is the wrong comparision on this one. Dooku is like kryptonite for Obi-Wan. Dooku hardly defeats Anakin, (and he is Obi-Wan's level) , Dooku's style will be not good against Maul, but it is very good against Soresu, because soresu doesn't have any threat to Makashi, you need physical and kinetic assaults for defeating Dooku.

So saying, Anakin defeated Dooku because he is the chosen one. It is a really dumb explanation ... There is a reason for Anakin beating Dooku while he failed to beat Obi-Wan. Otherwise Anakin can defeat Sidious and Yoda because he is the chosen one, is he not ?

Same Dooku get ragdolled by Savage Opress, you can clearly see his weaknessess here,

While Obi-Wan successfully defeated Savage Opress via lightsaber combat, you see ?

Obi-Wan is not a good comparision for this, Anakin and Savage is. Obi-Wan's style is more suitable for defeating likes of Anakin, Savage and Maul. (And yet, he still failed to defeat Maul in TCW) While Dooku's style is more suitable for defeating Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress etc.

Personally I think Dooku could have defended against that attack if he'd been more prepared. Ventress wasn't overpowered by Savage in a saberlock and Dooku doesn't have trouble against her strength. And in RotS he blocked Obi-Wan and Anakin at once with one hand

Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi is the wrong comparision on this one. Dooku is like kryptonite for Obi-Wan. Dooku hardly defeats Anakin, (and he is Obi-Wan's level) , Dooku's style will be not good against Maul, but it is very good against Soresu, because soresu doesn't have any threat to Makashi, you need physical and kinetic assaults for defeating Dooku.

Dooku struggles against Skywalker, yes. But he still has the edge over him. The difference between Dooku and Kenobi though is just too large to be solely down to a clash of forms.

Besides it's not just through lightsaber combat that Dooku trounces Kenobi. It's also through TK attacks. Maul has never been able to KO Kenobi so swiftly through via a TK attack.

Originally posted by Marco1907
So saying, Anakin defeated Dooku because he is the chosen one. It is a really dumb explanation ... There is a reason for Anakin beating Dooku while he failed to beat Obi-Wan. Otherwise Anakin can defeat Sidious and Yoda because he is the chosen one, is he not ?

I never said Anakin beats Dooku because he is the chosen one (although the reason he has so much raw power is due to his ridiculously high midi-chlorian count).

What I say is that Dooku is consistently a superior combatant to Skywalker. And the one time Skywalker beat him he began the fight with help, and almost got trounced himself.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Same Dooku get ragdolled by Savage Opress, you can clearly see his weaknessess here,

Doesn't matter because Maul's not as physically strong as Opress and doesn't have the raw natural power of Skywalker either.

Originally posted by Marco1907
While Obi-Wan successfully defeated Savage Opress via lightsaber combat, you see ?

And what? You honestly think Dooku can't beat Opress in Lightsaber combat 1 vs 1?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Obi-Wan is not a good comparision for this, Anakin and Savage is. Obi-Wan's style is more suitable for defeating likes of Anakin, Savage and Maul. (And yet, he still failed to defeat Maul in TCW) While Dooku's style is more suitable for defeating Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress etc.

Your seem to be putting Dooku down to Kenobi's level, and writing off his stompage of Kenobi as just "a clash of styles." But it's simply too large a difference, not only in Sabers but also in TK, to just write off as a clash of styles Imho.

Maul's not as physically strong as Opress and doesn't have the raw natural power of Skywalker either. So point is moot.

Like I said Maul is still alive, so still has a chance to improve and perhaps get closer to Dooku's level one day. But as of TCW, he's clearly not there yet.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And in RotS he blocked Obi-Wan and Anakin at once with one hand

Tzeen pointed out that was more of an optimum pivot point, which I can see. I doubt Dooku is as strong with one hand as both Kenobi and Skywalker combined.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I think Dooku could have defended against that attack if he'd been more prepared. Ventress wasn't overpowered by Savage in a saberlock and Dooku doesn't have trouble against her strength. And in RotS he blocked Obi-Wan and Anakin at once with one hand

Well, Ventress is a little better than Dooku. She has H2H combat feats, while Dooku has not. Still she was losing to Savage though.

When there is too much difference, like ;

Savage > Maul >= Anakin > Obi-Wan > Ventress > Dooku

Dooku can't make bladelock with Savage, that is why he was escaping from that because he know that as well.

Full fight ;
YouTube video

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And what? You honestly think Dooku can't beat Opress in Lightsaber combat 1 vs 1?

Yes, Dooku can't defeat Savage in lightsaber combat. Because he lack that physical strength to bladelock.

Really ? Maul doesn't have Anakin's strength ? Why ? Don't tell me because he is the chosen one......

Maul has enough strength to utilize H2H combat on Savage, that is why he caught Savage's hand and twisted like this ;

Maul has enough physical strength to compete with Anakin.

Same Savage ragdolled Anakin once ;

YouTube video

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, Ventress is a little better than Dooku. She has H2H combat feats, while Dooku has not. Still she was losing to Savage though.

When there is too much difference, like ;

Savage > Maul >= Anakin > Obi-Wan > Ventress > Dooku

I really hope this is based on strength.....

Well if Ventress is able to hold off Savage in a saberlock he can't be that much stronger than her.

Though you're ignoring that Dooku was actually very good at landing kicks on opponents.

Originally posted by Marco1907

Yes, Dooku can't defeat Savage in lightsaber combat. Because he lack that physical strength to bladelock.

You are kidding right? Watch the first 50 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2xe9okSSLA

Originally posted by Marco1907

Really ? Maul doesn't have Anakin's strength ? Why ? Don't tell me because he is the chosen one......

Because Anakin has tremendous raw power, not to mention a cybernetic arm.

Now prove to me Maul's strength is on Skywalker's level. Not that it matters considering throughout TCW Dooku fought Skywalker quite evenly in Sabers, and even in ROTS sent him flying smacking across the room with a kick, after fighting off BOTH him and Kenobi, before Anakin eventually defeated him.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul has enough strength to utilize H2H combat on Savage, that is why he caught Savage's hand and twisted like this ;

It was a martial art move. Doesn't prove he's anywhere near as strong as Opress. In fact when Opress was striking away at him Maul was giving ground in what seemed very much like Makashi ; )

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul has enough physical strength to compete with Anakin.

Same Savage ragdolled Anakin once ;

Prove Maul's as strong as Anakin. The same Anakin Dooku has sent flying via a Beastly kick.

Also I'd like to point out Soresu isn't supposed to have a weakness (except for it's lack of offense). So to say Soresu just happens to be weak against Makashi is a faulty premise to begin with.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I really hope this is based on strength.....

Well if Ventress is able to hold off Savage in a saberlock he can't be that much stronger than her.

Though you're ignoring that Dooku was actually very good at landing kicks on opponents.

Of course, it is just pure strength, and Asajj a little better than Dooku. When there is a great difference such as this (Savage vs Dooku) it is only natural that occurs.

For example, Asajj vs. Yoda - TK difference. Yoda mocked her with ease, unlocked her lightsaber etc.
However Yoda couldn't do the same with Dooku or TCW Maul. (unlocking his saber) because there are no enormous difference such as with Ventress's TK and his. (Yoda still beats Dooku & Maul, I am just saying he can't mock like he did to Ventress)

Dooku still doesn't have any H2H unarmed combat feat. All of his kicks are depends on finding an opening via fencing style, not via martial arts such as Ventress has ;

YouTube video

Originally posted by Marco1907

Dooku still doesn't have any H2H unarmed combat feat. All of his kicks are depends on finding an openning via fencing style, not via martial arts such as Ventress has ;

Who cares? He has his Saber, so point is moot 😬