Originally posted by Arhael
When did Dooku own Kenobi in sabers, excluding AotC?
In Sabers meaning in a Saber fight without use of TK.
That happens in TCW Season 6. Dooku owns Kenobi a couple of times through physical attacks (so yeah technically not saber slashes).
Whatever you want to call it, point is it seems quite clear Dooku is a superior combatant to Kenobi. Because so far it's 3/3 fights to Dooku, fights which range from AOTC through TCW and ending with ROTS.
Re: Re: Re: Speciesist reason for not wanting Maul
Originally posted by Marco1907
[B]
What's got to do anything ? Maul especially wanted to be in shadow and not to reveal himself to the jedi order and republic, otherwise he would be bugsquash against vast army of republic. On the other hand, Dooku is the leader of the droid army, while Maul only controlled gangsters and part of the mandalore warriors death watch.
Everything. In TPM Mace inquires to Yoda 'which was destroyed, the Master or the apprentice'. When he finds out Dooku and him are working together he immediately puts Dooku as the stronger. Considering Mace was able to sense the power of Maul and Dooku respectively, he must have sensed a considerable difference in power in order to be able to plainly state Dooku as the DLOTS. Also "the strong will rule."
That's only can confirm that Maul and Dooku at the same level, if not Mace Windu should able to defeat Maul while especially Aayla Secura was helping him. And we know that Mace could stomp Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. Only Count Dooku could able match with Mace Windu in single combat, and TCW Maul easily did that.
Easily? Bro he engaged him for like 2 seconds then got ****ing blindsided by a rocket. In that time Dooku babyshook a Jedi Master though demonstrating his clear superiority.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Speciesist reason for not wanting Maul
Didn't that in AotC, Dooku was using dun moch against Kenobi as well ?
''Master Kenobi you dissapoint me, Yoda holds you such a high steam.''
''Sure you can do better.''
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Everything. In TPM Mace inquires to Yoda 'which was destroyed, the Master or the apprentice'. When he finds out Dooku and him are working together he immediately puts Dooku as the stronger. Considering Mace was able to sense the power of Maul and Dooku respectively, he must have sensed a considerable difference in power in order to be able to plainly state Dooku as the DLOTS. Also "the strong will rule."
Mace thought that because of Dooku's old age ;
JN: Mace thinks Dooku was Maul's original master. Didn't Maul die right before Dooku left?JB: I’m sure there’s an explanation for that…I just don’t have one! As far as Mace Windu knows, Dooku could’ve been dabbling in the Dark Side long before he broke ties with the Jedi Order (just roll with me here—we don’t know yet how the new canon falls together!), and that he’d been grooming and training Maul for years. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
That doesn't mean anything, especially while you are claiming something is not clear, Mace never said Dooku should be master because he sensed that he is stronger. Let alone that, he is not sure either ;
''Deception perhaps?'' Do you see the question mark ? How can you tell me that Windu is sure about this, or why didn't tell, I am sure Dooku is the master because I sense Maul is weaker, (it would be dumb because otherwise why the **** didn't you catch Darth Maul while Aayla Secura was helping you?)
Originally posted by Lord StarkEasily? Bro he engaged him for like 2 seconds then got ****ing blindsided by a rocket. In that time Dooku babyshook a Jedi Master though demonstrating his clear superiority.
And do you think Dooku could babyshook that jedi master while fighting with Mace Windu ? You know, Mace Windu > Obi-Wan Kenobi (official info) and default un-amped Mace Windu = Count Dooku (another official info)
And Aayla Secura > Tiplee , since Tiplee doesn't have any good feats unlike Aayla.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Alright, if we are going to play with that way, then how about Maul saying ''serve me Dooku''Because Maul sensed that he is stronger than Dooku,
''Now I suggest you abandon Sidious and serve me.''
Well the intention was to have Dooku serve him and Mother Talzin.
Not that it matters. It's not like Maul would offer Dooku to be Maul's master Lol. Especially when Dooku was Maul's prisoner.
Lord Stark's point is valid though. Mace jumped to the assumption that Dooku was the Master because he knew Dooku to be more powerful. Not because Dooku is older. Dooku is older than Sidious, but Sidious is his Master. With Sith, everyone knows the more powerful one will Ultimately be the Master.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the intention was to have Dooku serve him and Mother Talzin.Not that it matters. It's not like Maul would offer Dooku to be Maul's master Lol. Especially when Dooku was Maul's prisoner.
Lord Stark's point is valid though. Mace jumped to the assumption that Dooku was the Master because he knew Dooku to be more powerful. Not because Dooku is older. Dooku is older than Sidious, but Sidious is his Master. With Sith, everyone knows the more powerful one will Ultimately be the Master.
No because Sidious was the chancellor, and republic is stronger than CIS.
Windu never said that Dooku should be the master because he is the stronger.
Maul was the leader of the gangsters and mandalore which is much weaker than CIS and republic.
I just showed the part why Windu thinks that way, because he think that Dooku trained Maul ;
JN: Mace thinks Dooku was Maul's original master. Didn't Maul die right before Dooku left?JB: I’m sure there’s an explanation for that…I just don’t have one! As far as Mace Windu knows, Dooku could’ve been dabbling in the Dark Side long before he broke ties with the Jedi Order (just roll with me here—we don’t know yet how the new canon falls together!), and that he’d been grooming and training Maul for years. Yeah, that’s the ticket !
Dooku being prisoner means nothing, he never said ''I am stronger than you, so I refuse.'' Means Dooku accepted the fact that Maul is the stronger one.
Originally posted by Marco1907
No because Sidious was the chancellor, and republic is stronger than CIS.Windu never said that Dooku should be the master because he is the stronger.
Maul was the leader of the gangsters and mandalore which is much weaker than CIS and republic.
CIS wasn't around at the time of TPM.
Originally posted by Marco1907
I just showed the part why Windu thinks that way, because he think that Dooku trained Maul ;
But Dooku would only remain Master as long as he is more powerful.
The Jedi knows that's how the Sith operate.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku being prisoner means nothing, he never said ''I am stronger than you, so I refuse.'' Means Dooku accepted the fact that Maul is the stronger one.
What? He accepted because he had no choice. He was the prisoner remember. Maul would have killed Dooku had he rejected.
Dooku > Maul > Opress.
@DARTH POWER
Do you think Maul is stupid enough to ask that ? He has force sense you know, he can sense Dooku's power, which means they are at the same level at worst.
Dooku was not a prisoner when they were fighting against Jedi, he had his lightsaber and he would try to ran from the jedi. And also, Maul and his men tried to cover themselves, because that was Maul's main idea, shadow collective. If not he would be squash against republic.
Do you see this ? Maul's guard didn't said ''Lord Maul'', instead ''Lord ---'' means that they were trying to show the impression that working for CIS.
And Mace's first sentence ;
''This has gone far enough Dooku!'' Because Mace knows that CIS is the main enemy and Dooku is the leader of them. He doesn't know that Dooku was a prisoner of Maul, that is why he thought that Maul trained by Dooku and he was the apprentice.
And still, Mace was not sure. ''Deception perhaps?'' While Mace never said Dooku is the stronger one, and author of the comic says Mace think that because of Dooku's old age.
Also, If Dooku was the stronger one, he should've go for Mace & Aayla duo, instead of Kenobi and Tiplee.
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWERDo you think Maul is stupid enough to ask that ? He has force sense you know, he can sense Dooku's power, which means they are at the same level at worst.
Just as Mace can sense the power of both Maul & Dooku, yet immediately assumes Dooku is the Master and Maul is the Apprentice.
Also Maul know Dooku would not just serve him, but also Mother Talzin. There's no way Dooku could overpower them both, plus Maul's army.
Dooku basically had no choice in that situation.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku was not a prisoner when they were fighting against Jedi, he had his lightsaber and he would try to ran from the jedi. And also, Maul and his men tried to cover themselves, because that was Maul's main idea, shadow collective. If not he would be squash against republic.
Dooku agreed to help Maul as part of Sidious's plan to find Talzin.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you see this ? Maul's guard didn't said ''Lord Maul'', instead ''Lord ---'' means that they were trying to show the impression that working for CIS.
So what?
And Mace's first sentence ;
Originally posted by Marco1907
''This has gone far enough Dooku!'' Because Mace knows that CIS is the main enemy and Dooku is the leader of them. He doesn't know that Dooku was a prisoner of Maul, that is why he thought that Maul trained by Dooku and he was the apprentice.
Yeah but Mace also knows if Maul was more powerful than Dooku he would have overthrown Dooku by now and taken over the Sith himself.
Also as far as Windu knows Maul could be the Master behind closed doors, with his apprentice Dooku just being the face of the CIS. That is how Maul was ruling the Madalorians after all.
So yeah fact is Windu naturally assumed Dooku was Maul's master because Dooku is Older and more Powerful.
If there was any doubt to that, then Mace wouldn't have jumped to the assumption that Dooku is the Master. But he did.
Originally posted by Marco1907
[B]And still, Mace was not sure. ''Deception perhaps?'' While Mace never said Dooku is the stronger one, and author of the comic says Mace think that because of Dooku's old age.
It was Sidious who put the doubt in Mace's head. If there was any doubt to who was the more powerful, then Mace wouldn't have jumped to the assumption that Dooku is the Master in the first place.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Also, If Dooku was the stronger one, he should've go for Mace & Aayla duo, instead of Kenobi and Tiplee.
They just went for the closer foes.
It's not like either Maul or Dooku said, you go for him, I'll go for them.
Besides Dooku killed one of his opponents and would have killed Kenobi given more time, so it was the right play.
It seems to me that some people are forgetting Maul has become more powerful in TCW,
Here is the quote says that he has become more powerful than his TPM version ;
Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
-Taken from ; Shadow Conspiracy
Originally posted by Marco1907
Didn't that in AotC, Dooku was using dun moch against Kenobi as well ?''Master Kenobi you dissapoint me, Yoda holds you such a high steam.''
''Sure you can do better.''
Mace thought that because of Dooku's old age ;
That doesn't mean anything, especially while you are claiming something is not clear, Mace never said Dooku should be master because he sensed that he is stronger. Let alone that, he is not sure either ;
''Deception perhaps?'' Do you see the question mark ? How can you tell me that Windu is sure about this, or why didn't tell, I am sure Dooku is the master because I sense Maul is weaker, (it would be dumb because otherwise why the **** didn't you catch Darth Maul while Aayla Secura was helping you?)
And do you think Dooku could babyshook that jedi master while fighting with Mace Windu ? You know, Mace Windu > Obi-Wan Kenobi (official info) and default un-amped Mace Windu = Count Dooku (another official info)
And Aayla Secura > Tiplee , since Tiplee doesn't have any good feats unlike Aayla.
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWERDo you think Maul is stupid enough to ask that ? He has force sense you know, he can sense Dooku's power, which means they are at the same level at worst.
Dooku was not a prisoner when they were fighting against Jedi, he had his lightsaber and he would try to ran from the jedi. And also, Maul and his men tried to cover themselves, because that was Maul's main idea, shadow collective. If not he would be squash against republic.
Do you see this ? Maul's guard didn't said ''Lord Maul'', instead ''Lord ---'' means that they were trying to show the impression that working for CIS.
And Mace's first sentence ;
''This has gone far enough Dooku!'' Because Mace knows that CIS is the main enemy and Dooku is the leader of them. He doesn't know that Dooku was a prisoner of Maul, that is why he thought that Maul trained by Dooku and he was the apprentice.
And still, Mace was not sure. ''Deception perhaps?'' While Mace never said Dooku is the stronger one, and author of the comic says Mace think that because of Dooku's old age.
Also, If Dooku was the stronger one, he should've go for Mace & Aayla duo, instead of Kenobi and Tiplee.
Lol hubris from Maul. Character statements about their own power, particularly Sith are often fallacious.
Even Dooku who's not really prone to such talk tells Yoda.
"I've become more powerful than any Jedi, even you."
If we use those statements
Maul>Dooku>Yoda
Also the reason Mace and Aayla went after Maul could be a variety of reasons.
1. They thought they could take Maul out of the picture faster than Dooku could take down Tiplee and Kenobi.
2. Mace knows Kenobi fighting Maul will bring out many conflicting emotions, including feelings that'll lure him to the Dark Side.
3. Dooku and Mace used to be buddies, fighting him could bring conflicting emotions. We've already seen in AOTCs Mace was hesitant to kill Dooku.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They could have done a fight and had Maul run away. Or gain the upper hand through indirect means.Hell, what if they're fighting then Anakin and Obi-Wan burst in and they call a temporary truce to take out the Jedi, Maul vs Kenobi + Anakin vs Dooku. That would have been badass.
Staahhp, too cool for a comic.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And then Savage is resurrected as a zombie and fights Grievous.Actually, GG vs Savage would have been a really neat fight. I wonder how Savage would deal with the 4 sabers. mmm
Would have been awesome. I also wish they kept badass Krell around for more than that arc. He would have been a great villain.