Originally posted by carthage
Your pos indicated a match of pure sabers.
No. Dooku is better in that regard.
Originally posted by carthage
Vaders TK is far superior to the Counts.
I've not denied that. Or that Prime OT Vader would take Dooku in an all out. But Dooku still has one advantage in The Force - his FL.
Originally posted by carthage
[B]In a match of pure sabers Dooku is more agile, but the speed difference isnt massive. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport, moved fast enough to appear as if he materialized out of thin air, and blitzed a Jedi decades before his prime. Dooku has the inherent mobility advantage of Makashi's mobility,
Those speed quotes sound like the usual hyperbole, and not real evidence of his speed as compared to other Jedi. This is the same guy who struggled to defeat Old Ben in Sabers. Do you think Old Ben is Dooku's equal/superior in speed now?
Originally posted by carthage
but he cant damage Vader as he is weaker,
He can still hurt Vader via FL or just via his Saber. And I've realized even his Kicks will still be lethal, given ROTJ Luke's kick floored Vader.
Originally posted by carthage
and Vaders strength gradually wear him down as in the ROTS duel
That's like saying Grievous would eventually wear down Dooku's defenses just because he's really "strong."
No. This isn't ROTS Anakin, with Raw Force power that potentially exceeds even Yoda's at his disposal, on top of a Cyborg arm himself, and on top of being much more naturally mobile than OT Vader himself.
And he doesn't have Kenobi helping him here either.
Dooku's not going to lose because he gets tired. And it's going to be nothing like the ROTS Duel.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Those speed quotes sound like the usual hyperbole, and not real evidence of his speed as compared to other Jedi. This is the same guy who struggled to defeat Old Ben in Sabers. Do you think Old Ben is Dooku's equal/superior in speed now?
He struggled to defeat Old Ben not because he wasn't fast enough, but because Ben was still a formidable Soresu master despite his age.
Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practicioner.
-- Insider 62: Fightsaber
And yes, those speed showings are representative of Vader's normal speed. There's hardly anything hyperbolic about them. He also has high and low showings, of course, but those are much rarer. Vader is simply considerably less agile than he was as Anakin, but that doesn't mean that his speed can't be impressive (though he is below Dooku in this regard). Speed and agility are not the same thing, and many of Vader's few low showings involve more the latter than the former.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But his strength backed up by his Raw Tk will be Dooku's worst nightmare (especially given how skilled Vader is himself).
I'm not so sure. ROTS Anakin was superior Djem So user to ROTJ Vader, he was at least twice as powerful in the Force (in terms of raw power, I mean), and he was much faster.
Vader with his own physcial strenght and raw power in the Force was unable to hold off Luke's strikes enhanced by his full raw power in the Force.
Vader was exhausted and Luke's strikes had put him on the ground.
Anakin also overhelmed Dooku with his strenght enhanced by his raw power, but at the end he had to outmanuvered Dooku to defeat him.
Considering the fact, that ROTS Anakin was superior to Luke in terms of Djem So's technique, physical strenght, raw power in the Force and possibly speed, it looks that Dooku could handle those kind of fighters much better then Vader.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
He struggled to defeat Old Ben not because he wasn't fast enough, but because Ben was still a formidable Soresu master despite his age.Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practicioner.
-- Insider 62: FightsaberAnd yes, those speed showings are representative of Vader's normal speed. There's hardly anything hyperbolic about them. He also has high and low showings, of course, but those are much rarer. Vader is simply considerably less agile than he was as Anakin, but that doesn't mean that his speed can't be impressive (though he is below Dooku in this regard). Speed and agility are not the same thing, and many of Vader's few low showings involve more the latter than the former.
They are hyperbole. Jedi/Sith don't actually move so fast that they're invisible or that they look like they've teleported. If they did then people like Pre-Viszla and Jango Fett would never be capable of even challenging the likes of Maul and Kenobi let alone going toe to toe with them. Jedi/Sith are not DC Comic level speedsters or anything of the sort. Their speed and mobility is more akin to Spider-Man or Blade. And those are the more talented ones.
Makashi is also excellent at deflecting Saber strikes. So Vader would have the same problem against the Master of Makashi.
You agree that Dooku is clearly faster anyway so I'm not going to get into a drawn out discussion on the issue unless you think Vader is Dooku's equal or superior in a Pure Saber match.
Originally posted by carthage
Your pos indicated a match of pure sabers. Vaders TK is far superior to the Counts. In a match of pure sabers Dooku is more agile, but the speed difference isnt massive. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport, moved fast enough to appear as if he materialized out of thin air, and blitzed a Jedi decades before his prime. Dooku has the inherent mobility advantage of Makashi's mobility, but he cant damage Vader as he is weaker, and Vaders strength gradually wear him down as in the ROTS duel
The speed difference between Vader & Dooku is massive. Especially when you think their low-end feats. But somehow people are forgetting that, yes when you just see Vader's high-end feats the speed difference is not massive, but when you see all of them, yes it is damn massive, and Vader shouldn't be faster than PT prime jedi masters to begin with. (by Lucas)
And, can someone explain to me how RotJ Luke defeated RotJ Vader in lightsaber combat ? I mean, was Luke more skillful and physically stronger than Vader ? Nah, he was just faster than him.
Originally posted by Marco1907
And, can someone explain to me how RotJ Luke defeated RotJ Vader in lightsaber combat ? I mean, was Luke more skillful and physically stronger than Vader ? Nah, he was just faster than him.
Luke probably was faster, but that wasn't a factor in their fight. Vader didn't loose because of Luke's greater speed, skill or smothing like that. He lost because Luke's strikes exaused him and put him on the ground.
Luke has beaten Vader because of his superior raw power in the Force. Dooku was defeated in the same way (but by superior opponent).
Originally posted by McP
Luke probably was faster, but that wasn't a factor in their fight. Vader didn't loose because of Luke's greater speed, skill or smothing like that. He lost because Luke's strikes exaused him and put him on the ground.
Luke has beaten Vader because of his superior raw power in the Force. Dooku was defeated in the same way (but by superior opponent).
Dooku defeated because of Anakin's kinetic power, I still put Dooku higher than Anakin in terms of speed. But the speed difference was not massive, and that is why Anakin was able to use his physical advantage over Dooku. But Vader ? Anakin was much faster than Vader, that is why Vader can't use his physical advantage over Dooku because of that massive speed difference.
I read the RotJ novel to find some evidence about speed difference between Vader and RotJ Luke, it says that Luke has --timing-- advantage over Vader ;
Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees. Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations. He had the power; the choice was his. And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer. It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil. He took one step forward. For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City -, not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. ----
He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an overhangingbeam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly. Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist.
And this ;
As Skywalker threw himself at the towering black figure, Vader raised his lightsaber to defend himself. But he wasn't fast enough. Sky walker's blade cut through the Sith Lord's prosthetic right arm, and it fell to the floor, still clutching the red-bladed lightsaber.-Taken from ; Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Luke's speed doesn't matter, Vader was just lying on the floor and could do nothing, because he was completly exhausted. Luke already won that fight even before Vader's hand was cut off.
(...)and as he fell back against the bridge's railing he was unable to stop Luke's blade from severing his right wrist. Metal and electronic parts flew from Vader's shattered stump, and his lightsaber clattered over the edge of the bridge and into the apparently bottomless shaft. Badly wounded and utterly exhausted, Vader looked up to see Luke's lightsaber angled to deliver a killing stroke.
"Rise and Fall of Darth Vader"
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They are hyperbole. Jedi/Sith don't actually move so fast that they're invisible or that they look like they've teleported. If they did then people like Pre-Viszla and Jango Fett would never be capable of even challenging the likes of Maul and Kenobi let alone going toe to toe with them. Jedi/Sith are not DC Comic level speedsters or anything of the sort. Their speed and mobility is more akin to Spider-Man or Blade. And those are the more talented ones.Makashi is also excellent at deflecting Saber strikes. So Vader would have the same problem against the Master of Makashi.
You agree that Dooku is clearly faster anyway so I'm not going to get into a drawn out discussion on the issue unless you think Vader is Dooku's equal or superior in a Pure Saber match.
No? People like Mace Windu and Darth Maul replicated that level of speed. Others like Anakin have moved so fast that they appeared to be in dozens of places at once and created many afterimages of themselves. Obi-Wan has deflected blaster fire from an army of droid, and formed a shield out of his blade ( the latter was also replicated by Vader), etc.
Moving invisibly fast is fodder level speed anyway, and the characters I mentioned aren't even the best in this regard.
TCW doesn't portray speed levels like the EU, so this doesn't change Legends Force user's ability to move at that speed. Of course, if you take TCW more seriously, you should disregard ALL speed feats from all character to be coherent
Not only that, but many of Vader's feats wer shown in comics so it's not hyperbole. You could say that some of his high showing are hyperbole, but most of Vader's showings don't fall under that category.
I still agree that Dooku is faster, but not by much. He is also more skilled than Rotj Vader, so he would win against Galen (whose ragdolling of Vader with TK is inconsistent anyways).
Do you know, that you have posted a part of their fight on Mimban? That was Luke supported by Ben as I remember (anyway, "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" was possibly the worst book in the whole universe).
Strenght isn't much of a factor in a duels. Especially when Force user is enhance by the Force.
Luke was physically weaker, but his raw power was superior. Which made his blows superior to Vader's in terms of kinetic power. That's why Vader was forced onto deep defensive and defeated.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
No? People like Mace Windu and Darth Maul replicated that level of speed. Others like Anakin have moved so fast that they appeared to be in dozens of places at once and created many afterimages of themselves. Obi-Wan has deflected blaster fire from an army of droid, and formed a shield out of his blade ( the latter was also replicated by Vader), etc.Moving invisibly fast is fodder level speed anyway, and the characters I mentioned aren't even the best in this regard.
TCW doesn't portray speed levels like the EU, so this doesn't change Legends Force user's ability to move at that speed. Of course, if you take TCW more seriously, you should disregard ALL speed feats from all character to be coherent
Not only that, but many of Vader's feats wer shown in comics so it's not hyperbole. You could say that some of his high showing are hyperbole, but most of Vader's showings don't fall under that category.
I still agree that Dooku is faster, but not by much. He is also more skilled than Rotj Vader, so he would win against Galen (whose ragdolling of Vader with TK is inconsistent anyways).
Even within Legends, feats and consistency took a second place to G and T Canon. Leeland Chee made that clear years ago.
Jedi are fast, but they're no DC type speedsters.
In any case for all Vader's "speed feats" he was no faster than Old Ben.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which is the trouble. I usually just take the one that has Marek doing the most comparable to PT Jedi, i.e. which ever one he gets his ass handed to him the most in. TFUII through a curveball at this one, though.
I go with what ever makes Vader look the most bad ass.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even within Legends, feats and consistency took a second place to G and T Canon. Leeland Chee made that clear years ago.Jedi are fast, but they're no DC type speedsters.
In any case for all Vader's "speed feats" he was no faster than Old Ben.
What did he mean? That whenever a character is faster than what's shown in the movies/TCW the feat becomes invalid? I don't think so, and again, it's just about different ways of portraying characters in mediums, not to mention that what you said is ambiguous. I suggest you post the quote for clarification. And would you also dismiss many Force feats becuse movies/TCW don't include that kind of stuff? Not to mention that even in movies, people can move fast as blurs (see TPM). Heck, in Rebels even Ezra (who is totally untrained) was dodging several blaster bolts from a Tie fighter by moving invisibly fast/fast as a blur, or something like that, so I don't see what's the contradiction, honestly, other than your notion that Jedi/Sith just can't be that fast because reasons.
Originally posted by ares834
I go with what ever makes Vader look the most bad ass.
As to Jedi speed feats, Jedi are always shown to be fast in TCW. Just not when it's important. That's how they able to block blaster bolts moving faster than tracers can move and can jump on speeders going full throttle.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
What did he mean? That whenever a character is faster than what's shown in the movies/TCW the feat becomes invalid?
I mean I take "descriptions" of speed with a grain of salt, and go more by what's displayed visually.
In animation form there's no excuse not to show Jedi/Sith being "Invisible" or seeming like they "teleport." Fact is they're not displayed like that because they're not supposed to be that fast. If they were the droids on Geonosia wouldn't stand a chance, and Dooku could never have been caught by pirates.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
I don't think so, and again, it's just about different ways of portraying characters in mediums,
Exactly they're portrayed differently in different mediums, but the G and T Canon mediums are the closest to how they are actually supposed to be.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
not to mention that what you said is ambiguous. I suggest you post the quote for clarification.
I don't have the quote, but it was discussed in length on these boards years ago. In either case it's kind of irrelevant now as all the Legends stuff has been separated from Official canon sources.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
And would you also dismiss many Force feats becuse movies/TCW don't include that kind of stuff?
I would dismiss "descriptions" which could easily be hyperbolic. And recognize that anything beyond Sidious/Yoda from G and T Canon sources is likely just the depiction of force powers from a different medium. A less Canon medium though.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Not to mention that even in movies, people can move fast as blurs (see TPM).
We've seen "bursts" of speed twice in 6 movies. The one you mentioned and Luke's leap in ESB. But they've never been displayed as "blurs" throughout a whole fight in the films or in animation.
And even in those 2 "bursts", they were clearly still "visible."
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Heck, in Rebels even Ezra (who is totally untrained) was dodging several blaster bolts from a Tie fighter by moving invisibly fast/fast as a blur, or something like that, so I don't see what's the contradiction, honestly, other than your notion that Jedi/Sith just can't be that fast because reasons.
I haven't once denied Jedi/Sith are great at dodging. They are via Pre-Cog, speed, leaps and great agility. But not just through sheer speed. More on a Spider-Man type level. But not by being invisible like Quicksilver or The Flash.
I don't even once remember Ezra being "invisible." He was very visible. As were the fastest 2 Jedi/Sith, Yoda and Sidious when we saw them fight in TCW Animation.