Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Confrontation with Lord Nyax took place after Luke's epic feat of manipulating an artificially created blackhole. I believe that Luke have peaked at this point.
Your subjective belief is irrelevant. Someone with the potential of Luke would not have peaked in his 40s, when someone like Palpatine was still growing stronger well into his 80s.
That aside, you cannot establish that Vitiate > Nyax, but I can point out that;
1. Vitiate has no counter to Luke's prowess with a lightsaber
2. Luke has resisted the mental influence of Abeloth
3. Luke's black hole feat, fortress destruction feat, super massive black hole feat, and performance in TUF outstrip by miles anything Vitiate has ever demonstrated in an actual combative context.
Vitiate is way, way down the totem pole next to Skywalker.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDi think u have the encounters a little mixed up. He never overwhelmed lukes will, and when the 3 joined it was only to break their paralysis, luke had already blocked his mental influence.
I don't get the senseless laughing, as if it somehow makes your position credible. It doesn't.Luke is not virtually impossible to defeat or unstoppable. Read about Luke's confrontation with Lord Nyax to enlighten yourself. In this confrontation, Lord Nyax subjected Luke to his telepathic powers on different occasions; immobilized Luke by telepathically inflicting pain on him at one point; and overwhelmed Luke's will at one point but Luke saved himself by joining his mind with that of Mara and Tahiri and the 3 countered Nyax's telepathic influence with their combined might. During the course of this battle, Luke wasn't able to defeat Lord Nyax and the battle ended when Tahiri took advantage of Lord Nyax while he was distraction and managed to injure him.
Lord Nyax have the official hype of being the most powerful Dark Jedi of his era.
Nyax tried his mental voodoo on luke 4 times. The first he surprised an exhausted luke and tried to make him walk off a cliff, but luke saw thru it.
"Luke unlatched the viewports locks. All he had to do was step out on the walkway that now stretched between this building and the other. He could walk right up to this man and begin asking questions. But some faint stirring of alarm-his pilots ability to glimpse and memorize topographical details-shook him out of the fog that overcame his thinking."
The second he tried forcing luke to join him. That didnt work either.
"But the sight of her brought back memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty. He saw his son, composed of luke and mara and years to come. Around the edges of lord nyax's command he felt the force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed."
"He turned back toward lord nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought." "I stand in your way."
The third was the pain/paralysis attack. This is the one where tahiri was able to attack due to a distraction. U were right about that but didnt mention that it was luke hitting him with a rock that was the distraction.
"And though luke couldnt move, he could act. He reached out thru the force and grabbed the stone that nyax had tried to use against him earlier. He jerked it towards his enemy."
"And though he was weakened by pain, by distraction, it flew those meters and slammed into nyax's back, driving him forward, and slamming him off his feet."
The fourth time he tried to make luke kill tahiri but he blocked it. The 3 joining only helped luke overcome the pain so he could move.
"Then Nyax drove another thought into lukes brain: kill tahiri."
"This time luke was ready for it.hed had a moment to center his thoughts, and, most important, his emotions. He was ready with his memories of tahiri, all the times shed been delighted as shed made another gain in her study of the force, all the hopes hed had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakkn Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get the senseless laughing, as if it somehow makes your position credible. It doesn't.Luke is not virtually impossible to defeat or unstoppable. Read about Luke's confrontation with Lord Nyax to enlighten yourself. In this confrontation, Lord Nyax subjected Luke to his telepathic powers on different occasions; immobilized Luke by telepathically inflicting pain on him at one point; and overwhelmed Luke's will at one point but Luke saved himself by joining his mind with that of Mara and Tahiri and the 3 countered Nyax's telepathic influence with their combined might. During the course of this battle, Luke wasn't able to defeat Lord Nyax and the battle ended when Tahiri took advantage of Lord Nyax while he was distraction and managed to injure him.
Lord Nyax have the official hype of being the most powerful Dark Jedi of his era.
Originally posted by Raptor22
i think u have the encounters a little mixed up. He never overwhelmed lukes will, and when the 3 joined it was only to break their paralysis, luke had already blocked his mental influence.Nyax tried his mental voodoo on luke 4 times. The first he surprised an exhausted luke and tried to make him walk off a cliff, but luke saw thru it.
"Luke unlatched the viewports locks. All he had to do was step out on the walkway that now stretched between this building and the other. He could walk right up to this man and begin asking questions. But some faint stirring of alarm-his pilots ability to glimpse and memorize topographical details-shook him out of the fog that overcame his thinking."
The second he tried forcing luke to join him. That didnt work either.
"But the sight of her brought back memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty. He saw his son, composed of luke and mara and years to come. Around the edges of lord nyax's command he felt the force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed."
"He turned back toward lord nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought." "I stand in your way."The third was the pain/paralysis attack. This is the one where tahiri was able to attack due to a distraction. U were right about that but didnt mention that it was luke hitting him with a rock that was the distraction.
"And though luke couldnt move, he could act. He reached out thru the force and grabbed the stone that nyax had tried to use against him earlier. He jerked it towards his enemy."
"And though he was weakened by pain, by distraction, it flew those meters and slammed into nyax's back, driving him forward, and slamming him off his feet."The fourth time he tried to make luke kill tahiri but he blocked it. The 3 joining only helped luke overcome the pain so he could move.
"Then Nyax drove another thought into lukes brain: kill tahiri."
"This time luke was ready for it.hed had a moment to center his thoughts, and, most important, his emotions. He was ready with his memories of tahiri, all the times shed been delighted as shed made another gain in her study of the force, all the hopes hed had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakkn Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
It's hard to get these sorts of things right when one reads the encounters off Wookieepedia.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Your subjective belief is irrelevant. Someone with the potential of Luke would not have peaked in his 40s, when someone like Palpatine was still growing stronger well into his 80s.
Palpatine is a practitioner of dark arts, he was interested in cheating death and becoming more powerful by honing his talents in unnatural abilities such as immortality and Force Drain.
It isn't wise to compare Jedi and Sith in the matters of power progression.
Luke's confrontation with Lord Nyax took place AFTER an event that indicates that Luke have already grown immensely powerful in the ways of the Force; successfully manipulating an (artificial) black hole created by Yuuzhan Vong to use it against its creators. Based on this observation, it is safe to assume that Luke had already approached high-end spectrum of his "progression arc" in power prior to confrontation with Lord Nyax.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
That aside, you cannot establish that Vitiate > Nyax,
Originally posted by Skybreaker
but I can point out that;1. Vitiate has no counter to Luke's prowess with a lightsaber
Originally posted by Skybreaker
2. Luke has resisted the mental influence of Abeloth
Originally posted by Skybreaker
3. Luke's black hole feat, fortress destruction feat, super massive black hole feat, and performance in TUF outstrip by miles anything Vitiate has ever demonstrated in an actual combative context.
Also, I don't see the relevance of these feats with Luke's prowess in combative situations; combative situations are more demanding then other situations in which Luke can afford full concentration.
Nonetheless, Vitiate's successful purge of an entire rebellious Dark Council with a single blast of power is greatest display of power in combative situation in the mythos thus far.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Vitiate is way, way down the totem pole next to Skywalker.
Originally posted by Raptor22
i think u have the encounters a little mixed up.
Originally posted by Raptor22
He never overwhelmed lukes will,
"I don't know if you can understand me," Luke said. "But whatever you're doing, whatever your plans are, I have to stop you."
Lord Nyax's smile grew broader. It seemed to recognize Luke's intent, even if it could not grasp his words.
Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse. In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,
He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.
But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty. He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.
He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."
Source: The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines II - Rebel Stand
---
Green = Nyax's telepathic offense in the works
Blue = Luke getting overwhelmed momentarily
Red = Luke regains focus and power to resist from Mara after connecting with her
Originally posted by Raptor22
and when the 3 joined it was only to break their paralysis, luke had already blocked his mental influence.
In the second attempt, Nyax froze the Jedi Strike Team with his telepathic influence but Tahiri proved to be more resilient in this aspect then Luke and Mara and broke the freeze, charging towards Nyax. During this moment, Luke somehow found the strength to use the Force offensively against Nyax by throwing debris towards him.
However, the Jedi eventually broke the paralysis with their combined might and effort:
Luke came up on shaky legs, felt Mara doing the same. And though Nyax was not letting up on the pain-energy, it affected Luke less now. He could feel Tahiri's part in that, the way she opened herself to the pain, was not daunted by it, was not shut down by it.
They faced Nyax as a single creature. The part of them that was Mara rejected the false truths Nyax tried to impose upon them. The part of them that was Luke rejected the false hatreds, the lying enmities. The part that was Tahiri made the pain part of what they were, a fuel for their strength.
Nyax looked between them, and a flicker of distress, a childlike expression of fear, crossed his features.
Source: The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines II - Rebel Stand
Originally posted by Raptor22
Nyax tried his mental voodoo on luke 4 times. The first he surprised an exhausted luke and tried to make him walk off a cliff, but luke saw thru it."Luke unlatched the viewports locks. All he had to do was step out on the walkway that now stretched between this building and the other. He could walk right up to this man and begin asking questions. But some faint stirring of alarm-his pilots ability to glimpse and memorize topographical details-shook him out of the fog that overcame his thinking."
The second he tried forcing luke to join him. That didnt work either.
"But the sight of her brought back memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty. He saw his son, composed of luke and mara and years to come. Around the edges of lord nyax's command he felt the force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed."
"He turned back toward lord nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought." "I stand in your way."The third was the pain/paralysis attack. This is the one where tahiri was able to attack due to a distraction. U were right about that but didnt mention that it was luke hitting him with a rock that was the distraction.
"And though luke couldnt move, he could act. He reached out thru the force and grabbed the stone that nyax had tried to use against him earlier. He jerked it towards his enemy."
"And though he was weakened by pain, by distraction, it flew those meters and slammed into nyax's back, driving him forward, and slamming him off his feet."The fourth time he tried to make luke kill tahiri but he blocked it. The 3 joining only helped luke overcome the pain so he could move.
"Then Nyax drove another thought into lukes brain: kill tahiri."
"This time luke was ready for it.hed had a moment to center his thoughts, and, most important, his emotions. He was ready with his memories of tahiri, all the times shed been delighted as shed made another gain in her study of the force, all the hopes hed had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakkn Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
Also, in comparison to Nyax, Vitiate is much more intense in his telepathic exertion:
As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.
Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.
It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.
Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Indeed;
The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."😉
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Every mortal experiences a "progression arc." An individual tends to peak in physical fitness and raw power during young age but compensates for decline in fitness with experience during old age.Palpatine is a practitioner of dark arts, he was interested in cheating death and becoming more powerful by honing his talents in unnatural abilities such as immortality and Force Drain.
It isn't wise to compare Jedi and Sith in the matters of power progression.
You see, you sort of get somewhere with an argument (sith progress in power differently -> sith peak later?), but then deliberately fail to actually elaborate on it, and explain how wanting to cheat death and use unnatural abilities somehow delays one's power progression. If anything, the fact that, his body not being ravaged by the dark side, Luke would not have had to compensate for as drastic a physical decline and given that Luke's training was far more sporadic and disorganized, combined with Luke's higher ceiling, would make Luke peak later than Palpatine. The burden is on you to establish that he would peak at half the age that Palpatine was still growing stronger.
Luke's confrontation with Lord Nyax took place AFTER an event that indicates that Luke have already grown immensely powerful in the ways of the Force; successfully manipulating an (artificial) black hole created by Yuuzhan Vong to use it against its creators. Based on this observation, it is safe to assume that Luke had already approached high-end spectrum of his "progression arc" in power prior to confrontation with Lord Nyax.
This logic doesn't fly. That Luke has already grown "immensely powerful" does not at all suggest that he has peaked. This is as absurd as non sequitur as I've read.
Read this profile: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/
Yeah, it's not my job to try to extrapolate your own arguments from links you provide me. I don't know what arguments or contentions you are particularly making, or what logic you're trying to connect your evidence with. Laziness aside, you'll have to actually try to present your own claims and only use links to present evidence.
Vitiate doesn't needs a lightsaber to handle opposition.
Because he usually just kills them with the Force. He is not so powerful that he can just kill Luke with the Force. Palpatine still had to engage him in lightsaber combat.
Luke certainly rates very high in willpower aspect but have limits, apparent from his confrontation with Nyax.
Irrelevant. You haven't demonstrated that Vitiate could overpower him.
Among the list of feats you mentioned, super black hole related is hyperbole.
No, it is not. Anybody who has actually read the text a little more deeply would realize that the author was going to extreme lengths to emphasize the absolute nature of his immovability. But somehow, I don't think a discussion with you on this subject matter will be very fruitful. I guess you would be able to understand that even a figurative feat of that nature is more impressive than the defensive abilities of anyone Vitiate's ever overpowered.
Also, I don't see the relevance of these feats with Luke's prowess in combative situations; combative situations are more demanding then other situations in which Luke can afford full concentration.
Clearly Luke can afford full concentration in a combative context. You have fallen for the fallacy of only focusing on what one character is going to do during the fight and assuming the other is just going to sit there. As if Luke couldn't use emerald lightning, or saber throw, or fold space, or cast illusions, or use TK of his own. The difference is, Luke can fight at a distance and up close, and he has demonstrated vastly superior abilities in both. His black hole feat is far beyond anything Vitiate's ever done.
Nonetheless, Vitiate's successful purge of an entire rebellious Dark Council with a single blast of power is greatest display of power in combative situation in the mythos thus far.
This is pure bullsh*t. Palpatine has destroyed capital ships in a combative situation; Luke has taken on someone with the combined Force potential of an entire colony who could bend turbolasers. But let's not pretend that Vitiate did not have prep during his dark council feat, given that he uses this mysterious flash that he never exercises whenever the heroes encounter him.
I think the Unuthul example is key, because it shows an example of Luke taking on an entity that may have actually been more powerful than him in the Force, certainly one with capabilities beyond Vitiate's own. But Luke still won quite decisively, because he has the combative abilities to win even in the rare instances where he is disadvantaged at raw power. Vitiate has only his strength in the Force, and when someone matches or exceeds it, he is rendered helpless. Even one who sort-of approaches his strength can give him pause with just the most minor combative competence (see: Revan).
I disagree.
You've never addressed Luke's black hole feat, his superior combat abilities, or the fact that he is, by powerscaling, superior to Palpatine, the most powerful sith. You've just made vague references to Vitiate's power, but you haven't offered a metric of comparison to Luke's.
WTF can Vitiate do to Luke? Mind domination? Luke's seen it before. Lightning? Luke has his own, capable of killing Vong that aren't even supposed to be susceptible to the Force, and he was capable enough in his defenses that Palpatine never thought to try to overpower him. TK? Luke's is far superior, and he resisted a push from a guy who could bend turbolasers.
Meanwhile, what can Luke do to Vitiate? His TK is superior. He is faster, he can fold space, he can read shatterpoints, and he is infinitely more dangerous up close. Luke wins this.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
You see, you sort of get somewhere with an argument (sith progress in power differently -> sith peak later?), but then deliberately fail to actually elaborate on it, and explain how wanting to cheat death and use unnatural abilities somehow delays one's power progression. If anything, the fact that, his body not being ravaged by the dark side, Luke would not have had to compensate for as drastic a physical decline and given that Luke's training was far more sporadic and disorganized, combined with Luke's higher ceiling, would make Luke peak later than Palpatine. The burden is on you to establish that he would peak at half the age that Palpatine was still growing stronger.
Palpatine was focused on finding a solution to counter the toll of dark side practices on his body, his motive was to eliminate his dependency upon physical bodies for sustenance and power and cheat death in this manner. Palpatine is not a valid analog to explain Luke's power progression.
Luke swiftly grew in power during his younger days; as of DE, he was collapsing AT-ATs and structures; as of NJO, he was manipulating (artificial) black holes. However, Luke's power progression began to slow down since NJO period, FOTJ incarnation isn't miles ahead of NJO incarnation, in-fact, Luke's power progression since NJO period is rather implied, not established.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
This logic doesn't fly. That Luke has already grown "immensely powerful" does not at all suggest that he has peaked. This is as absurd as non sequitur as I've read.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, it's not my job to try to extrapolate your own arguments from links you provide me. I don't know what arguments or contentions you are particularly making, or what logic you're trying to connect your evidence with. Laziness aside, you'll have to actually try to present your own claims and only use links to present evidence.
Vitiate >>> Nyax
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Because he usually just kills them with the Force. He is not so powerful that he can just kill Luke with the Force. Palpatine still had to engage him in lightsaber combat.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Irrelevant. You haven't demonstrated that Vitiate could overpower him.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
No, it is not. Anybody who has actually read the text a little more deeply would realize that the author was going to extreme lengths to emphasize the absolute nature of his immovability. But somehow, I don't think a discussion with you on this subject matter will be very fruitful. I guess you would be able to understand that even a figurative feat of that nature is more impressive than the defensive abilities of anyone Vitiate's ever overpowered.
A super black hole is so much more powerful then the black holes created by Vong that even a hint of a comparison between them is silly.
An argument without logic will not be very fruitful against me. Yes.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Clearly Luke can afford full concentration in a combative context.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
You have fallen for the fallacy of only focusing on what one character is going to do during the fight and assuming the other is just going to sit there. As if Luke couldn't use emerald lightning, or saber throw, or fold space, or cast illusions, or use TK of his own. The difference is, Luke can fight at a distance and up close, and he has demonstrated vastly superior abilities in both. His black hole feat is far beyond anything Vitiate's ever done.
Luke sat on a seat and performed this feat in a meditative state during which he summoned his full strength to fulfill his objective.
Of-course, Luke is immensely competent in ways of the Force. I consider him to be powerful and talented enough to challenge Vitiate and even have a shot at defeating the latter in single combat, which is really big. However, I am also open to the possibility of Luke loosing to Vitiate in single combat which doesn't belittles Luke in any way or form, it is just that Vitiate is that damn good.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
This is pure bullsh*t. Palpatine has destroyed capital ships in a combative situation; Luke has taken on someone with the combined Force potential of an entire colony. But let's not pretend that Vitiate did not have prep during his dark council feat, given that he uses this mysterious flash that he never exercises whenever the heroes encounter him.
UnuThul? I don't find him very impressive.
The so-called prep is implied, not established. More importantly, do not forget that Vitiate continued to grow in power with passage of time.
As far as Vitiate's actions are concerned, they are subject to PIS from authors in written literature. In a versus thread, we can take Vitiate's tactical genius and supreme capabilities in to consideration without having to rely upon constraints imposed via PIS.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
You've never addressed Luke's black hole feat, his superior combat abilities, or the fact that he is, by powerscaling, superior to Palpatine, the most powerful sith. You've just made vague references to Vitiate's power, but you haven't offered a metric of comparison to Luke's.
Also, don't give me "most powerful" argument for Palpatine. I don't want to turn this debate in to a needless contest of "most powerful" characters of the mythos. I have pointed out before that "most powerful" rankings in Star Wars are subjective even at official capacity.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith do not peak later then Jedi. In-fact, Sith are more focused on the matters of power progression then Jedi.
My point. Palpatine is in his 80s and hasn't peaked. He had more intensive training than Luke. He had a lower ceiling. There is no reason why Luke would peak in his 40s.
Palpatine was focused on finding a solution to counter the toll of dark side practices on his body, his motive was to eliminate his dependency upon physical bodies for sustenance and power and cheat death in this manner. Palpatine is not a valid analog to explain Luke's power progression.
Fine, let's ignore that what you just said is complete bullsh*t. Take another example; Count Dooku is still growing stronger well into his 70s/80s, by the RotS novelization. Mace Windu grows stronger into his 50s. Vader grows stronger throughout the original trilogy, as per the novelizations. Somebody with Luke's ridiculous Force potential, who started late and had only sporadic training in his early years, would not have peaked in his 40s.
Luke swiftly grew in power during his younger days; as of DE, he was collapsing AT-ATs and structures; as of NJO, he was manipulating (artificial) black holes. However, Luke's power progression began to slow down since NJO period, FOTJ incarnation isn't miles ahead of NJO incarnation, in-fact, Luke's power progression since NJO period is rather implied, not established.
You just restate your assertion with more words, but still fail to provide any sort of justification for it. I could buy that the gap between NJO Luke and LotF Luke is smaller than the gap between NJO Luke and DE Luke, but that hardly means that he's reached his peak at such a young age.
What's more, it doesn't really matter; the Luke Skywalker of TUF is already far more powerful than Vitiate, and likely the most powerful conventional Force user in galactic history.
The profile that I cited contains detailed information about Vitiate, sufficient to evaluate him. You need to read it before making bold statements such as "That aside, you cannot establish that Vitiate > Nyax."Vitiate >>> Nyax
No, you still don't get it. Establishing Vitiate's abilities is one half of the coin; you have to compare his abilities with Nyax's. Just throwing out sources in a vacuum does not make yourself a substantive argument.
Why not? Is Luke invincible?
What a silly strawman; Luke is not invincible, but he has demonstrated greater power, greater combative ability and greater tactical acumen to Vitiate.
Vitiate have demonstrated powers that were sufficient to down even Strike Teams of some of the strongest Jedi and Sith without breaking a sweat. I don't get the perception that Luke would somehow tank everything thrown at him.
"the strongest Jedi and Sith" <<<< Luke Skywalker. Vitiate is powerful, but his tactics and combat skills are crap. Meetra Surik disarms him with a last second lightsaber throw that could have killed him had she aimed at his body. This is not a sign of someone with very good tactical awareness. When Revan knocks Vitiate's lightning back at him, he is caught unawares and knocked on his ass, prompting a hate filled scream. He obviously is not used to actually having to fight anyone, and only got away with it because he was still massively more powerful than Revan.
He is not, however, massively more powerful than someone who can manipulate dorvin bassals, crush and rebuild fortresses, and effortlessly Force pin someone more powerful than Darth Vader to his chair.
Some authors tend to mix hyperbole with the narrative to make it more exciting for the readers. Luke was stretched to his limits when he manipulated an artificially created black hole to use it against its creators. To imply that he somehow have the strength to handle the power of a super black hole is too much of an exaggeration.
Luke has grown stronger, and there's a pretty big difference between manipulating something and just standing against it.
More to the point, the obvious intention of the passage was to demonstrate that Luke had the ability to make himself literally immovable. "the very essence of an immovable object" + progressively ludicrous statements obviously have such an effect.
If he somehow gets sufficient time. In combat situations, finding time to perform meditative actions is virtually impossible without support of allies.
WTF? Why do you need "meditative actions" to give a fight full concentration...during a fight? 🙄
Do you even know how Luke performed black hole manipulation feat?Luke sat on a seat and performed this feat in a meditative state during which he summoned his full strength to fulfill his objective.
Yeah, and let's pretend that Vitiate never used prep or nexuses to perform any of the feats you love to adulate him for.
Never mind the fact that Vitiate has never replicated Luke's upper end feats, even on nexuses and with all the time in the world to meditate.
Of-course, Luke is immensely competent in ways of the Force. I consider him to be powerful and talented enough to challenge Vitiate and even have a shot at defeating the latter in single combat, which is really big. However, I am also open to the possibility of Luke loosing to Vitiate in single combat which doesn't belittles Luke in any way or form, it is just that Vitiate is that damn good.
Vitiate is not that damn good. You have yet to demonstrate a single area in which Vitiate actually holds an advantage over Skywalker. In close quarters, he's obviously hopelessly outmatched. In raw power, the most comparable medium we can use is telekinesis, and Luke's is evidently far superior.
Palpatine didn't just wave a hand and the ships fell apart, he apparently summoned Force Storm while he was having a talk with the Jedi. In-fact, it is not even clear that exactly when Palpatine had summoned a Force Storm during the entire tenure of his confrontation with the Skywalkers. Do keep in mind that Force Storm is slow to materialize and expand.
Luke was helpless to stop him until he had the help of both Leia and the unborn Anakin Solo.
UnuThul? I don't find him very impressive.
He can bend turbolasers and mind dominate practically anyone, by virtue of having the combined Force potential of the entire killik species.
The so-called prep is implied, not established. More importantly, do not forget that Vitiate continued to grow in power with passage of time.
Who cares? Unless you refute the implication, it's obvious that Vitiate couldn't just arbitrarily pull this off at his leisure, so it's a useless feat. A useless feat, mind you, that Skywalker could likely replicate. He would be more than a match for the Revan era dark council.
Yes, Vitiate grew stronger after the novel. This hardly suggests that TOR Vitiate > prepped Revan Vitiate, especially given that the former does not use this mysterious flash to deal with any of the strike teams he comes against.
As far as Vitiate's actions are concerned, they are subject to PIS from authors in written literature. In a versus thread, we can take Vitiate's tactical genius and supreme capabilities in to consideration without having to rely upon constraints imposed via PIS.
🙄 Well, fine then, Luke Skywalker obviously instakills, because he just fold spaces his lightsaber into Vitiate's cranium. This is actually a far more sensible argument, because we know that Luke can fold space, and we see this in the actual narrative, instead of just vaguely hearing about a random flash of light. Game, set, match.
See above.Also, don't give me "most powerful" argument for Palpatine. I don't want to turn this debate in to a needless contest of "most powerful" characters of the mythos. I have pointed out before that "most powerful" rankings in Star Wars are subjective even at official capacity.
It's not subjective at all, and you cannot dismiss evidence because you personally find it inconvenient. All contradicting reference to Vitiate's own status use the present participle and clearly do not refer to Palpatine's time. You may have grounds to dismiss the accolades if they were so grossly contradicting to the actual canon (ie, if an encyclopedia claimed that Agen Kolar is stronger in the Force than Palpatine), but Sidious's Force Storms, along with his ridiculous plethora of feats and accompanying accolades, do not give you the grounds to dismiss the various canon statements in favor of his status as the most powerful sith lord of all time.
Let us summarize, since a lot of points sort of get passed over in your reply.
1. Whenever Vitiate encounters someone he can't immediately overpower with the Force, he falters, makes tactical blunders, and generally shows a complete lack of experience with actual combat.
2. Luke's upper end feats in the Force outstrip anything an unprepped Vitiate can do, seeing as how you haven't actually provided any comparable feats to Vitiate's side.
3. The moment Vitiate finds himself within close quarters with Luke, he's dead. Which means he has to keep the battle at a distance the entire fight, while Luke is comfortable winning at any range.
4. Skywalker is more powerful than Palpatine, who is, by multiple official sources, the most powerful sith lord in galactic history.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
^and this isn't "harassment", hypocrite king?
^try all the witty comebacks you want; we both know what I said is true, and that your trolling on these boards don't compensate for your romantic failures. I don't have to phrase it cleverly; I think the insult sticks quite well, because it's 100% accurate. 😆
I love how you didn't bother to deny it, btw.