Can Super Saiyan 3 be perfected?

Originally posted by juggerman
The only way I see it being "perfected" is by Broly. If his power perpetually increases like it did in his first movie, or the way Dragon Ball Multiverse has him doing it, it could theoretically counter the drain and keep him in the form.

...Especially when we consider that in the wake of Goku's SSJ3 battles with Fat and Kid Buu, he was left almost completely powerless afterward, despite only using the form for a few minutes each time AND never even using its full power.

So IF we assume Broly would still have energy to spare upon reaching this theoretical 'LSSJ3', then he may be able to cope with the form's stamina-rigors a bit better than Goku(*might* being the key word), but I still don't think him capable of producing energy faster than the form metabolizes it. Thus I believe it would still drain him... And rapidly so.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Galan, I really do think we should put together a Dragonball-con and have you as one of the speakers. It would be a session where you chose like 5 topics to discuss with a panel of DB experts. I'd watch that.

hahaha

Btw, if we go GT, Goku can use SSJ3 for some time there... but *that's* when he's at a point where he's noticeably above Perfect Cell in base mode, so he simply has power to burn.

IIRC, we only saw Goku use SSJ3 in GT in his kid form against Baby Vegeta, and he wasn't even able to sustain the form as long as he did against Kid Buu when he was still an adult.

^ Yeah, Goku distinctly commented that his kid-form was no good for sustaining SSJ3. So even though he was several orders of magnitude MORE powerful in GT than he was in Z, the inherent weakness of SSJ3 was still recognized.

Until his tail popped back.

Yep. The tail was haxx.

In the original manga, USSJ and USSJ2 are referred to as Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 respectively, and Super Saiyan 2 is referred to as Super Saiyan Grade 4 and Super Saiyan 3 is referred to as Super Saiyan Grade 5.

What interesting here is that Full-power Super Saiyan isn't a variation of the Super Saiyan form in the same sense.

My theory is that all Grades come with a drawback; the drawback of Grade 2 and 3 is speed, and the drawback of Grade 4 and 5 is ki drain.

So no, I don't think it can be perfected.

^ That doesn't factor in FPSSJ, though, which didn't sacrifice speed for power. Additionally, SSJ2 really had no drawbacks to speak of--it doubled a SSJ's speed/power, and was sustainable for great lengths of time. T'was honestly a near-perfect transformation, imo.

SSJ3 was completely unique in the absurd rate at which it drained ki. No other form of Super Saiyan comes remotely close to it in that regard. Tbh, I doubt Goku could have even reached SSJ3 with a living body--hence his comment that the form simply isn't supposed to be used anywhere but the afterlife.

That said, SSJ3 certainly gleaned a massive...dare I say "Other Worldly"[😖hifty:]...increase in power(short-lived as it was.) By the time of the Buu saga, a 4x boost was astronomical.

As a USSJ Vegeta didn't seem particularly slow when he was beating Cell to a pulp, it's first when Trunks went USSJ2 that the sacrifice in speed became evident.

Similarly SSJ3 is where the energy drain became evident.

That said, I don't see the FPSSJ as a separate form from SSJ in the same sense that USSJ or SSJ2 were separate forms.

I disagree with a few of those points. ASSJ and USSJ(or 2nd and 3rd Grade Super Saiyans, as you're referring to them) are essentially forcing the power output of the initial SSJ transformation, and thus are not actual transformations themselves. In layman's terms: it's just a normal Super Saiyan who has powered up a lot. That's why Cell noted that the change to USSJ was "easy" to attain:
http://i.imgur.com/WTz55g6.gif
http://i.imgur.com/ByPx0Ct.jpg

And you're right: Vegeta didn't allow his speed to become diminished when he fought Cell, but that's because he never powered up beyond ASSJ(2nd Grade SSJ.) Experience told him that USSJ(3rd Grade SSJ) was a pointless transformation due to the excess musculature that came with it. Conversely, in Trunks' ignorance he powered up to an USSJ without thinking twice, which gleaned him great power, but slowed him down so significantly that he was all but useless in a fight. ASSJ>USSJ.

But yeah, as far as 'power-ups' go, USSJ was the worst by far, and literally had no in-battle benefits at all. At least SSJ3 made Goku a LOT faster/stronger for a brief period of time... It just left him nearly powerless afterward.

IIRC both ASSJ and USSJ also had a more significant power drain than the base form, just not to near the same extent as the later SSJ3. USSJ double-whammied wasting power with being slow as Hell (I like to think it was the density of form's ki in their body and the newfound inflexibility of its user's bodies that slowed USSJ, and not something dumb like just being too big to be fast).

Neither of those are separate forms from the SSJ, they're just focused on putting out big power in a small amount of time without any focus on efficiency. FSSJ was so good because it mastered the original SSJ form, and by making it so much easier to control Goku and Gohan could put out far more energy without the strain ASSJ and USSJ had. Like how a vagina needs to get wet before it can take a cucumber.

Originally posted by NemeBro
IIRC both ASSJ and USSJ also had a more significant power drain than the base form, just not to near the same extent as the later SSJ3. USSJ double-whammied wasting power with being slow as Hell (I like to think it was the density of form's ki in their body and the newfound inflexibility of its user's bodies that slowed USSJ, and not something dumb like just being too big to be fast).

Neither of those are separate forms from the SSJ, they're just focused on putting out big power in a small amount of time without any focus on efficiency. FSSJ was so good because it mastered the original SSJ form, and by making it so much easier to control Goku and Gohan could put out far more energy without the strain ASSJ and USSJ had. Like how a vagina needs to get wet before it can take a cucumber.

Originally posted by NemeBro
IIRC both ASSJ and USSJ also had a more significant power drain than the base form, just not to near the same extent as the later SSJ3. USSJ double-whammied wasting power with being slow as Hell (I like to think it was the density of form's ki in their body and the newfound inflexibility of its user's bodies that slowed USSJ, and not something dumb like just being too big to be fast).

The ki-strain was definitely more intense with those stages, however. 👆

Originally posted by NemeBro
Neither of those are separate forms from the SSJ, they're just focused on putting out big power in a small amount of time without any focus on efficiency. FSSJ was so good because it mastered the original SSJ form, and by making it so much easier to control Goku and Gohan could put out far more energy without the strain ASSJ and USSJ had.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Like how a vagina needs to get wet before it can take a cucumber.

The Dragon Ball wiki says that both forms do indeed strain the user's Ki more than the base SSJ form does, but the cocksuckers didn't cite their source.

It definitely isn't as big a drain as SSJ3 though, yeah.

Originally posted by Galan007

But yeah, as far as 'power-ups' go, USSJ was the worst by far, and literally had no in-battle benefits at all. At least SSJ3 made Goku a LOT faster/stronger for a brief period of time... It just left him nearly powerless afterward.

I liked the Dragonball Multiverse comic, where Trunks learned to rapidly switch to and from USSJ, so he'd *move around* at ASSJ level, but then when he was in a position where he could hit without worrying about the opponent dodging, or in a beam-of-war situation, he'd go USSJ for more power.

It has some definite tactical uses, and in a multi-way fight it'd make a lot of sense to use (I mean, consider how the Raditz fight showed in a 2v1 situation, a move that required someone to stand around for a whole minute could be decisive!). It's just poor in a solo fight.

USSJ's only tactical use from the Cell saga onward would be IF your opponent just stood there and allowed you to hit and/or blast them. Aside from that, it was too slow to be of any use. Enormous power, though.

I do like that DBM concept, though. 👆

I don't know, I feel like if I wanted to lift a cliffside and didn't have access to SSJ2, USSJ would be a good form to have.

...Or if you just wanted to intimidate the phuck out of someone. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]USSJ's only tactical use from the Cell saga onward would be IF your opponent just stood there and allowed you to hit and/or blast them. Aside from that, it was too slow to be of any use. Enormous power, though.

There are ways to make that happen, though.

Solar flare, for example. Or have an ally in ASSJ or similar hold them while you punch and work them over.

Still situational, but worth having.

Heck, the end-of-saga beam of war, when everyone was shooting Cell in the back? USSJ then.