Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where I still find myself disagreeing is the idea that Sheev had to fight observably harder to maintain his edge. I didn't see any change in disposition or demeanor until after Maul landed that kick. When Sidious lands, you see him scowl before he makes that final charge and then he overcomes Maul with sheer strength.

Once Maul landed that kick, Sidious was irritated and proceeded to take Maul down pretty quickly. That seems more aligned with Filoni's commentary that Maul and Savage can't even compete with Sheev.

Well sure Maul held his own. But the question becomes is that more attributable to Maul's own prowess or Sidious's restraint? Because the website does confirm that Sheev "toyed with Maul" and Filoni himself implies that lightsabers were superfluous when Sheev decides to just batter the hell out of Maul with TK.

Ultimately I think if Sheev felt he was legitimately pressed in a lightsaber duel, he would use all the advantages at his disposal that he could, like the Force {unless he couldn't use them}.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well sure Maul held his own. But the question becomes is that more attributable to Maul's own prowess or Sidious's restraint? Because the website does confirm that Sheev "toyed with Maul" and Filoni himself implies that lightsabers were superfluous when Sheev decides to just batter the hell out of Maul with TK.

What quote are you referring to for toying, btw? I want to make sure it necessarily refers to the end of the duel as well.

I have no problem with a Raging Maul doing pretty well against Sidious and managing to somewhat keep up with him. Dooku is fast enough and good enough to compete with Yoda for a few dozen seconds in sabers, so it makes sense for a really pissed off Maul to be capable of doing the same with Sidious. But Sidious clearly dominated the fight up to the final clash and "never wavered from his position of superiority". Maul managed that one kick and then Sidious shut him down and that's still pretty impressive.

I think what ILS is saying is that Maul didn't press Sidious, he merely kept up with him. Which I agree with.

Neph, ILS and I are having a mature discussion and we don't have time for your Sidious-hating sheevnanigans. uhuh

btw isn't keeping up w/ someone kinda like competing w/ them?

Pretty much.

Edit; Lol. No sheevnanigans pls.

double edit (someone tell me how to red text too); keeping up doesn't necessarily mean there's a chance of victory, to me, e.g a horse that's clearly going to come second but is still pretty close to the one in front.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, ILS and I are having a mature discussion and we don't have time for your Sidious-hating sheevnanigans. uhuh

btw isn't keeping up w/ someone kinda like competing w/ them?

Doesn't "competing" imply there's a chance of winning?

My point of comparison is Dooku vs Yoda. If you think Dooku competed with Yoda, then that's what Maul did. Personally I'd say it's more that they were good enough that it was an actual fight. I don't think Sidious was toying with Maul in the final clash, but he wasn't pressed either. Maul was keeping up in every sense of the word, it took everything he had to reach the point of fighting Sidious in a legit manner, while Sidious didn't have to push himself at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't "competing" imply there's a chance of winning?

Well yeah, but when you're keeping up with someone, you do have a chance of winning. Unless the person with whom you're keeping up isn't giving all his effort.

Originally posted by Sinious
Maul himself disarmed Savage in their duel after 1 strike. That is not really Sidious' style though. He tricks his enemies into thinking that they have a chance, gives them false hope and sometimes even presents a fake weakness for his opponent to try exploiting it only to find him/herself in a more disadvantageous position at the end.

Kind of speculative don't you think?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You and Nai don't believe they adequately portrayed that; others, myself included, believe it was portrayed just fine.

I don't see how, or at what point that was portrayed. TCW has shown it will show such a thing very clearly: Dooku vs Savage training session. There was a world of difference between that the and Sidious vs Maul
or Sidious vs Maul and Opress.

Only the Sidious vs Opress looked like that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I've never understood the logic that Sidious was "toying with them with TK" but "fighting like hell with Sabers." Never got it. 😬

Problem with this is, if he doesn't display that, then it's all speculation.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because the website does confirm that Sheev "toyed with Maul"

This is the line:

Upon arrival Sidious declared the Sith brothers to be his rivals. In an Intense Duel, he killed Savage and toyed with Maul, ultimately deciding not to kill his former apprentice.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-maul-biography-gallery

It says that after Sidious kills Opress. So I took that as the smacking him around with the Force at the end, which we all could see was clear toying from day 1.

It also says it was an Intense Duel, and that he only Ultimately decided not to kill Maul.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
and Filoni himself implies that lightsabers were superfluous when Sheev decides to just batter the hell out of Maul with TK.

He says once Sidious says "I've had enough of this"

But wouldn't that imply Sidious couldn't just blitzed Maul in Sabers once he had enough?

Isn't that more proof Sidious resorted to Tk every time he was getting frustrated.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ultimately I think if Sheev felt he was legitimately pressed in a lightsaber duel, he would use all the advantages at his disposal that he could, like the Force {unless he couldn't use them}.

Except he did.

He was booted off the balcony, he used Tk to throw them both down. Maul and Opress began to press him together, he used Tk to KO Maul out of the picture. He got fed up of the Saber fight with Maul, he started Force smacking Maul all over the place.

Looks like we're still at impasse, DP. I see nothing that indicates Maul was pressing Sheev. All I see is a blatantly one-sided fight that the Zabraks could never have won.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Kind of speculative don't you think?

The point that's been made has already been proven various times. I'm just explaining why Sidious didn't do what Maul(someone who is proven to be far inferior to Sidiou btw) has done which is taking out Savage after 1 strike.

It's too bad that Maul's best showing in that fight ended up getting cut. He blocks Sidious' lightning and then pins him to the wall with the Force, to the point where Sidious had to resort to crashing the chandelier thingie on Maul, he simply couldn't overpower his Force grip.

As a Maul fan I loved that scene, but I can see why it was cut. No one, not even Yoda, achieved such temporary dominance over Sidious using the Force.

Bandon could.

Originally posted by Sinious
The point that's been made has already been proven various times. I'm just explaining why Sidious didn't do what Maul(someone who is proven to be far inferior to Sidiou btw) has done which is taking out Savage after 1 strike.

Sidious was toying with Opress in their 1 v 1 Saber fight no doubt. That was clearly shown. Very different to the Maul vs Sidious Saber fight.

Also it took Maul 2 strikes, an arm twist and a kick

There isnt anything different. He was still effortlessly toying with Maul. Maul with the rage amp he had managed to land one kick and the moment that happened, Sidious ended the fight(without using a force attack).

Originally posted by Sinious
There isnt anything different.

Huh? They were completely different. Against Opress, Sidious didn't even ignite his Sabers at first, and was just laughing and jumping around.

Maul and Sidious fought back and forth in a non-stop Saber clash, with no sign of Sidious laughing until the very end where he ended it.

Originally posted by Sinious
He was still effortlessly toying with Maul.

At which point? Show me please. Because the only time I saw that was when he started TK' Raping Maul.

Originally posted by Sinious
Maul with the rage amp he had managed to land one kick and the moment that happened, Sidious ended the fight(without using a force attack).

They landed a kick each 😬

And it was another 10 seconds after Maul's kick that Maul was disarmed. Even then the Saber fight wasn't necessarily over but we wouldn't know because Sidious put his Sabers away and began TK stomping.

1. Well I'm the one who brought up Maul vs Savage in the first place and agreed that there is a huge gap between them so obviously I am aware that he was able to humiliate Savage more. However, even when Sidious was facing Maul, he was still in control of the situation and was dominating the fight.

2. Throughout the entire duel, Sidious could end the fight with his force attacks. He chose to keep going and considering how cowardly he can act when he felt in danger yet didn't bother relying on his massive advantage in the force to end the fight, its pretty clear that he was having fun even when fighting them both at the same time. Maul's humiliation stopped after his brother died, but that doesn't mean he had a slight chance of winning no matter how long they kept on going which is all that matters.

3. They were parted after the kick and with the first clash of sabers after that, Sidious disarmed Maul with a saber lock. He didn't rely on his TK. He could've chopped Maul's head off at that point. Nothing suggests that he relied on his superior power to defeat Maul.

Nothing suggests the brothers ever had a chance, even in sabers only. Filoni states time and again the brothers can't compete with Sidious - the only time the laughing and smiling even stops in the final clash with Maul, who is clearly being voraciously empowered by his fury over his brother's death (and Sidious stating that he had been replaced).

That part is somewhat up to discussion, in my opinion. It's interesting to see in the show's version of the fight that even after Maul's kick, Sidious wasn't at any immediate advantage. In fact, when Palpatine and Maul charge at each other and saberlock, Maul is the one who first seems to be at an advantage (in that he's standing above Sidious, not that he's necessarily stronger), and Palpatine (at tremendous effort) overpowers and disarms Maul simultaneously. Then the ragdolling ensues.

Still, the brother's two physical hits on Palpatine were of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, as opposed to nearly every single physical hit that Palpatine landed either flooring or staggering one of the brothers. It's very clear Sidious is the advantageous one even without telekinetic attacks. He manages to change the flow of the fight at any time he so desires (whether physically or with telekinesis), and when the brothers attempt to disrupt his attacks/alter the fight in their favor Sheev simply goes along.

Originally posted by Sinious
However, even when Sidious was facing Maul, he was still in control of the situation and was dominating the fight.

He was in control, because he could end the fight with Tk anytime he liked. And even in Sabers he was better. But I wouldn't say there was a world of difference in Sabers, especially against the Rage enhanced Maul.

Originally posted by Sinious
2. Throughout the entire duel, Sidious could end the fight with his force attacks.

And that's what he did. Ended the 2 v 1 by KOing Maul with Tk. Ended the Maul solo fight by Tk'ing him.

Originally posted by Sinious
its pretty clear that he was having fun even when fighting them both at the same time.

That's fine. But doesn't really "prove" anything except that Sidious wasn't worried at all, and was supremely confident in his ability to win.

Originally posted by Sinious
Maul's humiliation stopped after his brother died, but that doesn't mean he had a slight chance of winning no matter how long they kept on going which is all that matters.

I'm not claiming he had a chance of winning. I'm claiming he did well in the "Sabers" portion of the fight, but was still Sidious's inferior even in that department.

Originally posted by Sinious
3. They were parted after the kick and with the first clash of sabers after that, Sidious disarmed Maul with a saber lock. He didn't rely on his TK. He could've chopped Maul's head off at that point.

Not necessarily, because Maul was out of Sidious's immediate Saber reach once disarmed. But Maul wasn't lying on his ass, and his weapons should have still been within reach (for a Force user). Do i need to start posting the number of times in SW someone temporarily dropped their weapon but still didn't lose the Saber fight?

Originally posted by Sinious
Nothing suggests that he relied on his superior power to defeat Maul.

Except that's exactly what he did. Sids didn't give Maul a couple of Saber slashes to drop him the way Dooku did to Kenobi in AOTC. He didn't put Maul to the ground disarmed of his weapons with his Saber at Maul's throat like Dooku did to Opress in their training session.

Instead the second Maul dropped his weapons, Sidious just Tk'd the crud out of him. (Which is actually backed by Filoni's comments stating that Sidious put his own weapons away and Maul'd Maul once he had enough. Why had he had enough if Maul was already beaten?)

Originally posted by SunRazer
Filoni states time and again the brothers can't compete with Sidious -

I mean he actually says "No one can compete with this guy."

Originally posted by SunRazer
That part is somewhat up to discussion, in my opinion.

👆

Originally posted by SunRazer

Still, the brother's two physical hits on Palpatine were of absolutely no consequence whatsoever,

Never claimed they did. I just highly doubt Sidious purposefully let a Physical Beast like Opress land a physical hit on him. Or let Maul land a kick on him in an intense duel with those dangerous Mechanical legs of his.

Originally posted by SunRazer
as opposed to nearly every single physical hit that Palpatine landed either flooring or staggering one of the brothers.

He certainly put Opress completely down with a kick. But pretty sure Maul tanked/rolled with each kick Sidious gave him.

TBF Filoni was exaggerating when he said no one could compete with Sidious. Mace, Yoda and Talzin could. Duh. 😬

Not even getting into the you know who's.