Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Btw, if anyone does well against Darth Sidious, he's toying with them by principle.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Okaaaay.Just never forget all it took was a Cripple to grab him from behind and shove him down a reactor shaft. Whilst no one as of yet as managed to kill Maul : )
He was toying with Vader.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Okaaaay.Just never forget all it took was a Cripple to grab him from behind and shove him down a reactor shaft. Whilst no one as of yet as managed to kill Maul : )
The_Tempest
You can't troll me son. excellent
But I can clearly troll you. stoned
I don't disagree. In a franchise littered with PIS and ambiguous outcomes, I think this is one of the most straightforward and clear-cut confrontations. Any ambiguity from the scene itself has been removed and utterly flattened by persistent director commentary.
But some people see things differently, I guess.
Are you guys also suggesting Sidious was effortlessly stomping Maul at the climax of their duel? Referring to this section:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't disagree. In a franchise littered with PIS and ambiguous outcomes, I think this is one of the most straightforward and clear-cut confrontations. Any ambiguity from the scene itself has been removed and utterly flattened by persistent director commentary.But some people see things differently, I guess.
That is an excellent point.
Originally posted by ILS
Are you guys also suggesting Sidious was effortlessly stomping Maul at the climax of their duel? Referring to this section:
The only time I interpret "effort" on Sidious's part is that last moment where he and Maul have locked blades and Sidious disarms him.
No one's saying it wasn't a completely one sided fight. Just that Sidious's vast superiority seemed more to do with his Tk abilities than Saber abilities.
In "Sabers" he was shown fending them both off together. Then in the 1 v 1's stomping Opress, and defeating Maul (after a pretty intense fight).
Like Nai rightfully pointed out, if they wanted to portray a complete Saber stompage as well, there was really nothing stopping them portraying that.
A good example would be Dooku's training session with Opress. That was shown as completely one sided in every possible way. And Dooku was also portrayed as clearly toying with his opponent in that scene.
Originally posted by The_TempestI interpret the climax of the duel as Maul fighting better than he ever had before due to the sheer rage induced from Savage's death and Sidious' declaration, and him providing a meaningful enough challenge to land a kick and strain Sids before being overpowered. Mostly due to Sidious' demeanour and manner of fighting taking a much more serious tone than beforehand. The rest of it though, yeah, Sidious was winning clearly and easily.
The only time I interpret "effort" on Sidious's part is that last moment where he and Maul have locked blades and Sidious disarms him.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
A good example would be Dooku's training session with Opress. That was shown as completely one sided in every possible way. And Dooku was also portrayed as clearly toying with his opponent in that scene.
Maul himself disarmed Savage in their duel after 1 strike. That is not really Sidious' style though. He tricks his enemies into thinking that they have a chance, gives them false hope and sometimes even presents a fake weakness for his opponent to try exploiting it only to find him/herself in a more disadvantageous position at the end.
Originally posted by ILS
I interpret the climax of the duel as Maul fighting better than he ever had before due to the sheer rage induced from Savage's death and Sidious' declaration,
Agreed so far.
Originally posted by ILS
and him providing a meaningful enough challenge to land a kick and strain Sids before being overpowered. Mostly due to Sidious' demeanour and manner of fighting taking a much more serious tone than beforehand. The rest of it though, yeah, Sidious was winning clearly and easily.
This is where we disagree. I don't see anything about Sidious's demeanor that changed until Maul kicked him. I agree that when Maul landed that kick, Sidious was miffed. You can actually see Sidious scowl when he lands and charges Maul for that final clash.
But then Sidious ends the fight in the next move. But prior to that, I think he was still goofing off.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No one's saying it wasn't a completely one sided fight. Just that Sidious's vast superiority seemed more to do with his Tk abilities than Saber abilities.In "Sabers" he was shown fending them both off together. Then in the 1 v 1's stomping Opress, and defeating Maul (after a pretty intense fight).
Like Nai rightfully pointed out, if they wanted to portray a complete Saber stompage as well, there was really nothing stopping them portraying that.
A good example would be Dooku's training session with Opress. That was shown as completely one sided in every possible way. And Dooku was also portrayed as clearly toying with his opponent in that scene.
You and Nai don't believe they adequately portrayed that; others, myself included, believe it was portrayed just fine. I've never understood the logic that Sidious was "toying with them with TK" but "fighting like hell with Sabers." Never got it. 😬
Originally posted by The_TempestNeedless to say there was a big change between how he treated Savage and how he treated Maul, but I'd also say there's a difference between how he was treating Maul earlier and at the end. Earlier he's smiling, cackling and so on; enjoying himself. As the fight goes on he's losing interest, indicated by him sighing before KOing Maul and then finishing off Savage in entertaining fashion. When it comes to the big finale, there's no more laughing on Sidious' part, no particularly obvious showboating or gloating; just some very intense swordplay.
Agreed so far.This is where we disagree. I don't see anything about Sidious's demeanor that changed until Maul kicked him. I agree that when Maul landed that kick, Sidious was miffed. You can actually see Sidious scowl when he lands and charges Maul for that final clash.
But then Sidious ends the fight in the next move. But prior to that, I think he was still goofing off.
Now, it's not really possible to know what's going through Sidious' mind at this point, worsened by him draping a hood over his face, but my wager is that while he never at any point thought himself to be at any risk whatsoever, he did have to take Maul seriously as a threat and engage him with a good degree of skill and effort in order to keep outfighting him. Not going all out but enough to maintain his edge.
I'm basically saying he took Maul seriously enough as a threat that he engaged him in a meaningful display of swordsmanship before succinctly neutralizing him as a threat altogether via sheer strength. For what reason he ended the fight in that way and at that moment I can't say.
I mean.. is it so wrong to try and salvage that sweet kick? 😮💨
I don't think we're in deep contention here. I never before considered the idea that Sheev was losing interest in the duel as it went on; it's an interesting notion.
Where I still find myself disagreeing is the idea that Sheev had to fight observably harder to maintain his edge. I didn't see any change in disposition or demeanor until after Maul landed that kick. When Sidious lands, you see him scowl before he makes that final charge and then he overcomes Maul with sheer strength.
Once Maul landed that kick, Sidious was irritated and proceeded to take Maul down pretty quickly. That seems more aligned with Filoni's commentary that Maul and Savage can't even compete with Sheev.