Second Place Sith Lord Battle #3: Darth Caedus vs Vitiate

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, let's not change the subject here. We were specifically talking about how much of Vitiate's domination relies on his ability to charge his attacks. Notably, it's made quite clear in the novel that Revan was forced to try to take a charged blast from Vitiate because [b]the room was too big and he wouldn't have been able to close the distance in time. [/B]

Yeah, I'd avoid going there as well since it will automatically refute your arguments.

Now, explain to me how my pointing out the spatial dimensions of Vitiate's battles is somehow a red herring when this is precisely the reason why he was able to initially overpower Revan. Re-simulate that battle where Palpatine encounters Windu and co., and Vitiate likely dies.

I'm sticking with the text. You're the one making claims and assumptions. You're the one who needs to explain and prove that Vitiate needed the circumstances he was in to achieve victory against his enemies.

The strike team was fairly close to him. Vitiate even got closer to them before the fight. It didnt stop him from dominating them with his FLS.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan had also charged up his power in preperation for defending against the attack, so don't act as if Vitiate was the only one doing that.

😉 If charging up your tutanimus (as if you could actually do that, beyond merely bracing yourself) were proportionally effective to charging up an offensive attack, Vitiate would've been better off attacking from the outset. It obviously doesn't work that way.

But as usual, this has absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed, which is Revan's loss coming largely from his tactical blunder and the setting of the confrontation. Where Palpatine encountered Windu, Vitiate would have died.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
damn mmm

When I win the other argument will my victory be squared I wonder. HAHAHAAHAHAHAHHA!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because that was a fight that Sidious stood a very serious chance of losing. Just like Vitiate with Revan, Scourge, and the Exile.

Vitiate didnt try to run from them so no, not like Vitiate. 😉

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate didnt try to run from them so no, not like Vitiate. 😉

Sidious didn't require outside intervention to attack, either. 😉

There's no getting around this, Sin. I've got you and Neph by the balls. Time to man up and concede.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah, I'd avoid going there as well since it will automatically refute your arguments.

Avoid going where? Your whole b*tching reply was just a cleverly worded well-poisoning, where you try to complain that I treat Vitiate differently from other combatants and do anything but actually address the point, ie, that Vitiate's ability to charge uber-force blasts is contingent on his environment.

I'm sticking with the text. You're the one making claims and assumptions. You're the one who needs to explain and prove that Vitiate needed the circumstances he was in to achieve victory against his enemies.

Yeah, see, I just did "explain and prove that Vitiate needed" those circumstances, and you reply simply by demanding that I explain and prove that Vitiate needed those circumstances, instead of, you know, actually addressing my argument. It's a rhetorical evasion, and nobody's falling for it.

The strike team was fairly close to him. Vitiate even got closer to them before the fight. It didnt stop him from dominating them with his FLS.

Yeah, and it's not as though Caedus is massively superior to anyone on the strike team, or anything. But way to dodge the point again; he needed to charge his attack to overpower Revan, and he will need to do so to overpower Caedus, but he won't be able to do so because Caedus is ridiculously fast. Vitiate's ability to overpower strike teams is irrelevant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So assessing the Exile's Force strength and relative threat level was such a long, arduous mental process that Vitiate did not dare act until Scourge knifed her in the back?

As you said, Vitiate was being super cautious. Plus Revan stood up and Scourge joined them immediately.

Also, Vitiate's behavior could just be explained by bad writing and PIS.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cool story. Vitiate's behavior begs to differ and only serves as proof that Nyriss's standing next to Vitiate is hyperbolic in the extreme. Otherwise, if Vitiate could "easily one-shot" both Meetra and Scourge, he'd have done so rather than wait to act until Scourge betrayed the Jedi.

How can it be hyperbolic in the extreme when we have a direct comparison between her lightning and Vitiate's that proves that Vitiate is actually much more powerful than her? Regardless are you seriously denying that Vitiate could have one-shot Scourge and Meetra despite a less powerful Sith doing so? Nyriss one-shot them both. It's obvious that Vitiate is capable of replicating that, if not one-shotting them both at the same time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's your burden to prove, especially when the text suggests otherwise.

I've already proven that Meetra and Scourge were insects to Vitiate. So my case has been made.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, the text says that he had to evaluate the strength of his "new foe." Foe being singular, referring to the Exile. He knew well enough how powerful Scourge was.

Scourge hadn't reached them at that point. Given that Vitiate addresses him just after Scourge does though, I think it's likely he was considering him at the time. He'd not seen him in action or properly read his mind, so his evaluation of Scourge may have been vague.

Regardless though, Vitiate's behaviour is explained beyond fear of them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps because he wants to justify his decision? Or perhaps because Revan was not destined to defeat Vitiate? Either way, that has no bearing on the trio's power vis a vis Vitiate's.

Perhaps perhaps perhaps. Scourge states the outcome was inevitable and that they would have lost regardless. That's a fact. If the trio had worked together perfectly to pool their power into resisting him they might have had a shot, but that would still require Vitiate to fight poorly and not try to attack them individually or do anything else. I've never denied that possibility. Just that it's highly remote.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Aren't you the one who claims Vitiate is also vastly improved by then?

And vastly weakened. And Scourge would be benefiting from the Dark Temple just as much as him in a fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The text clearly indicates otherwise. And no one claimed the odds were 50/50 or that Vitiate didn't have the advantage in outcome. The bottom line, though, is that you're grossly overstating his odds. That's just a fact, per the book.

Nah. Scourge and Meetra were far, far below him and Revan had been firmly established as no match for him. Vitiate had a much greater chance of victory than they did.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
😉 If charging up your tutanimus (as if you could actually do that, beyond merely bracing yourself) were proportionally effective to charging up an offensive attack, Vitiate would've been better off attacking from the outset. It obviously doesn't work that way.

But as usual, this has absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed, which is Revan's loss coming largely from his tactical blunder and the setting of the confrontation. Where Palpatine encountered Windu, Vitiate would have died.

He obviously could do that:

"Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack."

How does it obviously not work that way? I don't see why it wouldn't be proportionately effective. Vitiate is just more powerful than Revan is and in a direct contest he overpowers him. Until that point Vitiate hadn't seriously attacked Revan like that, he'd just thrown small lightning attacks. The fact is that when Vitiate gets serious, Revan can't resist him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So, to recap:
[list]
[*]The presence of the Exile alone is enough to give Vitiate pause
[*]Scourge sees multiple futures where Revan is triumphant and never gives any suggestion that this outcome is some sort of insignificant minority
[*]Scourge speculates that Vitiate might be stalling for backup
[*]Vitiate himself doesn't contradict Revan's claim that the three of them can take him
[*]Scourge admits that there's no way of determining which future is the case, suggesting a relative parity in odds of outcome
[/list]

That he has an epiphany that the one destined to defeat Vitiate is another Jedi Knight does not preclude the possibility that Revan, the Exile, and Scourge were powerful enough to defeat Vitiate anymore than Anakin's destiny to kill Sidious means that Anakin alone is capable of defeating him.

It's all here, Neph.

You didn't actually refute any of this. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
How does it obviously not work that way? I don't see why it wouldn't be proportionately effective.

Because we clearly see that Vitiate's non-charged attacks couldn't overpower Revan. this suggests it does not work that way. Duh?

Vitiate's half-serious attacks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You didn't actually refute any of this. 😬

Nor you, my points. Vitiate had been established as so far above Meetra and Scourge that he could easily chump them. And he'd established comfortable dominance over Revan. The odds were ever in his favor.

Peace out, bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nor you, my points.

That was a very candid admission; I appreciate it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate had been established as so far above Meetra and Scourge that he could easily chump them. And he'd established comfortable dominance over Revan. The odds were ever in his favor.

Peace out, bro.

Me
And no one claimed the odds were 50/50 or that Vitiate didn't have the advantage in outcome. The bottom line, though, is that you're grossly overstating his odds. That's just a fact, per the book.

👆

No one claimed that the odds weren't favorable to him. But the indisputable fact remains that they stood a decent shot of taking him down.

You need to raise your game, bro. 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That was a very candid admission; I appreciate it.

👆

No one claimed that the odds weren't favorable to him. But the indisputable fact remains that they stood a decent shot of taking him down.

You need to raise your game, bro. 😬

Well actually I think Ant's suggested they weren't, but I never said you had suggested such, I just wanted to make a cool line.

The only thing we're arguing about is how decent a shot they had. You haven't shown anything that indicates why they would have a decent shot, since two of the fighters were laughably outclassed by him and Revan was injured and outmatched. Any indication they did have a good shot was just poorly thought out hogwash on Drews part.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious didn't require outside intervention to attack, either. 😉

There's no getting around this, Sin. I've got you and Neph by the balls. Time to man up and concede.

And Vitiate did?

What kind of concession do you want exactly? I never said the trio didnt stood a chance. As Neph said, Vitiate is well above Revan and the other two are non factors. I wouldn't tag their chances as "decent".

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Avoid going where? Your whole b*tching reply was just a cleverly worded well-poisoning, where you try to complain that I treat Vitiate differently from other combatants and do anything but actually address the point, ie, that Vitiate's ability to charge uber-force blasts is contingent on his environment.

Yeah, see, I just did "explain and prove that Vitiate needed" those circumstances, and you reply simply by demanding that I explain and prove that Vitiate needed those circumstances, instead of, you know, actually addressing my argument. It's a rhetorical evasion, and nobody's falling for it.

You feel like I'm bitching cause I'm exposing your biased opinions and double standards?

Well, you've suggested things. You haven't proven anything still. Its your opinion that Vitiate required that environment to be able to dominate Revan. Perhaps it made it a bit easier for him to take Revan out with his lightning that fast, but nothing suggests that he wouldn't be able to pull off a win with his regular lightning. Besides, Revan eventually got pretty close to him.

Yeah, and it's not as though Caedus is massively superior to anyone on the strike team, or anything. But way to dodge the point again; he needed to charge his attack to overpower Revan, and he will need to do so to overpower Caedus, but he won't be able to do so because Caedus is ridiculously fast. Vitiate's ability to overpower strike teams is irrelevant.

He isnt MASSIVELY superior to ACT 2 HoT. I havent dodged anything. Vitiate charges up his attacks sometimes. Big deal. He can do it fast enough to keep his enemies at a distance and no Vitiate's strike team domination is surely not irrelevant. Has the OP said anything like "the opponents start with a 1 meter distance" or something like that?Cause just a bit of distance is all he needs buddy.

And of course, Caedus turning it into a saber duel doesn't end it automatically. Vitiate has managed to duel very capable combatants and he even when weakened can push the opponent back at a distance again.

Caedus is solidly above any HoT, though, unless they get more feats in the near future, which I doubt will be anytime soon.

Dunno, Act III HoT did resist Sel Makor in the heart of his power. And Sel Makor is a godlike entity capable of unleashing planet-wide annihilation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate's half-serious attacks.

...lol yeah, keep grasping at straws Neph.

Originally posted by Sinious
You feel like I'm bitching cause I'm exposing your biased opinions and double standards?

You've "exposed" nothing; you've flung out ridiculous accusations in place of actually debating the subject matter.

Well, you've suggested things. You haven't proven anything still.

^my point exactly. You decide to ignore all supporting logic and evidence provided for an assertion by just smugly declaring that nobody's provided any supporting logic or evidence for said assertion. 🙄

Its your opinion that Vitiate required that environment to be able to dominate Revan.

Oh please, what are we, kindergarteners again? My "opinion" has been supported with warrants that you've decided to pretend do not exist. Go back and actually address them, and quit playing this game.

Perhaps it made it a bit easier for him to take Revan out with his lightning that fast, but nothing suggests that he wouldn't be able to pull off a win with his regular lightning.

Oh, nothing? Nothing but the fact that Revan knocked his regular lightning back at him, and put him on his ass with it?

He isnt MASSIVELY superior to ACT 2 HoT.

Because you say so?

I havent dodged anything.

You've tried to.

Vitiate charges up his attacks sometimes. Big deal. He can do it fast enough to keep his enemies at a distance and no Vitiate's strike team domination is surely not irrelevant. Has the OP said anything like "the opponents start with a 1 meter distance" or something like that?Cause just a bit of distance is all he needs buddy.

It took him enough time for Revan to deactivate his lightsaber, hold his hands in front of him and gather his own energy.

And of course, Caedus turning it into a saber duel doesn't end it automatically. Vitiate has managed to duel very capable combatants and he even when weakened can push the opponent back at a distance again.

Ooohhh, he's managed to duel "very capable combatants"! 🙄

Emperor Vitiate solidly