Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate himself hesitates when confronted with all three. We've been over this. No one's saying that the odds were 50/50, but yes, they definitely had a shot at the title. It's all there, black and white, and your bias doesn't change that.
Because he's evaluating them and doesn't know how good they are. If he'd have immediately blasted them Scourge and Meetra would have died. It doesn't mean anything.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Tulak Hord, Nihilus and Exar Kun are strong contenders as well, in some people's opinion.
Tulak Hord hasn't done shit, and I think, if anything, the TOR encyclopedia makes it clear that Vitiate is more powerful than any jedi or sith that has lived up to that point.
Plagueis is the best candidate for the number 2 spot, both for his feats and for the fact that the back of the hardcover clearly labels him the most powerful sith lord (presumably before Palpatine) that has ever lived.
Originally posted by Sinious
LMAO I still don't read anything relevant to Revan/Vitiate's power comparison in these arguments. Just hiding behind pure PIS. Vitiate could've sent his full powered lightning in the beginning and eliminate Revan right away if you wanna go there. Then he could easily kill Scourge and Meetra too.
Vitiate had to charge his lightning in order to overwhelm Revan, who, instead of taking advantage of Vitiate's initial predicament to charge forward and close the gap, just stood there and gave him time to get on his feet. Again, it was a pretty pathetic moment from someone that was otherwise known for his tactical insights.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he's evaluating them and doesn't know how good they are. If he'd have immediately blasted them Scourge and Meetra would have died. It doesn't mean anything.
This begs for proof. Vitiate is an extraordinarily powerful adept with a ridiculous home turf advantage, he's encountered Scourge before {psychically raped him, remember?}, and just went toe-to-toe with Revan moments before. The only "unknown" element is the Exile.
Revan
Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.Meetra had placed herself between the Emperor and Revan, valiantly protecting her wounded friend. As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp.
The three of them stood side by side, two Jedi and a Sith Lord against the Emperor.
“I expected better from you, Lord Scourge,” the Emperor said.
Scourge wondered if he was stalling for time so his Guard could break through the sealed door. There wasn’t much chance of that, however; by the time they broke into the throne room the battle would already be decided, one way or the other.
“He has seen the depths of your evil,” Revan declared. “He stands with us now.”
“Then he will die with you, as well.”
“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”
“That remains to be seen,” the Emperor replied.
For Scourge, the universe suddenly seemed frozen in place, as if time itself had stopped. He realized he was at a crux in history; fate and destiny would be forever altered in the next few moments.
The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.
The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward, ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had to make his choice.
In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi … but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith Lord knew what he had to do.
Instead of advancing with his two companions, Scourge stepped to the side so that he was standing directly behind Meetra. There was a flicker in his consciousness as the universe snapped back to full speed, and he slid the blade of his lightsaber between her shoulders.
Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.
So, to recap:
[list]
[*]The presence of the Exile alone is enough to give Vitiate pause
[*]Scourge sees multiple futures where Revan is triumphant and never gives any suggestion that this outcome is some sort of insignificant minority
[*]Scourge speculates that Vitiate might be stalling for backup
[*]Vitiate himself doesn't contradict Revan's claim that the three of them can take him
[*]Scourge admits that there's no way of determining which future is the case, suggesting a relative parity in odds of outcome
[/list]
That he has an epiphany that the one destined to defeat Vitiate is another Jedi Knight does not preclude the possibility that Revan, the Exile, and Scourge were powerful enough to defeat Vitiate anymore than Anakin's destiny to kill Sidious means that Anakin alone is capable of defeating him.
It's all here, Neph.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Vitiate had to charge his lightning in order to overwhelm Revan, who, instead of taking advantage of Vitiate's initial predicament to charge forward and close the gap, just stood there and gave him time to get on his feet. Again, it was a pretty pathetic moment from someone that was otherwise known for his tactical insights.
You keep assuming that it takes like 2 thousand years for Vitiate to charge his attack. Whenever he charged his attacks, he managed to unleash them before his opponent could reach him in time which suggests that he is fast enough to unleash devastating attacks. Your desire to lowball him due to this doesn't mean anything. Besides, this:
Revan specifically says he couldn't make it to Vitiate in time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan specifically says he couldn't make it to Vitiate in time. 😬
After Vitiate had already sprung to his feat, before which Revan had just been standing there.
Originally posted by Sinious
You keep assuming that it takes like 2 thousand years for Vitiate to charge his attack. Whenever he charged his attacks, he managed to unleash them before his opponent could reach him in time which suggests that he is fast enough to unleash devastating attacks. Your desire to lowball him due to this doesn't mean anything.
It's not as though he always conveniently encounters his enemies in large rooms with forewarning of their arrival, usually resides in a DS nexus, and typically stalls for time with speeches, or anything.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
It's not as though he always conveniently encounters his enemies in large rooms with forewarning of their arrival, usually resides in a DS nexus, and typically stalls for time with speeches, or anything.
Wow so much BS in one post. I somehow respect S66's or Tempest's arguments on Vitiate(at least when they don't just rely on nexus argument) but you just keep treating Vitiate differently in every argument. Does anyone who has a conversation before a fight tries to stall? Does every combatant who knows the opponent's coming has prep? No. Its just Vitiate for some reason. 😂
Originally posted by Sinious
@TempestNone of that suggests that this is due to overall power. Revan by himself managed to be a lethal threat to Vitiate no one's denying that but its more due to Vitiate's overconfidence and perhaps due to Revan temporarily reaching a more pure level in the force.
Ah, we've gone from Revan would be stomped by Vitiate to an admission that he was "a lethal threat" to Vitiate. Progress! excellent
But yes it most certainly does suggest power and skill. Revan even boasts that united they are "stronger" than he, which Vitiate takes care not to arrogantly contradict.
Unless your argument is that, in the hypothetical ensuing fight, Vitiate would unlearn the lesson he just experienced from tangling with Revan and fight stupidly and arrogantly against all three.
Which is contradicted by the fact that the passage makes it very clear that Vitiate is playing super-cautious now.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This begs for proof. Vitiate is an extraordinarily powerful adept with a ridiculous home turf advantage, he's encountered Scourge before {psychically raped him, remember?}, and just went toe-to-toe with Revan moments before. The only "unknown" element is the Exile.
Yeah and that's why he hesitated.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
So, to recap:
[list]
[*]The presence of the Exile alone is enough to give Vitiate pause
Nyriss, who was infinitely less powerful than Vitiate, one-shot the Exile easily. She gave Vitiate pause only because of he didn't know her. Seriously, Vitiate can easily one-shot both Meetra and Scourge. They only serve as distractions for him and possibly letting Revan get in close enough. Still a highly remote chance though.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[*]Scourge sees multiple futures where Revan is triumphant and never gives any suggestion that this outcome is some sort of insignificant minority
Which doesn't preclude it from being one.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[*]Scourge speculates that Vitiate might be stalling for backup
Hurr durr.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[*]Vitiate himself doesn't contradict Revan's claim that the three of them can take him
Because he doesn't know how good Meetra and Scourge are.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[*]Scourge admits that there's no way of determining which future is the case, suggesting a relative parity in odds of outcome
[/list]
He later says that they would have lost regardless. And in TOR he doesn't dare face a weakened Vitiate alongside the Hero despite being far greater than he was in Revan.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That he has an epiphany that the one destined to defeat Vitiate is another Jedi Knight does not preclude the possibility that Revan, the Exile, and Scourge were powerful enough to defeat Vitiate anymore than Anakin's destiny to kill Sidious means that Anakin alone is capable of defeating him.It's all here, Neph.
The possibility did exist, but Scourge and Meetra were so far below Vitiate that theres little chance of them effecting the outcome much and Revan obviously couldn't take Vitiate on for very long, particularly with his injury. A sensible evaluation of the odds shows them to be highly in Vitiate's favor.
Originally posted by Sinious
Wow so much BS in one post. I somehow respect S66's or Tempest's arguments on Vitiate(at least when they don't just rely on nexus argument) but you just keep treating Vitiate differently in every argument. Does anyone who has a conversation before a fight tries to stall? Does every combatant who knows the opponent's coming has prep? No. Its just Vitiate for some reason. 😂
Yeah, let's not change the subject here. We were specifically talking about how much of Vitiate's domination relies on his ability to charge his attacks. Notably, it's made quite clear in the novel that Revan was forced to try to take a charged blast from Vitiate because the room was too big and he wouldn't have been able to close the distance in time. Now, explain to me how my pointing out the spatial dimensions of Vitiate's battles is somehow a red herring when this is precisely the reason why he was able to initially overpower Revan. Re-simulate that battle where Palpatine encounters Windu and co., and Vitiate likely dies.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah and that's why he hesitated.
So assessing the Exile's Force strength and relative threat level was such a long, arduous mental process that Vitiate did not dare act until Scourge knifed her in the back?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nyriss, who was infinitely less powerful than Vitiate, one-shot the Exile easily. She gave Vitiate pause only because of he didn't know her. Seriously, Vitiate can easily one-shot both Meetra and Scourge. They only serve as distractions for him and possibly letting Revan get in close enough. Still a highly remote chance though.
Cool story. Vitiate's behavior begs to differ and only serves as proof that Nyriss's standing next to Vitiate is hyperbolic in the extreme. Otherwise, if Vitiate could "easily one-shot" both Meetra and Scourge, he'd have done so rather than wait to act until Scourge betrayed the Jedi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't preclude it from being one.
That's your burden to prove, especially when the text suggests otherwise.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hurr durr.
Without question, this is the smartest part of your entire post.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he doesn't know how good Meetra and Scourge are.
No, the text says that he had to evaluate the strength of his "new foe." Foe being singular, referring to the Exile. He knew well enough how powerful Scourge was.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He later says that they would have lost regardless.
Perhaps because he wants to justify his decision? Or perhaps because Revan was not destined to defeat Vitiate? Either way, that has no bearing on the trio's power vis a vis Vitiate's.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And in TOR he doesn't dare face a weakened Vitiate alongside the Hero despite being far greater than he was in Revan.
Aren't you the one who claims Vitiate is also vastly improved by then?
Originally posted by Nephthys
The possibility did exist, but Scourge and Meetra were so far below Vitiate that theres little chance of them effecting the outcome much and Revan obviously couldn't take Vitiate on for very long, particularly with his injury. A sensible evaluation of the odds shows them to be highly in Vitiate's favor.
The text clearly indicates otherwise. And no one claimed the odds were 50/50 or that Vitiate didn't have the advantage in outcome. The bottom line, though, is that you're grossly overstating his odds. That's just a fact, per the book.
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Yeah, let's not change the subject here. We were specifically talking about how much of Vitiate's domination relies on his ability to charge his attacks. Notably, it's made quite clear in the novel that Revan was forced to try to take a charged blast from Vitiate because [b]the room was too big and he wouldn't have been able to close the distance in time. Now, explain to me how my pointing out the spatial dimensions of Vitiate's battles is somehow a red herring when this is precisely the reason why he was able to initially overpower Revan. Re-simulate that battle where Palpatine encounters Windu and co., and Vitiate likely dies. [/B]
Revan had also charged up his power in preperation for defending against the attack, so don't act as if Vitiate was the only one doing that.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ah, we've gone from Revan would be stomped by Vitiate to an admission that he was "a lethal threat" to Vitiate. Progress! excellent
I've been saying this for the last 3 months. 😬
But yes it most certainly does suggest power and skill. Revan even boasts that united they are "stronger" than he, which Vitiate takes care not to arrogantly contradict.Unless your argument is that, in the hypothetical ensuing fight, Vitiate would unlearn the lesson he just experienced from tangling with Revan and fight stupidly and arrogantly against all three.
Which is contradicted by the fact that the passage makes it very clear that Vitiate is playing super-cautious now.
Like you said, it would be absurd to see Vitiate keep his arrogant attitude going so why would he care to contradict Revan's claim? He was alerted at that point. The jedi he sent away years ago returned with an other jedi, managed to sneak into his chambers and convince a lord of his empire to betray him. He even got psychically hurt a few seconds ago. Why would he not worry about the situation he is in especially since how much he is afraid to die? There are many factors here and most of them are irrelevant to how powerful the characters were. For example, why did Sidious try to run from Yoda? The context and the character of the combatant is very important in these scenarios.