Maul and Kenobi vs. Dooku (Sabers only)

Originally posted by McP
I think that Maul was still level 8 duelist. I believe him to be Kenobi's equal in sabers, and superior with the Force.
I just doubt, that Dooku and Windu are level 9 at this moment. Especially after SoD - Windu couldn't defeat Talzin (or even forced her onto defensive), and Sidious has beaten her while she was controling Dooku's body. She had full control over his body, her skills and was quite safe, since I doubt that Sidious wanted to kill Dooku. And Sidious disarmed her with total ease.
More then that, Maul did very well against Windu and Secura.

And excluding his duel with Sidious and some hype, Mace has nothing that would place him in Yoda's and Sidious' league.
As a duelist he couldn't even find any advantage over Bulq. Still, he was second only to Yoda in the Order, but I doubt, that he was in the same league.

Nah, Mace is certainly level 9, he stomped Asajj, he was holding back against Sora because of they have a history together. He also stomped Vos, not to mention he was second most powerful jedi in the order. That makes him 9.
As for Talzin, she used magick sword against Windu, different than possessing Dooku's body and his curved lightsaber.

Even before his power-up (season 4) , Maul was still able to beat Obi-Wan via using dun moch. So in this circumstances, he can't be lower than 8 with his TPM version,

YouTube video

And then, in Season 5, he has grown even more powerful.

I doubt that Mace was holding back in lightsaber duel against Sora. I prefer to believe, that Sora's Vaapad made him equal to Windu in the same way as Windu's Vaapad made him equal to Sidious.
During his fight with Sidious Windu might be a level 9 (if we believe in that kind of Vaapad's mechanic). Regular Mace was more like 8,5 (and canon says, that Dooku was his equal - since both were inferior to Yoda, it may have some sense).
Let's say, that Sora was level 7 or 8. Vaapad made him Windu's euqal (regular Windu, supported only by his own darkness) so he was level 8,5 during his duel with Mace in my assumptions. Tommorow I will write a bit more about that. My main source will be Juyo's description from "Book of the Sith" or "Path of the Jedi".

Well, Kenobi was in terrible condition during his fight with Maul in season 4. Maul also wasn't in his prime (a few moments/days before he could barley pull his saber to his hand).
I believe, that S4 Maul < TPM Maul < S5 Maul. And there is nothing that suggest, that TCW Maul was far better (or even better) duelist then TPM Maul.
We can be sure, that there was a huge gap between Sidious and Maul. Just like there was a gap between Kenobi/Maul and Savage (Kenobi defeated him while he was supported by Kenobi's equal or superior and Maul defeated him with total ease).

Originally posted by McP
I doubt that Mace was holding back in lightsaber duel against Sora. I prefer to believe, that Sora's Vaapad made him equal to Windu in the same way as Windu's Vaapad made him equal to Sidious.
During his fight with Sidious Windu might be a level 9 (if we believe in that kind of Vaapad's mechanic). Regular Mace was more like 8,5 (and canon says, that Dooku was his equal - since both were inferior to Yoda, it may have some sense).
Let's say, that Sora was level 7 or 8. Vaapad made him Windu's euqal (regular Windu, supported only by his own darkness) so he was level 8,5 during his duel with Mace in my assumptions. Tommorow I will write a bit more about that. My main source will be Juyo's description from "Book of the Sith" or "Path of the Jedi".

Well, Kenobi was in terrible condition during his fight with Maul in season 4. Maul also wasn't in his prime (a few moments/days before he could barley pull his saber to his hand).
I believe, that S4 Maul < TPM Maul < S5 Maul. And there is nothing that suggest, that TCW Maul was far better (or even better) duelist then TPM Maul.
We can be sure, that there was a huge gap between Sidious and Maul. Just like there was a gap between Kenobi/Maul and Savage (Kenobi defeated him while he was supported by Kenobi's equal or superior and Maul defeated him with total ease).

As for Mace was holding back against Sora, I think this source should be sufficient;

Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.

- Source : Fact Files #108

For Maul's dueling level, he become more powerful in every aspect, and I've confirmed that. I can show you my source if you want. I don't believe that TPM Maul can stomp Savage Opress that ease, or speedblitz magnaguards, fighting Mace Windu and Sidious etc.

Kenobi defeating Maul & Savage is not really consistent, they already stomped Kenobi in Season 4,
YouTube video
not to mention Kenobi failed to save Adi Gallia, then he was losing bad again, until he hit Savage's left knee as a last resort and sliced his right arm, then Maul blasted him with the force. Maul underestimated Obi-Wan there (again) so Maul & Savage can stomp Obi-Wan with ease in normal circumstances.

Dooku, he didn't use the force at all on Oba-Dia and had no trouble injuring Kenobi, and almost killing him. By this point Skywalker is a solid tier above Maul as a swordsman imo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dooku, he didn't use the force at all on Oba-Dia and had no trouble injuring Kenobi, and almost killing him. By this point Skywalker is a solid tier above Maul as a swordsman imo.

*sigh

Dooku can always beat Obi-Wan via makashi. And Savage Opress ragdolled / disarmed Dooku with one stroke only, Anakin has much better chance against Dooku than Obi-Wan because of his kinetic & physical attacks due to his style djem-so, and Obi-Wan lacks this kind of attack power too much due to his defensive style soresu. I don't know how many times I explained this, and this ABC logic shit still goes on.

In short, you need some kind of kinetic or physical attack power to defeat Dooku's expert sword style, otherwise styles like Soresu or Shii-cho, Ataru has no chance against Dooku's mastery. Or even his own same style makashi, can't be effective against Dooku (example : Asajj vs. Dooku) because he is better than everyone at makashi as well.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Ataru has no chance against Dooku's mastery.

His fight against Yoda says otherwise...

Originally posted by Marco1907
-snip-

So? Dooku downs Kenobi fairly quickly. And Maul cannot hope to survive against Lord Tyranus alone.

Originally posted by McP
Is Maul that good? We can assume, that Anakin is at least in Maul's league, and his teamwork with Kenobi is much better. And they both were far from stomp Dooku in their duels.

You know I completely forgot about TCW Season 6 Dooku vs Ani+Obi. That does confuse matters.

But I'm sure Dooku would eventually tire combating either that duo or a Maul+Kenobi duo.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
His fight against Yoda says otherwise...

Dooku is not on Yoda's level, even so Dooku did hold his own against Yoda. Not to mention Yoda knows makashi and other forms as well (sans Vaapad)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So? Dooku downs Kenobi fairly quickly. And Maul cannot hope to survive against Lord Tyranus alone.

So ? Same Kenobi beat Anakin, where Dooku fails...

Now please read my last post and try to understand some of it. Or we can continue with this stupid ABC logic as you want.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yoda is not on Dooku's level, even so Dooku did hold his own against Yoda. Not to mention Yoda knows makashi and other forms as well (sans Vaapad)

Wait what? Yoda is not on Dooku's level? shouldn't that be changed to Dooku is not on Yoda's level?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
shouldn't that be changed to Dooku is not on Yoda's level?

Yeah this.

Originally posted by Marco1907

So ? Same Kenobi beat Anakin, where Dooku fails...

Now please read my last post and try to understand some of it. Or we can continue with this stupid ABC logic as you want.

You're the one using stupid A>B>C logic. Skywalker was emotionally tattered when he faced Kenobi. Stop using that example. Neither Maul nor Kenobi are on Mace or Dooku's level as swordsmen. And Kenobi especially has shown to be no match to the Count in any scenario.

Obi-Wan's style ; Soresu / Ataru hybrid, that is something fall to Dooku's makashi easily. Soresu only a defensive technique and it is very usefull against aggresive forms such as Djem-so, Juyo.

Maul's style ; Niman / Juyo / Martial arts (physical)

Niman is kind of useless against Dooku's makashi, so only usefull thing Maul possess is Juyo and his physical strength & martial arts

Like Savage's example and Anakin's, they are using kinetic power to defeat Dooku's makashi, both strong style and juyo can produce enough kinetic power.

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/juyo_zps718ccd05.png.html

This form is even more open and kinetic than Djem-so. That is why Savage could use his monstrous strength against Dooku. Savage was unable to knock out Dooku while he was untrained in lightsaber art, after he learned this form, he easily disarmed Dooku.

Maul's juyo might become very handy against Dooku, and his physical martial arts / teras kasi as well, kicks and punches etc.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You're the one using stupid A>B>C logic. Skywalker was emotionally tattered when he faced Kenobi. Stop using that example. Neither Maul nor Kenobi are on Mace or Dooku's level as swordsmen. And Kenobi especially has shown to be no match to the Count in any scenario.

You are the one using that stupid ABC logic. I am explaining why Dooku is unable to beat Anakin while he can beat Obi-Wan & Ventress etc. , yet you are just talking rubbish like ''he was emotionally tattered bla bla...'' That's dumb. I explained why Anakin, Savage and now Maul can beat Dooku.

Obi-Wan stil can't beat Dooku, but he has much better chance with the likes of Anakin (Vader), Savage and Maul.

Anakin was emotional is very very dumb excuse. Even after 20 years, Ben Kenobi still puts up a good fight against Vader in death star. That is why his Soresu works perfect against kinetic powers like Vader's, Savage's or Maul's.

You can say, Vader was slower than Anakin (and yes Vader is slower), but yeah Ben was slower than Obi-Wan as well.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Anakin was emotional is very very dumb excuse. Even after 20 years, Ben Kenobi still puts up a good fight against Vader in death star. That is why his Soresu works perfect against kinetic powers like Vader's, Savage's or Maul's.

You can say, Vader was slower than Anakin (and yes Vader is slower), but yeah Ben was slower than Obi-Wan as well.

FFS its outright stated that Kenobi isn't just a worst swordsman than Anakin, its stated he's not in the same league.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
FFS its outright stated that Kenobi isn't just a worst swordsman than Anakin, its stated he's not in the same league.

And I have 3 source says (one of them Nick Gillard) they matched each other perfectly in RotS.

And also Mace Windu & Dooku both said in the novel that Obi-Wan become a true master of Soresu, and Mace even compared him with himself.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" "I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really- " "Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

He finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Here, Vader vs. Ben Kenobi duel in the novel ;

Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried. Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord. They continued to trade blows, with the old man now backing toward the hangar. Once, his saber and Vader's locked, the interaction of the two energy fields producing a violent sparking and flashing. A low buzzing sound rose from the straining power units as each saber sought to override the other.

Why are you even debating with him Stark?

Originally posted by ares834
Why are you even debating with him Stark?

Sometimes you can get these guys to flame if you destroy their arguments enough. excellent

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah I agree with this. He was not ready for being level 9. Drallig doesn't have any dueling feats though, army of 501 did the job at the temple..

Here is the quote says why Dooku get ass kicked ;

His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

Source : Return of the Sith Novel

And Soresu has no kinetic power. That is why Obi-Wan always fails against Dooku.

Originally posted by ares834
Why are you even debating with him Stark?

😂 Yeah, if you have zero knowledge about Star Wars, then don't you ever **** with me.

I can't even continue to argue with some guy who thinks ; Maul's fighting style = Obi-Wan's fighting style

This is beyond dumb.