Originally posted by ReflassshhDBZ was also full of inconsistencies. Does this mean we should start discounting/ignoring every statement the characters made, because of a few unrelated inconsistencies? Of course not.
That GT was full of inconsistencies and crap, so you just can't take statements at face value.A being that was 500x SSJ3 Vegetto (lol) was hurt by glass and couldn't even lift a building, yeah great logic.
Goku, who can very accurately sense chi, stated that base Rildo>Majin Buu. Goku, who can very accurately sense chi, stated that Super Baby Vegeta(1)>ALL powers before him.
Are you trying to tell me that Goku being cut by glass somehow discredits the aforementioned statements?
Originally posted by Galan007Not the same, as informed as you are I'm pretty sure you're aware of GT's inconsistencies regarding power levels, something rarely seen in the manga. (Anime is another thing entirely)
DBZ was also full of inconsistencies. Does this mean we should start discounting/ignoring every statement the characters made, because of a few unrelated inconsistencies? Of course not.Goku, who can very accurately sense chi, stated that base Rildo>Majin Buu. Goku, who can very accurately sense chi, stated that Super Baby Vegeta(1)>ALL powers before him.
Are you trying to tell me that Goku being cut by glass somehow discredits the aforementioned statements?
I'm okay with enemies in GT being more powerful than buu, but tell me something, do you honestly agree with Gogeta's statement of SSJ4 Goku being 500 times more powerful than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto?
Manga had it's share of power level inconsistencies.
Jacki Chun/Master Roshi struggled to beat Goku at his first tournament. Only won because he has longer legs, and Goku was stupid enough to try trading flying kicks.
Tao Pie Pie, the assassin Goku fought later, nearly kills him with a kick and a dodompa ki attack. Goku survives, and gets his first major powerup at this point, before returning to defeat Tao. By rights, Roshi should be nothing to Tao.
Yet, Roshi inexplicably manages to hold his own with Tenshinhan, who beat Goku at his second tournament. Roshi would have lost, but he lasted a good long while, impressing Ten to the point where he doubted whether he could have won or not (Proving he wasn't holding back very much, if at all.)
It would make more sense to believe SSJ4 Goku = 10x SSJ3 Vegetto: Super Baby 1 is stated to be the strongest ki ever felt but since we don't know by how much, we have to do SSJ Vegetto = Super Baby 1. The golden great ape is 10x SSJ.
Anyway none of that matters because:
1. Whis could be 29 trillion times stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto for all we know.
2. Gogeta thinks god is 50x SSJ3 when it absolutely isn't
3. And he thinks SSJ2 Vegetto > Whis which would mean SSJ Vegetto > god Goku
This is exactly why we need to use feats
Originally posted by ReflassshhI don't like to discuss purely hypothetical characters, and frankly, I don't think a 'SSJ3 Vegetto' comparison is really needed here anyway.
but tell me something, do you honestly agree with Gogeta's statement of SSJ4 Goku being 500 times more powerful than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto?
Originally posted by cdtm
Manga had it's share of power level inconsistencies.Jacki Chun/Master Roshi struggled to beat Goku at his first tournament. Only won because he has longer legs, and Goku was stupid enough to try trading flying kicks.
Tao Pie Pie, the assassin Goku fought later, nearly kills him with a kick and a dodompa ki attack. Goku survives, and gets his first major powerup at this point, before returning to defeat Tao. By rights, Roshi should be nothing to Tao.
Yet, Roshi inexplicably manages to hold his own with Tenshinhan, who beat Goku at his second tournament. Roshi would have lost, but he lasted a good long while, impressing Ten to the point where he doubted whether he could have won or not (Proving he wasn't holding back very much, if at all.)
Roshi actually trained for that tournament though
Originally posted by Crimson Dragoon
Roshi actually trained for that tournament though
The manga didn't go into his training, or how intense it was. But it's hard to imagine it would be anywhere comparable to the Karin Tower boot camp training, or that Master Roshi could get anywhere near the gains Goku did, because of his age and the fact Goku was outpacing the other fighters in gains even before Toriyama decided to make him an alien with special racial advantages.
Just look at Tenshinhan, a much younger man who trained specifically to beat Goku, and isn't even able to survive a single attack from the Piccolo's.
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Agreed.However, my point stills. Gogeta's claims are utter stupidity 👆
Even if you disagree with them, they aren't stupid. There are jumps of that scale in DBZ and more as well.
A 500x increase is not only not an out-there claim in DB, increases of that magnitude before over shorter periods of time.
Raditz saga Goku to *non*-SSJ Frieza Saga Goku is a difference of 3,000x. That Goku to SSJ3 Goku is, at least, 400x. Which means, yes, over the course of DBZ, Goku's power increased by something like 1,200,000 times over.
It doesn't make much sense to be dismissive of a 500x increase over the course of *four* Sagas!
There were less than 2 months between the end of the Saiyan saga, and the end of the Namek saga. During this time, Goku's base PL increased from 8,000 to 3,000,000--a difference of 375x... And if we're counting SSJ, his PL increased by 18,750x during this time. So yeah...
Gohan is another example. With a single year of training inside the RoSaT, he went from decisively below Freeza-level, to more powerful than FPSSJ Goku... And then he doubled that power upon discovering SSJ2.
A final example is Gotenks. Trunks/Goten were only in the RoSaT for like a week total(relative time), and they were able to boost Gotenks' power from SSJ, all the way to phucking SSJ3... And they still had enough spare time to invent a bunch of wacky attacks in the process. Insane.
Suffice to say, gains of 100's(or even 1,000's) of times are certainly not unheard of in DBZ. Hell, it happened in almost every arc. /shrug
Originally posted by Reflassshh
That GT was full of inconsistencies and crap, so you just can't take statements at face value.A being that was 500x SSJ3 Vegetto (lol) was hurt by glass and couldn't even lift a building, yeah great logic.
Um... That's the series in question though, dummy. 👆
1. When did Goku fail to lift a building?
2. Superman of Earth 1 was hurt by getting smacked by New Earth's kryptonite(essentially a rock, since it wasn't from Superman 1's Earth). You're annoying the context, jackass.
Originally posted by banana3
It would make more sense to believe SSJ4 Goku = 10x SSJ3 Vegetto: Super Baby 1 is stated to be the strongest ki ever felt but since we don't know by how much, we have to do SSJ Vegetto = Super Baby 1. The golden great ape is 10x SSJ.Anyway none of that matters because:
1. Whis could be 29 trillion times stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto for all we know.
2. Gogeta thinks god is 50x SSJ3 when it absolutely isn't
3. And he thinks SSJ2 Vegetto > Whis which would mean SSJ Vegetto > god Goku
This is exactly why we need to use feats
1. So you admit that Golden Great ape is 500X base, right? Considering it's 10X 50X, making it 500X.
2. No, Whiss is explicitly 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, and 50% stronger than Bills. Stated by Toriyama himself. 👆
3. So what's your point? Think of what you're saying. Base Vegetto >= SSJ3 Goku. That is fact. SSJ1 is a 50X boost to base. If you're claiming that SSJG Goku is greater than SSJ1 Vegetto, then that would have to make SSJG a MARGINALLY greater increase than 50X to SSJ3. However, SSJ1 Vegetto is as much stronger than SSJG Goku as Base Vegetto is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This is fact, as I have just proven again. And since SSJG Goku is weaker than or equal to SSJ1 Vegetto, and Whiss is less than two times stronger than SSJG Goku, a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss. 👆
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
3. So what's your point? Think of what you're saying. Base Vegetto >= SSJ3 Goku. That is fact. SSJ1 is a 50X boost to base. If you're claiming that SSJG Goku is greater than SSJ1 Vegetto, then that would have to make SSJG a MARGINALLY greater increase than 50X to SSJ3. However, SSJ1 Vegetto is as much stronger than SSJG Goku as Base Vegetto is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This is fact, as I have just proven again. And since SSJG Goku is weaker than or equal to SSJ1 Vegetto, and Whiss is less than two times stronger than SSJG Goku, a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Suffice to say, gains of 100's(or even 1,000's) of times are certainly not unheard of in DBZ. Hell, it happened in almost every arc. /shrug
Yes. GT was actually fairly restrained compared to Z.
Hunt for the dragonballs arc, and Super 17 arc, power level didn't increase much at all. Babi and Evil Dragons arcs, you have significant increase, but neither as much as the Frieza saga was.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. So you admit that Golden Great ape is 500X base, right? Considering it's 10X 50X, making it 500X.2. No, Whiss is explicitly 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, and 50% stronger than Bills. Stated by Toriyama himself. 👆
3. So what's your point? Think of what you're saying. Base Vegetto >= SSJ3 Goku. That is fact. SSJ1 is a 50X boost to base. If you're claiming that SSJG Goku is greater than SSJ1 Vegetto, then that would have to make SSJG a MARGINALLY greater increase than 50X to SSJ3. However, SSJ1 Vegetto is as much stronger than SSJG Goku as Base Vegetto is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This is fact, as I have just proven again. And since SSJG Goku is weaker than or equal to SSJ1 Vegetto, and Whiss is less than two times stronger than SSJG Goku, a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss. 👆
Hell they even have a guide that compares ssj4 to vegetto...
And we all know how Vegetto compares to Beerus. Goku flat out says they would have no chance if they used fusion. That was even before he understood how powerful Beerus really was.(He could not comprehend how strong gods were until he was god himself)
So basically everything you have said is a bunch of shit