Originally posted by Q99
Well, I'd say he can beat those, but SSJ2 Vegetto especially shouldn't even be close. He's a higher form based on stronger base forms of the same people. The difference between earing and dance fusion isn't *that* big, to make up for either of those factors, let alone both.
A hypothetical SSJ2 Vegeto wouldn't even beat Great Ape Baby, tbh, let alone SSJ4 Gogeta
Yeah, Baby Vegeta had some insane boosts
His base form shrugged off a punch from SSJ3 GT Goku, whose base form is stronger than some form of Majin Buu
Then his next form was said to have the greatest Saiyan power achieved at that point, which Goku agreed with and went on to say it's the most amazing ki he's ever felt. Plus two more forms after that, including the Great Ape with the aforementioned multiplier, which puts Baby well past even a SSJ3 Vegeto
Think about it...
As a SSJ3, Goku was absolutely nothing in comparison to Baby Vegeta. When Goku ascended to SSJ4, however, not only did he become powerful enough to easily stomp Baby Vegeta, but he was also powerful enough to match Oozaru Baby Vegeta.
Assuming the Oozaru multiplier was the same in GT, it means Baby would've gleaned a 10x increase in power from the form. Subsequently, this means that SSJ4 was more than 10x> SSJ3. Cray Cray.
Originally posted by Galan007
Think about it...As a SSJ3, Goku was absolutely nothing in comparison to Baby Vegeta. When Goku ascended to SSJ4, however, not only did he become powerful enough to easily stomp Baby Vegeta, but he was also powerful enough to match Oozaru Baby Vegeta.
Assuming the Oozaru multiplier was the same in GT, it means Baby would've gleaned a 10x increase in power from the form. Subsequently, this means that SSJ4 was more than 10x> SSJ3. Cray Cray.
Goku more than likely got progressively stronger from there as well, judging from his performance as a Super Saiyan against Super 17 compared to Uub
Uub in the previous arc managed to force Baby to exert some semblance of effort during their beam struggle while Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 got swatted aside. But later on, Uub literally does nothing to Super 17 while Goku as a mere Super Saiyan manages to have far more of an effect when he punched 17 across the planet
I don't think so.
God ki and regular ki are two very different things. I read an interview somewhere saying that godly ki was basically just a stronger form of ki that had more potency. From that, and the fact that Goku could use it from a concentration of a shite ton of ki in the first place, I assume that with enough ki, you could find some way to concentrate your ki enough to attain godly ki. I think that's the reason that Vegeta was also able to do damage to Bills in SSJ2. Not because he was as strong as Bills, but because he was so mad that he was able to invoke godly ki by trying to so hard.
I would also assume that to be the reason that SSJ1 Goku could fight Bills after going SSJG for the first time.
It's just an assumption, but I think it makes more sense than a special type of ki that can be overpowered by enough PIS.
Either way, the power that SSJ4 Gogeta has demonstrated is just too ridiculously high for anyone else in all of DB/DBZ/DBGT to contest against, and that's WITH the 15 minute time limit, that he doesn't have in this thread.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I don't think so.God ki and regular ki are two very different things. I read an interview somewhere saying that godly ki was basically just a stronger form of ki that had more potency. From that, and the fact that Goku could use it from a concentration of a shite ton of ki in the first place, I assume that with enough ki, you could find some way to concentrate your ki enough to attain godly ki. I think that's the reason that Vegeta was also able to do damage to Bills in SSJ2. Not because he was as strong as Bills, but because he was so mad that he was able to invoke godly ki by trying to so hard.
I would also assume that to be the reason that SSJ1 Goku could fight Bills after going SSJG for the first time.
It's just an assumption, but I think it makes more sense than a special type of ki that can be overpowered by enough PIS.
Either way, the power that SSJ4 Gogeta has demonstrated is just too ridiculously high for anyone else in all of DB/DBZ/DBGT to contest against, and that's WITH the 15 minute time limit, that he doesn't have in this thread.
I see where you come from but I just cant agree.
Goku has become a deity now( in beerus's own words )
Goku's base form could compete with Beerus where as Mystic Gohan and every other hero got trashed with chopsticks...
Base form Goku is greater than every other hero combined now, never mind super saiyan god.
You're forgetting the ridiculously insane GT multipliers, though. SSJ4 Goku, for example, was literally thousandS of times more powerful than he was in Z(sans Godly ki.)
That said, none of the ownage Beerus dished out in BoG was indicative of him being 'thousands' of times more powerful than his opponents. Why? Because in DBZ, you don't need to be 'thousands' of times more powerful than someone to effortlessly stomp them. A prime example: Goku(pre-zenkai) vs. Recoome. Recoome's PL was ~45,000; Goku's was 90,000. Despite the fact that Goku was 'only' 2x more powerful than Recoome, he still casually KO'd him in one shot... And I can list at least half-a-dozen similar examples if need be.
In short: nothing Beerus(and by proxy, SSJG Goku) did imply that they were remotely close to SSJ4 Goku's level... Let alone SSJ4 Gogeta, who is so far beyond Goku(or anyone else for that matter) that's it's hard to even conceive.
Point: SSJ4 Gogeta beats everything that has ever existed(to date) in the DBZ mythos with ease... And if it took him more than 2 blasts to do so, I'd be surprised.
multipliers are fine and all but the feats say otherwise.
Goku and Beerus were moving so fast that time was stopped. Nobody in DBGT showed speed even close to that. Not even SS4 Gogeta.
The Godly Ki was on another level. A level that was beyond anything they could comprehend. It is beyond all this power level multiplier nonsense. You can add up all the numbers you want but no matter how high they get they are still below Godly Ki.
Originally posted by bbrem123Feats do not tell us that Beerus/SSJG Goku were 'thousands' of times more powerful than the others. As I already mentioned: a mere 2x difference in power is sufficient to effortlessly stomp your opponent with one blow(Goku vs. Recoome.)
multipliers are fine and all but the feats say otherwise.
Other examples:
Nappa vs. Tien.
Goku vs. Jeice/Burter.
Base Freeza vs. Nail.
4th form Freeza(3% power) vs. Vegeta.
SSJ Trunks vs. Freeza/Cold.
Imperfect Cell vs. Piccolo/#17.
SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell.
Etc. Etc.
The largest power differential out of those listed above is probably base Freeza(PL=530,000) and Nail(PL=42,000), but even that 'only' equates to a difference of 12.6x. none
Remember, after the Freeza saga, an increase of 2x(the difference between SSJ and SSJ2) was touted as gargantuan. During the Buu saga, an increase of 4x(the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3) was touted as inconceivable--otherworldly, even. A power boost of 'thousandS' of times in BoG just cannot be supported by anything we saw.
That being said, Beerus/SSJG Goku could have been 2,000x more powerful than the others, and according to multipliers/logical power-scaling, they still wouldn't even be half as powerful as SSJ4 GT Goku(yes, SSJ4 Goku was at least 4,000x more powerful than he was in Z--I've explained why several times in the past)... Never mind SSJ4 Gogeta, who is several orders of magnitude beyond even Goku.
Originally posted by bbrem123I assume you're referring to the water droplet scene? If so, time slowed relative to Beerus and Goku, but it certainly didn't 'stop'.
Goku and Beerus were moving so fast that time was stopped. Nobody in DBGT showed speed even close to that. Not even SS4 Gogeta.
SSJ4 Gogeta blitzed Omega Shenron, who easily trounced SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta, who were thousandS of times more powerful than they were in Z. Blitzing an opponent of that magnitude --with NO effort whatsoever-- is a much greater showing of speed, imo.
Originally posted by bbrem123Wanking the bejesus out of Godly ki doesn't change anything I've said. 🙂
The Godly Ki was on another level. A level that was beyond anything they could comprehend. It is beyond all this power level multiplier nonsense. You can add up all the numbers you want but no matter how high they get they are still below Godly Ki.
Originally posted by Galan007
Feats do not tell us that Beerus/SSJG Goku were 'thousands' of times more powerful than the others. As I already mentioned: a mere [b]2x difference in power is sufficient to effortlessly stomp your opponent with one blow(Goku vs. Recoome.)Other examples:
Nappa vs. Tien.
Goku vs. Jeice/Burter.
Base Freeza vs. Nail.
4th form Freeza(3% power) vs. Vegeta.
SSJ Trunks vs. Freeza/Cold.
Imperfect Cell vs. Piccolo/#17.
SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell.
Etc. Etc.The largest power differential out of those listed above is probably base Freeza(PL=530,000) and Nail(PL=42,000), but even that 'only' equates to a difference of 12.6x. none
Remember, after the Freeza saga, an increase of 2x(the difference between SSJ and SSJ2) was touted as gargantuan. During the Buu saga, an increase of 4x(the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3) was touted as inconceivable--otherworldly, even. A power boost of 'thousandS' of times in BoG just cannot be supported by anything we saw.
That being said, Beerus/SSJG Goku could have been 2,000x more powerful than the others, and according to multipliers/logical power-scaling, they still wouldn't even be half as powerful as SSJ4 GT Goku(yes, SSJ4 Goku was at least 4,000x more powerful than he was in Z--I've explained why several times in the past)... Never mind SSJ4 Gogeta, who is several orders of magnitude beyond even Goku.[/B]
SS4 goku/gogeta feats dont show that they are thousands of times stronger either. I am going by the movie and it is plain as day that Beerus and Goku were beyond conventional power levels.
Hell even the dragon was sh*tting his pants at the sight of Beerus.
Originally posted by Galan007I just dont see it as superior. Goku and Beerus fought for a solid 20 seconds before the water actually fell. That is only because goku lost his God form too.
I assume you're referring to the water droplet scene? If so, time slowed relative to Beerus and Goku, but it certainly didn't 'stop'.SSJ4 Gogeta blitzed Omega Shenron, who easily trounced SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta, who were thousandS of times more powerful than they were in Z. Blitzing an opponent of that magnitude --with NO effort whatsoever-- is a much greater showing of speed, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
Wanking the bejesus out of Godly ki doesn't change anything I've said. 🙂
Not wanking anything. It was said in the movie that the godly ki was beyond all of them. You are lowballing the sh*t out of it and trying to use all this multiplier chap to justify your case.
SS4 Gogeta's power was very high yes, but they were still able to sense and understand how strong he had become.
Im going by the movie, and the movie makes it very obviously that they have ascended to new level. Beerus even calls Goku a deity.
This logic with power level multipliers does not work in the case of Beerus and Goku. No matter how bad you want them too.
All the feats in BoG's are greater than anything I have seen by a SS4. You are only guessing to how many times stronger they were in the movie to make your case. There is no actual proof because there powerlevels were incalculable to every character there. (minus whis the only other god)
Im using the feats (greater than any shown in GT) and statement by Goku and Beerus to prove they are far superior. All im getting from you are irrelevant multipliers.
I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one. Just one of those things
SSJ Goku reacting to Super 17's blasts which were covering a significant portion of the planet in seconds is probably a better speed feat than anything seen in BotG
Also, BotG continues from the manga canon while GT is from the anime canon, the anime having better feats than the manga in general
Pure powerscaling, the gods of BotG are the only things greater than Vegeto while GT has Vegeto being outclassed with the intro of Super Baby Vegeta, with Baby having two more forms after that. SSJ4 Goku beat him, then Super 17 after absorbing the 10x kamehameha beat SSJ4 Goku (who is significantly stronger in that arc than the Baby one as I've noted before), then Goku gets outclassed yet again by Syn Shenron. Syn then gets beat down by SSJ4 Goku after the latter surpasses his limits.
I think everyone knows how the powerscale works from there
That is just one of the many example of how the power scaling does not match any performance shown in GT. Like I said none of that matters when talking about Beerus and God Goku anyways. They are at a high state of being now.
Yes, SS4 Gogeta is the top of there tier. Beerus and Goku are in another tier now. But even they are at the bottom of this superior food chain.