Originally posted by bbrem123Before Goku accessed Godly ki in BoG, he was still unable to defeat Freeza in his base form. Fast-forward to GT, and BASE Goku was able to stalemate Rildo, who he confirmed was MORE powerful than Majin Buu. BASE Goku was able to casually stomp both Perfect Cell AND Freeza. BASE Goku was able to contend decently against Nuova Shenron. Etc.
SS4 goku/gogeta feats dont show that they are thousands of times stronger either. I am going by the movie and it is plain as day that Beerus and Goku were beyond conventional power levels.
It goes like this:
SSJ4 Goku 10x>(at the very least) SSJ3 GT Goku 4x> SSJ2 GT Goku 2x> SSJ GT Goku 50x> base GT Goku~Rildo>Majin Buu~SSJ3 Z Goku. ie. the difference between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ3 Z Goku is no less than 4,000x. If you don't believe me, crunch the numbers yourself.
It may seem stupid(because it is), but that's simply how absurd the GT multipliers were... And that was just Goku. We are talking about SSJ4 Gogeta in this thread. Logically he'd be tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.
Originally posted by bbrem123This is not a feat. Piccolo was shitting his pants when the Dai Kaioshin appeared at the WMAT, yet the Kaio wasn't very powerful at all(relative to the Z Fighters of course.)
Hell even the dragon was sh*tting his pants at the sight of Beerus.
Originally posted by bbrem123SSJ4 Gogeta casually blitzing Omega Shenron is a vastly better speed feat than water droplets falling slowing around Goku/Beerus as they fought, imo. Why? Because Omega Shenron was several orders of magnitude more powerful than Beerus/Goku, thus was logically several orders of magnitude faster than Beerus/Goku. In DBZ, power and speed almost always go hand in hand--the stronger one gets, the faster one gets.
I just dont see it as superior. Goku and Beerus fought for a solid 20 seconds before the water actually fell. That is only because Goku lost his God form too.
Originally posted by bbrem123a.) Yes, they said Godly ki was a very uber level of power. However, BoG obviously didn't take GT into consideration, given that GT is non-canon to Z. Therefore anything stated about the power of SSJG/Beerus only accounted for manga-based info.
Not wanking anything. It was said in the movie that the godly ki was beyond all of them. You are lowballing the sh*t out of it and trying to use all this multiplier chap to justify your case.
b.) Lowballing? I am simply telling you how powerful GT characters were. Denying it to this extent just makes you look silly.
Originally posted by bbrem123
That is just one of the many example of how the power scaling does not match any performance shown in GT.
GT has the highest physical strength feats of any Dragonball, and the highest chain of who-beats-whom.
Like I said none of that matters when talking about Beerus and God Goku anyways. They are at a high state of being now.Yes, SS4 Gogeta is the top of there tier. Beerus and Goku are in another tier now. But even they are at the bottom of this superior food chain.
Other way around, SSJ4 Gogeta solidly is higher up pretty much however you count it.
Aside from GT having clearly higher base forms, SSJ4 is another tier above SSJ3, and Fusion is always at *least* a tier up. So SSG being above SSJ3 and such doesn't help too much.
Originally posted by Galan007
BASE Goku was able to contend decently against Nuova Shenron. Etc.
Being fair, Nova was in his heat armor form at that time, and Goku spent most of the fight running away from him because of Nova's heat aura
Goku was still fast enough to evade him and blast him with a kamehameha though
Nova's golden form is about as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku (before he surpassed his limits anyway), but faster
Ah, alright then
Anyway, since I'm bored as hell and it might be useful for future reference, the DBGT foodchain which basically sums up my thoughts:
SSJ4 Gogeta >>>>>>(add a lot more > signs)> Omega Shenron (he claims to be at least 10x stronger than his previous form, likely even more) > SSJ4 Goku (limits surpassed) > Syn Shenron > SSJ4 Goku (Super 17 Saga) > SSJ4 Goku (Baby Saga) > Great Ape Baby Vegeta (a ten times multiplier as said before) > Super Baby Vegeta 2 > SSJ Goku (Super 17 Saga, he did more to 17 than Uub did) > Super Uub (forced SBV 2 to exert some effort) > Super Baby Vegeta 1 > SSJ Vegeto
You can probably add a few more ">" symbols between Omega and the rest, considering the ease in which he stomped both SSJ4 Goku AND SSJ4 Vegeta simultaneously.
It's also worth noting that Goku stated Super Baby Vegeta had the greatest ki he'd EVER felt. And given that Z is canon to GT, this just serves as additional proof that Baby Vegeta-level power(and above)>>>>>>>anything in Z(Buuhan and Vegito notwithstanding.)
All of these calculation are great. I'm happy for you ss4 Goku is 4000x stronger with no feats to support.
Still have not seen where God goku fits in to all of those numbers. Oh wait he doesn't fit because he is on a higher level of ki so
you can't calculated it...only speculate. His feats were superior imo. Including the speed one. Only because his God form ran out did he slow down.
Once again all of your numbers mean nothing.
Beers was so strong he beat evey hero with chopstick and touched vegeta to ko him...touched
You can even take his planet destroying feat at the end of he movie to show beerus's superior strength. Along with the fact they were tearing through the earth like paper while fight.
Like I said superior feats...
You either haven't read the posts, or are just flat-out ignoring them, but everything I(and others) have mentioned is feat/fact-based.
Not saying Beerus/SSJG Goku aren't extremely powerful... But GT was just so far beyond Z that even their power pales in comparison. Agree with it or not, those are the facts...
it is actually funny that you guys think ss4 is 4000x than dbz ss3. You sound like h1. And that is not a good thing.
Hell they should all be walking around destroying universes with the power you say they haha hahah. And Goku gets cut by glass and can't life a city ha. He who saga was low end showing haha
Originally posted by Galan007going by you ss4 Goku would trash galactus...
You either haven't read the posts, or are just flat-out ignoring them, but everything I(and others) have mentioned is feat/fact-based.Not saying Beerus/SSJG Goku aren't extremely powerful... But GT was just so far beyond Z that even their power pales in comparison. Agree with it or not, those are the facts...
Man I know GT is considered non canon and all but with BOG an the talk about other universe's it would be cool if they delved into that more and as an introduction to the concept one of the other verses is GT, and it's just where like Z being the main universe we know where Battle of Gods took place but in GT all that never happened and that universe took another route, it would be interesting to see our Goku/Vegeta's opinion on SS4 and other stuff (Like Vegeta commenting on his counterparts stupid haircut an being like "HAH WHAT'S NEXT, A MUSTACHE?!" or something lol).
Maybe even have it where at the end the two actually face off where Z Goku an Vegeta are SSG's facing their SS4 Counterparts (Akira obviously giving the Z verse a huge boost maybe explaining it like they're almost fully tapping into the SSG power) an maybe for the Z verse they're fighting evenly but then the SSG power up expires and they get knocked back and Goku is like "Man haha these guys sure are something else...Super Saiyan 4 is unreal!" but they somehow muster it again but maybe an even stronger form of it an later it ends in a fusion battle where the Z verse overcomes SS4 Gogeta with a Super Saiyan God fusion or something. Idk I'm hooked on this idea of other universes still lol.
Originally posted by bbrem123
All of these calculation are great. I'm happy for you ss4 Goku is 4000x stronger with no feats to support.Still have not seen where God goku fits in to all of those numbers. Oh wait he doesn't fit because he is on a higher level of ki so
you can't calculated it...only speculate. His feats were superior imo. Including the speed one. Only because his God form ran out did he slow down.
f you think the speed difference is just speculation, why do you think it's superior?
Beers was so strong he beat evey hero with chopstick and touched vegeta to ko him...touched
Ok? Do you think there's anything odd about a villain beating every DB hero without being touched?
GT goes through several levels of "Way more powerful than anything that came before."
We know a fusion absolutely leaves the originals in the dust. SSJ1 Vegetto was >>> SSJ3 Goku after all, and even > Mystic Gohan. Gotenks was stronger than Goku too, for that matter.
SSJ1 Vegetto was much above anyone who Beers was ignoring. Not enough to win, by word of Toriyama, but considering Beers could feel a hit by Vegeta, Vegetto was clearly, by feats, in a range where he could put up a fight.
And that's just a fusion SSJ1.
SSJ4 >> SSJ3, SSJ3 was curbstomped by a foe much weaker than SSJ4. SSJ3 >> SSJ1, obviously.
A fusion SSJ4... is something else.
Even if SSG is a 100x multiplier over SSJ3, it is not enough to overcome the combination of Fusion bonus and SSJ4 bonus and higher base form bonus...
you guys think ss4 is 4000x than dbz ss3. You sound like h1.
Base-form GT Goku was stronger than SSJ2 DB Goku.
Ultimate Perfect Cell is equal to a SSJ2, Base GT Goku was handling that no problem, without even a contest.
SSJ3 is base times a lot. What do you think the multiplier over base form is? We can use whichever numbers you'd like.
SSJ4 is, at least, whatever you think that is, x10, since it's at least equal and possibly better than Oozaru transformation, which is x10.
Remember, the Dragonball franchise has had an individual *story arcs* where the characters improve by more than a thousand times. Goku when he arrived at Namek was 90k. When he was done with Freiza, he was 150 million.
This type of power up is completely normal in this franchise. Individual story arcs often have power ups of 10x.
To borrow a phrase, "and that isn't even his final form!"
this is his final (human-sized, not counting Oozaru) form
The form before the one Crimson posted (that is to say, this one) was about equal to SSJ3 GT Goku.
The guy's got two levels above SSJ3, the first of which makes him the most powerful in the universe, and that still isn't enough to take on SSJ4.
Originally posted by Q99
f you think the speed difference is just speculation, why do you think it's superior?
Im not talking about the speed feat. Im talking about speculation to his power level. You are making up numbers of what you think. There is no actual power level. I go by the feats and the statement in BoG. Goku even explains how the god form is beyond him and how he dislikes that. Unlike SS4.
Originally posted by Q99
Ok? Do you think there's anything odd about a villain beating every DB hero without being touched?
What? I didnt even say he wasnt touched. I said he touched vegeta on the forehead and koed him.
We know a fusion absolutely leaves the originals in the dust. SSJ1 Vegetto was >>> SSJ3 Goku after all, and even > Mystic Gohan. Gotenks was stronger than Goku too, for that matter.
Originally posted by Q99wrong. He says they wouldnt even stand a chance even if they fused.
SSJ1 Vegetto was much above anyone who Beers was ignoring. Not enough to win, by word of Toriyama, but considering Beers could feel a hit by Vegeta, Vegetto was clearly, by feats, in a range where he could put up a fight.
Originally posted by Q99
Even if SSG is a 100x multiplier over SSJ3, it is not enough to overcome the combination of Fusion bonus and SSJ4 bonus and higher base form bonus...
"Even if" ahahaha. exactly, you have no clue how he stands to ssj3.
How can you sit here and argue he is weaker when you have no power level or anything of the sort to gauge. At least I have a stance with what they say about godly ki and how it is on a different level. As well as the feats presented in the movie, which where superior imo.
Hell im not even against people arguing ss4 is stronger. You have your points of view and that is great. The fact that you think it is no contest stomp is a joke and I cant take it seriously.
I love how all these power level mutlipliers are being thrown around when they dont apply to godly ki...
Hell Beerus destroyed multiple planets at the end of the movie. That right there is the best physical feat of any series.
