SS4 Gogeta va All

Originally posted by bbrem123
it is actually funny that you guys think ss4 is 4000x than dbz ss3. You sound like h1. And that is not a good thing.

Hell they should all be walking around destroying universes with the power you say they haha hahah. And Goku gets cut by glass and can't life a city ha. He who saga was low end showing haha

Anyway, h1's 'calcs' are never accurate. The ones I listed, however, are based exclusively on canon material--I didn't just pull random numbers out of my ass. That said, they're as accurate as we can get, based on the information provided.

And for the record: nothing I've said is indicative of GT characters being able to "walk around destroying universes"--that little gem was just part of your own hate-fueled rant/agenda.

I am just trying to make the point that power scaling means nothing with Whis, Beerus and Goku. Completely different scale of Ki imo.

I guess we just disagree. We both made our cases pretty obvious.

Also I'm sorry about that post as well. No hard feelings. I am just frustrated at how different are views are. It was immature on my part.

No worries.

Ending on a positive note is fine by me. 🙂

Originally posted by bbrem123
I see where you come from but I just cant agree.

Goku has become a deity now( in beerus's own words )

Goku's base form could compete with Beerus where as Mystic Gohan and every other hero got trashed with chopsticks...

Base form Goku is greater than every other hero combined now, never mind super saiyan god.

That's fine. You don't have to, the facts are there.

That means nothing. Kami was a god before it was cool, and you see where that got him.

Goku's base got pwned by Bills. Only with SSJG could he compete with his 70%, even after he absorbed godly ki into his other forms.

That's not true. SSJ2 Vegeta actually drew blood from Bills. Goku only managed to absorb his attack, and that was still only with SSJG.

In fact, Vegeta is now one of the strongest, and Goku only surpasses him with SSJG. Either way, if SSJ2 Vegeta can draw blood from Bills in DBZ, then I'm pretty sure GT SSJ4 Gogeta can kill Whiss with an accidental shart.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That's fine. You don't have to, the facts are there.

That means nothing. Kami was a god before it was cool, and you see where that got him.

Goku's base got pwned by Bills. Only with SSJG could he compete with his 70%, even after he absorbed godly ki into his other forms.

That's not true. SSJ2 Vegeta actually drew blood from Bills. Goku only managed to absorb his attack, and that was still only with SSJG.

In fact, Vegeta is now one of the strongest, and Goku only surpasses him with SSJG. Either way, if SSJ2 Vegeta can draw blood from Bills in DBZ, then I'm pretty sure GT SSJ4 Gogeta can kill Whiss with an accidental shart.

Im not arguing my points any further.

I disagree with the power scaling and it being used to gauge Godly Ki. It is a power Goku could not even fathom and could not be reach by himself. Unlike SS4.

Brem makes a point that God Ki is above anything they have ever dealt with. They could not even sense it. Goku's base form with God Ki might rival anything in GT now.

Also about vegeta drawing a small drop of blood from Bills, could be just like when glass scratched SS4 Goku.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Brem makes a point that God Ki is above anything they have ever dealt with. They could not even sense it. Goku's base form with God Ki might rival anything in GT now.

Also about vegeta drawing a small drop of blood from Bills, could be just like when glass scratched SS4 Goku.

you see what im getting at 👆

We dont really know what was up with SS2 Vegeta. He surpassed even SS3 Goku(and we have no clue by how much). They gave Vegeta that shining moment to show he has the same potential to be on God Goku's level. That is how I took it at least.

Originally posted by bbrem123
multipliers are fine and all but the feats say otherwise.

Goku and Beerus were moving so fast that time was stopped. Nobody in DBGT showed speed even close to that. Not even SS4 Gogeta.

The Godly Ki was on another level. A level that was beyond anything they could comprehend. It is beyond all this power level multiplier nonsense. You can add up all the numbers you want but no matter how high they get they are still below Godly Ki.

Burta was so fast he moved through time stop and he still would get wrecked by anyone here (and he was much slower than Goku). Don't think speed is the issue here.

Originally posted by carver9
Burta was so fast he moved through time stop and he still would get wrecked by anyone here (and he was much slower than Goku). Don't think speed is the issue here.

I swear you wank Burta more then anyone else, but yea 😆

Originally posted by bbrem123
Im not arguing my points any further.

I disagree with the power scaling and it being used to gauge Godly Ki. It is a power Goku could not even fathom and could not be reach by himself. Unlike SS4.

You're not arguing them. You're neglecting the simple facts.

SSJ2 Vegeta bloodied Bills. That proves that regular ki CAN affect Godly ki, if it's strong enough. SSJ Vegetto would wreck Bills.

Goku DIDN'T reach SSJ4 by himself. He had the help of the moon, and Pan. He had to gain control of his Golden Oozaru form, which can't be invoked without Blutz waves from the moon.

Same principal as having the power of multiple pure hearted Saiyan's. Just a different source. Not to mention that SSJ4 let him fight on par with someone 50 times stronger than someone who pwned him as a SSJ3.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Brem makes a point that God Ki is above anything they have ever dealt with. They could not even sense it. Goku's base form with God Ki might rival anything in GT now.

Also about vegeta drawing a small drop of blood from Bills, could be just like when glass scratched SS4 Goku.

They also couldn't sense the androids, but it doesn't mean they're on some other tier of power.

All that means is that they weren't used to that type of energy.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
They also couldn't sense the androids, but it doesn't mean they're on some other tier of power.

All that means is that they weren't used to that type of energy.

They could not sense the androids based on the fact they were machines and did not have any, god ki is actually present as Bills stated, but Goku and Vegeta could not sense it till they got attuned.

Originally posted by bbrem123
you see what im getting at 👆

We dont really know what was up with SS2 Vegeta. He surpassed even SS3 Goku(and we have no clue by how much). They gave Vegeta that shining moment to show he has the same potential to be on God Goku's level. That is how I took it at least.

Makes about as much sense as GT Vegeta surpassing Gohan.

Who had a SSJ form again, for some reason.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

SSJ2 Vegeta bloodied Bills. That proves that regular ki CAN affect Godly ki, if it's strong enough.

Yes, quite. The movie itself shows that while Godly Ki is a very nice boost, it is not total invulnerability by any means.

bbrem123

Im not talking about the speed feat. Im talking about speculation to his power level. You are making up numbers of what you think. There is no actual power level. I go by the feats and the statement in BoG. Goku even explains how the god form is beyond him and how he dislikes that. Unlike SS4.

No, most definitely not making up numbers.

All the "This is stronger than that," stuff is feats shown on-screen. We have Baby Vegeta specifically shown to be much stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku, fact, not speculation. We have GT Goku's base form shown to be above DB SSJ2 level from his fight with Perfect Cell, fact, not speculation. We have the Oozaru 10x multiplier, which is known and directly stated numerous times in DB, fact, not speculation.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it speculation.

SSG Form is beyond BotG Goku. SSJ4 is beyond GT Goku. You're speculated that this makes SSG better, but the actual feats and number of shown power up and size of said power ups is in GT's favor.

A SSJ2 is capable of hurting Bills, if not very much. A SSJ3 from a higher base was not a match for a guy who was 1/10th as strong as a SSJ4.

And that's before even getting into fusion!

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
They could not sense the androids based on the fact they were machines and did not have any, god ki is actually present as Bills stated, but Goku and Vegeta could not sense it till they got attuned.

Um, the androids did have ki, as even Cell stated that he had to absorb the ki of the androids. Only difference is that they didn't have life force, which made them impossible to sense. The point though, is that it doesn't matter if they can't sense you. Goku couldn't sense Arale either, but I'm pretty sure he would crush her.

Not just that, but Whiss isn't that much stronger than Bills. Toriyama put SSJG Goku at a 7, Bills at 10, and Whiss at 15. This means Bills is 30% stronger than SSJG Goku, and Whiss is 50% stronger than Bills, or 80% stronger than SSJG Goku.

Now, Base GT Goku was stronger than "Buu's strongest form", which was Buuhan. This means a good comparison is that GT base kid Goku > Base DBZ Vegetto.

So, since SSJ3 was weaker than Base Vegetto by a wide margin, and SSJG is a 50X boost to SSJ3, this means that SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku. As much as Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. This could be 30% greater, or even more, but I'll be fair and say greater than or equal to.

This means Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, SSJ2 is a 5X boost to SSJ1, so, since Whiss is only 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, that means he's less than 2 times stronger than SSJG, and in association, less than LESS than 2 times stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. Theoretically, Kaioken X2 Super Vegetto would beat Whiss. However, assuming he had SSJ2, he would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss.

This means SSJ2 Vegetto >> Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, let's look at GT Kid Goku, who was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger than Base Vegetto.

This means that if SSJ2 Vegetto could beat Whiss, then SSJ1 GT Goku could probably beat him too. So, all in all, at the bare minimum, SSJ2 Goku would stomp Whiss.

SSJ3 is a 10X boost to SSJ2. This makes SSJ3 GT Goku at LEAST 30 times stronger than Whiss. SSJ4 is a 50X boost to SSJ3, possibly more. Just like SSJG, as SSJ4 let Goku fight someone who was 50X stronger than someone who casually stomped him as a SSJ3. So, this means SSJ4 Goku would be AT LEAST 1,500 TIMES STRONGER THAN WHISS. This is before even getting into fusion, so this argument is just silly. 👆

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, quite. The movie itself shows that while Godly Ki is a very nice boost, it is not total invulnerability by any means.

No, most definitely not making up numbers.

All the "This is stronger than that," stuff is feats shown on-screen. We have Baby Vegeta specifically shown to be much stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku, fact, not speculation. We have GT Goku's base form shown to be above DB SSJ2 level from his fight with Perfect Cell, fact, not speculation. We have the Oozaru 10x multiplier, which is known and directly stated numerous times in DB, fact, not speculation.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it speculation.

SSG Form is beyond BotG Goku. SSJ4 is beyond GT Goku. You're speculated that this makes SSG better, but the actual feats and number of shown power up and size of said power ups is in GT's favor.

A SSJ2 is capable of hurting Bills, if not very much. A SSJ3 from a higher base was not a match for a guy who was 1/10th as strong as a SSJ4.

And that's before even getting into fusion!

Where are the power level shown from BotG's? I have never seen them. There ki is on a different level. All you can do is speculate at the power levels.

Like I said. There is no actual numbers regarding BotG powerlevels.

You have no idea how high Vegeta even amped so still irrelevant.
Stil speculation. BotG's pretty much established that changing forms to increase power is not needed any longer. SS3 is old news and most likely will never be need.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Um, the androids did have ki, as even Cell stated that he had to absorb the ki of the androids. Only difference is that they didn't have life force, which made them impossible to sense. The point though, is that it doesn't matter if they can't sense you. Goku couldn't sense Arale either, but I'm pretty sure he would crush her.

Not just that, but Whiss isn't that much stronger than Bills. Toriyama put SSJG Goku at a 7, Bills at 10, and Whiss at 15. This means Bills is 30% stronger than SSJG Goku, and Whiss is 50% stronger than Bills, or 80% stronger than SSJG Goku.

Now, Base GT Goku was stronger than "Buu's strongest form", which was Buuhan. This means a good comparison is that GT base kid Goku > Base DBZ Vegetto.

So, since SSJ3 was weaker than Base Vegetto by a wide margin, and SSJG is a 50X boost to SSJ3, this means that SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku. As much as Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. This could be 30% greater, or even more, but I'll be fair and say greater than or equal to.

This means Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, SSJ2 is a 5X boost to SSJ1, so, since Whiss is only 80% stronger than SSJG Goku, that means he's less than 2 times stronger than SSJG, and in association, less than LESS than 2 times stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. Theoretically, Kaioken X2 Super Vegetto would beat Whiss. However, assuming he had SSJ2, he would be over 3 times stronger than Whiss.

This means SSJ2 Vegetto >> Whiss > Whiss (50%) > Bills > Bills (70%) > SSJ1 Vegetto > SSJG Goku > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku.

Now, let's look at GT Kid Goku, who was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger than Base Vegetto.

This means that if SSJ2 Vegetto could beat Whiss, then SSJ1 GT Goku could probably beat him too. So, all in all, at the bare minimum, SSJ2 Goku would stomp Whiss.

SSJ3 is a 10X boost to SSJ2. This makes SSJ3 GT Goku at LEAST 30 times stronger than Whiss. SSJ4 is a 50X boost to SSJ3, possibly more. Just like SSJG, as SSJ4 let Goku fight someone who was 50X stronger than someone who casually stomped him as a SSJ3. So, this means SSJ4 Goku would be [B]AT LEAST 1,500 TIMES STRONGER THAN WHISS. This is before even getting into fusion, so this argument is just silly. 👆 [/B]

where was it said that ssg was a 50x boost?

This is new to me

Originally posted by Q99

A SSJ2 is capable of hurting Bills, if not very much. A SSJ3 from a higher base was not a match for a guy who was 1/10th as strong as a SSJ4.

And that's before even getting into fusion!

Not an ordinary SSJ2, though. Basically subverted the power hierarchy, moving past Goku and even Gohan to some ill defined higher level.

Sort of like SSJ4 Goku doing about as well against Omega Shenron, who was GT's final, most powerful boss and crushed SSJ4 Vegeta like fly.

hell they even stated Omega Shenron's power level. It was 1,900,000,000. Which makes your dbz ss3 goku 12.6 times stronger...

Originally posted by cdtm
Not an ordinary SSJ2, though. Basically subverted the power hierarchy, moving past Goku and even Gohan to some ill defined higher level.

Sort of like SSJ4 Goku doing about as well against Omega Shenron, who was GT's final, most powerful boss and crushed SSJ4 Vegeta like fly.

Omega was kicking Goku's ass for the majority of the fight, and it's only thanks to his Dragon Fist technique that he was able to do anything at all

Dragon Fist is like the kienzan of punching, it allows Goku to hit way out of his weight class

Originally posted by bbrem123
hell they even stated Omega Shenron's power level. It was 1,900,000,000. Which makes your dbz ss3 goku 12.6 times stronger...

ROFL, billions would be laughably low in GT and you probably got that from a questionable source like some video game