Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you really believe that shit.... ?Gillard talks nonsense in there tbh, he also said ''Obi and Anakin just match each other PERFECTLY.''
All people need to ignore Gillard's rankings on Anakin's power level. Lucas already explained Anakin was not on the same level with the Emperor, Yoda and Mace.
Originally posted by Arhael
Those are Lucas rankings, Gillard did not invent them. The only nonsense is you dismissing it.
And why Lucas didn't add Anakin here ;
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
Gillard contradict himself about Anakin, his statement means nothing.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except Anakin is explicitly mentioned in the quote you provided.
Yes, that's why Lucas said it was too early for Anakin to challange the Emperor.
''If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
In RotS , Mace and Yoda were capable of doing such a thing, not Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not saying Dooku wasn't a 9. Just that he wasn't mentioned.But to be honest, I think both ROTS Anakin and Windu are "stronger" duellists than Dooku. But I've always maintained that Dooku is one of the top elite in terms of combat skill and could comfortably stalemate Windu if he just fights defensively.
If he tries to overpower Windu however I see Windu's superior strength giving him the win.
Except its explicitly stated that Dooku regularly whooped Mace when they dueled.
Except that was way before Mace's prime, probably Mace wasn't even on the Jedi Council when that happened.
-Dooku's age ; 80
-Mace's age ; 50
And Mace's sparring match performances against his jedi friends are not really good, he seems equal with Saesee Tiin, and he was holding back against Sora and even against Quinlan Vos, on the other hand Dooku was very competitive in sparring matches unlike Mace is.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Except that was way before Mace's prime, probably Mace wasn't even on the Jedi Council when that happened.-Dooku's age ; 80
-Mace's age ; 50
And Mace's sparring match performances against his jedi friends are not really good, he seems equal with Saesee Tiin, and he was holding back against Sora and even against Quinlan Vos, on the other hand Dooku was very competitive in sparring matches unlike Mace is.
"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
Dooku was still an active member of the Order in TPM. There's no proof Mace improved from his 40s into his 50s. If anything Dooku would have been stronger in his 60s.
"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light."
*PERHAPS*
Dooku>/=Mace
@Lord Stark
When do you think Mace and Dooku were sparring each other ? Dooku already lost his interest to Jedi Order even before TPM, their sparring matches should be at least 10 years before TPM imho.
Still we don't know the exact time when they ''sparred each other'' still sparring means a little, unless you do really think Saesee Tiin = Mace Windu
Not to mention I have sparring examples between Obi-Wan and Anakin in TCW, I could use them for backing up my point here, (Anakin = Obi-Wan) but I will not use it.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, I know one thing now, we should consider ''balance'' in these debates from now on, clearly Obi-Wan was not faster and stronger than Anakin but he still won in the end. RotS Novel implies that he won because of the ''balance''.
Now I remember, a ''balance'' lesson from Master Windu.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he didn't. On the contrary it was Lucas who wanted Anakin to overpower even more powerful force users than Yoda and Sidious.
That was future talking of Lucas, if ''Anakin hadn't got all beat up'' clearly his lost against Obi-Wan was fair and square, but if he hadn't got all beat up, he could be more powerful than he was in RotS, only then he could defeat the Emperor, in RotS, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, RotS Anakin was not on that level yet, that is why he lost to Obi-Wan, and even Yoda anticipated that Kenobi could defeat RotS Anakin,
--- Revenge of the Sith Comic Book
Yoda : Destroy you I will, just as your apprentice, Master Kenobi will destroy !
Yoda : Powerful enough to destroy the Emperor, you are not.
Originally posted by Marco1907
@Lord StarkWhen do you think Mace and Dooku were sparring each other ? Dooku already lost his interest to Jedi Order even before TPM, their sparring matches should be at least 10 years before TPM imho.
Lol no. Dooku and Mace were friends up until the very end. And also the fact that Yoda is mentioned in the exact same ****ing quote suggests that it was more than a mere sparring session.
Still we don't know the exact time when they ''sparred each other'' still sparring means a little, unless you do really think Saesee Tiin = Mace Windu
Strawman.
"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
It was not mere sparring.
Not to mention I have sparring examples between Obi-Wan and Anakin in TCW, I could use them for backing up my point here, (Anakin = Obi-Wan) but I will not use it.
This is such a strawman of my argument. I'm not saying because Dooku and Windu sparred, Dooku can fight Windu. I am saying that because its explicitly stated that Dooku beat Windu RIGHT AFTER it says Yoda did is saying something.
Needless to say that if there was a quote that said Mace used to whoop Dooku in sparring sessions you'd be prancing that around these boards.
Originally posted by Marco1907
That was future talking of Lucas, if ''Anakin hadn't got all beat up'' clearly his lost against Obi-Wan was fair and square, but if he hadn't got all beat up, he could be more powerful than he was in RotS, only then he could defeat the Emperor, in RotS, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, RotS Anakin was not on that level yet, that is why he lost to Obi-Wan, and even Yoda anticipated that Kenobi could defeat RotS Anakin,
What future? What time in the future did he specify? He could have meant right after beating Obi-Wan. And even if we assume your interpretation is what he was saying, it is retconned by the Mortis trilogy which came directly from Lucas.
In any case is all irrelevant because Lucas didn't say you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Windu. He never stated it to be an interdependent triangle.
It's Kenobi who could match Anakin due to a Clash Of styles. You insist that Anakin beat Dooku due to a Clash Of Styles (even though it was clear he won because he was simply more powerful than Dooku). But you ignore the more obvious possibility that the clash of styles was between Kenobi and Skywalker whose intimate knowledge of each others moves and styles is mentioned by Gillard and in the ROTS novel.
Soresu also being a defensive form is the perfect tool to tackle a stronger opponent by simply giving more ground.
Originally posted by Lord StarkIt was not mere sparring.
What they did then ? Serious duel to the death ? If not, that is sparring match nonetheless. No different than Saesee Tiin vs. Mace.
If you really believe that Dooku could defeat Windu in a one-on-one, he shouldn't have to escape when they meet in clone wars.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIt's Kenobi who could match Anakin due to a Clash Of styles. You insist that Anakin beat Dooku due to a Clash Of Styles (even though it was clear he won because he was simply more powerful than Dooku). But you ignore the more obvious possibility that the clash of styles was between Kenobi and Skywalker whose intimate knowledge of each others moves and styles is mentioned by Gillard and in the ROTS novel.
Soresu also being a defensive form is the perfect tool to tackle a stronger opponent by simply giving more ground.
''His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.''
--- Revenge of the Sith
What did you understand here ? Or they just put this sentence for nothing.
Soresu x Djem-So doesn't have any loop like this, and you can't prove unlike I just did.
Do you really believe I would just lowball Dooku because I don't like him (which is not true, I like Dooku) or for another reason ? It is simple fact, Dooku has big advantage against the classic styles of Jedi, such as shii-cho, soresu, ataru etc. He can even hold his own against Yoda's superior ataru because of that reason. But on the other he get literally one-shot from Savage's raw kinetic power of strong style / juyo. That is Dooku's loop. He has advantages and disadvantages.
Originally posted by Marco1907''His own elegant [B]Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
''
--- Revenge of the SithWhat did you understand here ? Or they just put this sentence for nothing. [/B]
The meaning of that line is very clear to anyone who actually read the whole passage. It was that Dooku didn't know the form Skywalker was using, so was tackling him in the wrong way upto that point.
But no where in that line did it even suggest it's already over for Dooku due to Djem So's kinetic energy. No where is Makashi said to have a "weakness," to Djem So or to powerful attacks. And at no point was this line related to Skywalker's win over Dooku.
In fact right after that line it's Dooku who floors Skywalker, due to the ONLY actual weakness that IS mentioned, which is Djem So's Lack of Mobility."
Originally posted by Marco1907
Soresu x Djem-So doesn't have any loop like this, and you can't prove unlike I just did.
I didn't say Djem So had a "weakness" to Soresu. Although it's lack of mobility would technically make it weak to Ataro, which Kenobi is also skilled at (his pre-Soresu form).
But Soresu by it's very nature is ideal to deal with Powerful Physical and Force Enhanced Beasts like Skywalker. Kenobi and Skywalker's intimate knowledge of each other's moves is also a factor there according to Nick Gillard, and the ROTS Novel (they spent thousands of hours sparring each other, knew each others moves more intimately than lovers).
Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you really believe I would just lowball Dooku because I don't like him (which is not true, I like Dooku) or for another reason ?
Your intention seems to be to have the Big 3 as Yoda, Sidious and Windu (which a lot of people actually rank that way, so I have no issue with that), but then to have Maul as the next top dog after those 3.
But fact is Dooku is more powerful than Maul, and ROTS Skywalker more powerful than Dooku. So for Maul to be above both of them, you have to give Dooku a weakness to suggest pretty much anyone whose strong and an offensive combatant can take him, and you have to completely deny Skywalker's immense power.
Originally posted by Marco1907
It is simple fact, Dooku has big advantage against the classic styles of Jedi, such as shii-cho, soresu, ataru etc. He can even hold his own against Yoda's superior ataru because of that reason. But on the other he get literally one-shot from Savage's raw kinetic power of strong style / juyo. That is Dooku's loop. He has advantages and disadvantages.
He has a major advantage over Djem So's Lack of Mobility. And Yoda has massive Kinetic energy in his blows (he is the Most Powerful Jedi), yet Dooku fended against his attacks. So your theory and weakness fails here.
