Hello forum, so seeing as how all of us will be celebrating with our families tomorrow I don't think my opponent and I will be able to work on our argument and our counters until the a certain date, so i've decided to give myself and my opponent an extra week to respond. That said, I will try and make the opening argument today, just to get the whole thing rolling. Thanks for reading and have a good day.
Alright, so here is my Analysis on the fight.
Qui-Gon Jinn is an excellent duelist and Jedi master, by the time of TPM he had already defeated his apprentice Xanatos and showcased his physical strength many times. His excellent skill with the blade allowed him to continuously put up a fight against the powerful and highly skilled, Darth Maul - keep in mind that, the Jedi master was past his prime and his preferred choice of form was the more physically demanding Ataru, not to mention Maul was much younger than him, so the fact that he[Qui-Gon] was able to take on Maul for so long, while Kenobi was being knocked off and caught off guard multiple times, is quite impressive. In short; Qui-Gon is highly talented with the blade and what he lacks in agility he makes for with massive levels endurance and stamina, something, I don't think we've seen from Saesee Tiin.
Edit: (apologies for the shortness of the response, i did not have much time for a full blown analysis )
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Alright, so here is my Analysis on the fight.Qui-Gon Jinn is an excellent duelist and Jedi master, by the time of TPM he had already defeated his apprentice Xanatos and showcased his physical strength many times. His excellent skill with the blade allowed him to continuously put up a fight against the powerful and highly skilled, Darth Maul - keep in mind that, the Jedi master was past his prime and his preferred choice of form was the more physically demanding Ataru, not to mention Maul was much younger than him, so the fact that he[Qui-Gon] was able to take on Maul for so long, while Kenobi was being knocked off and caught off guard multiple times, is quite impressive. In short; Qui-Gon is highly talented with the blade and what he lacks in agility he makes for with massive levels endurance and stamina, something, I don't think we've seen from Saesee Tiin.
Edit: (apologies for the shortness of the response, i did not have much time for a full blown analysis )
Qui-Gon Jinn is an excellent duelist
As is Saesee Tiin.
"In addition to being a skilled, courageous master of the lightsaber, he [Saesee Tiin] was also a very capable starfighter pilot."
-Source: starwars.com databanks
"Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine."
-Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary
'Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself."'
-Source: Revenge of the Sith
He has showcased his physical strength many times.
He indeed has, but I wouldn't be so confident that he has Tiin beat here. Strength is, after all, Saesee's primary attribute.
Saesee: "My strength has never failed me."
Mace: "You can't smash your way through the entire droid army..."
Saesee: "Watch me."
-Taken from Heavy Metal Jedi
Feats originating from comic strips or clips from the Star Wars: Clone Wars miniseries are-for the sake of debate-not permitted because of the material's exaggerated portrayal of Jedi's abilities. In spite of this fact, I would like to point out that in all of his portrayals in this series he demonstrates using his immense physical strength to overwhelm his assailants as his go-to tactic, ranging from smashing droids to stopping moving speeders. So take that as you will, moving on.
Saesee is able to comfortably deflect fire from a dozen armed pirates while holding a grown man under his arm:
"The two judicials who had fought beside Tiin were wounded. The Iktotchi carried one of them under his left arm, while he continued to divert bolts with the lightsaber clutched in his right hand."
-Source: Cloak of Deception
And here, most impressively, Mace heavily implies that between them Saesee is stronger, and he the faster:
Mace: "Don't worry. We still have your strength. And my speed."
-Taken from Heavy Metal Jedi
This is especially meaningful considering Mace's own feats of strength are more than impressive.
-Source: TCW S6 (Credit to Marco)
He did well against Darth Maul
While this is true to a point, I would like to make it clear that Maul is a decisive tier ahead of Qui-Gon in dueling skill.
For starters, let's take a look at their first fight. Maul's performance is hindered by a broken ankle throwing off his balance, and while Qui-Gon is initially able to match him, he is regardless on the verge of defeat when he is rescued:
"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best. This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side. I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing him that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him."
-----
"I feel a savage pleasure course through me. His weakness feeds my power. I drive him back, spin around when he parries, drive him back again."
-Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Taking a look at their second battle, the combined skills of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are no match. Maul easily repels their attacks and only feigns being pressed throughout the duel:
"Rapidly spinning his lightsaber blade, he anticipated their moves with ease. Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them."
-----
"Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you. Maul sensed the laser doors opening behind him. Qui-Gon was unrelenting in his ongoing attack, but Maul parried every blow. Qui-Gon swung at Maul's legs, but the blade swept under his feet as Maul jumped backward. Maul continued moving back, leading Qui-Gon into the hallway. They passed the first four security barriers before the doors activated and shut."
-Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul (Credit to ILS)
"Obi-Wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened. Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate."
-Source: The Phantom Menace novelization
After his death:
"He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily."
Source: The Phantom Menace novelization
Qui-Gon was past his prime[when he fought Maul...]
I'm not sure how this is relevant here. We're discussing Qui-Gon as we've seen him--that is, as he appeared in The Phantom Menace.
In short; Qui-Gon is highly talented with a blade, and for what he lacks in agility he makes up for with massive levels of stamina, something I don't think we've seen from Saesee Tiin
You claim it's impressive that Qui-Gon can participate in an extended duel despite his demanding fighting style and increasing age. As admirable as that may be, the fact that he is growing old and does adopt a highly demanding lightsaber form is an inherent disadvantage--In both of his duels with Maul, these two facts have proven to be his downfall. It could be said for him that he can stave off his fatigue well, but I find it to be a highly unlikely notion that Qui-Gon is going to outlast Tiin in this contest.
You've spoken your peace in regards to Qui-Gon's strengths, allow me to shed some light on Saesee's. In addition to being a master swordsman, he is one of the Order's greatest masters of the Force:
"Saesee's flying practice also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi."
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #114 (Credit to Silver)
You've already acknowledged Saesee's telekinetic ability in the past, so with that in mind, let's move on to one of Saesee's greatest, but less acknowledged talents with the Force: Telepathy. In the past this ability has been underappreciated due to the belief that it lacks combat applications, but I would like to dismiss this notion. Here, Saesee describes some of the advantages of telepaths in the Great Holocron:
"In combat, telepaths do have a distinct edge. Even if one fights by instinct and reflex, most cannot stop themselves from emitting monosyllabic thoughts that project their next movement. During my training bouts at the Jedi Temple, my opponents unwittingly revealed their every move, allowing me that crucial fraction of a moment that enabled me to be the one who would remain standing."
-----
"He showed me how to use the Force to isolate my own brain waves, intercept stray thoughts, and screen dozens of minds at once. How to whisper across space, yell without noise, keep secrets, and sift through layer of lies and buried memories to uncover the truth."
Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (Credit to Silver)
Here, in what may be the most relevant demonstration of his telepathic abilities, Saesee is able to probe Qui-Gon's mind and detect him lying to Yaddle:
'"I'm not worried, Masters," Obi-Wan said good-naturedly. "I'm only thinking forward." He waited for Qui-Gon to offer some piece of wisdom regarding the living Force, but for once his Master kept silent.
"Right you are to think forward, Padawan," Yaddle told him. "Deal lightly with matters of consequence, and decisively with those of little consequence. Difficult it is to face a crisis and solve it gently, if not resolved beforehand you are, for uncertainty will impede your efforts. When comes the time, thinking forward allows you to deal lightly."
Her big eyes shifted to favor Qui-Gon. "Agree do you, Qui-Gon?"
He bowed his head. "As you say, Master."
Diagonally across the table from Yaddle, Saesee Tiin glanced up and smiled, as if reading Qui-Gon's thoughts.'
-Source: Cloak of Deception
To sum things up, in regards to comparison with Qui-Gon, Saesee Tiin is comparably skilled, stronger, a more powerful telekinetic, and his ability to telepathically read his opponent's moves before they happen gives him a distinct advantage. IMO He should be able to bag 5 or 6 wins out of 10, here.
Phew, that took longer than I had expected. Sorry for making it so long, I may have gotten a little carried away. G'luck. 😄
Originally posted by NewGuy01
As is Saesee Tiin.
lol i really dislike doing this, but Jinn has accolades that mirrors - and perhaps surpass Saesee tiins own.
A Jedi Master who was known as one of the Order's most formidable members, but his recklessness and his devotion to bizarre causes kept him from becoming a member of the Jedi Council.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
--------
Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
--------
Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable.
Source: Jedi Academy: Training Manual
again, i dislike using the sparring match, but the fact that many of Anoon's peers considered him to be of "unmatched combat prowess" and yet he considers himself inferior to Jinn and Mace does say something.
He indeed has, but I wouldn't be so confident that he has Tiin beat here. Strength is, after all, Saesee's primary attribute.
Jinn has knocked Darth Maul down with a single strike, forcing him to lose his Balance and fall.
On the screen, Anakin watched Qui-Gon Jinn step back, level his lightsaber, and swing a powerful, two-handed blow at his attacker. The horned man blocked it, but only barely, and in the process lost his balance completely. The blow's force swept him away, clear of the ramp and off into space.
Source: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Novelization
to stopping moving speeders. So take that as you will, moving on.
Do you have the source/scan/excerpt for this?
Saesee is able to comfortably deflect fire from a dozen armed pirates while holding a grown man under his arm:
That's impressive, yet through martial prowess, Jinn was able to send a man flying with enough force to crack a wall.
Link: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3786023-7769385361-37526.jpg
And here, most impressively, Mace heavily implies that between them Saesee is stronger, and he the faster:
Mace: "Don't worry. We still have your strength. And my speed."-Taken from Heavy Metal Jedi
That's a nice accolade. and it's impressive, yet most people tend to take Mace's praise as him "just being humble", I don't know what you believe, but it's impressive nonetheless
While this is true to a point, I would like to make it clear that Maul is a decisive tier ahead of Qui-Gon in dueling skill.For starters, let's take a look at their first fight. Maul's performance is hindered by a broken ankle throwing off his balance, and while Qui-Gon is initially able to match him, he is regardless on the verge of defeat when he is rescued:
Yet in the very same book, Maul states the following:
I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements. But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike. Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.
Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Taking a look at their second battle, the combined skills of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are no match. Maul easily repels their attacks and only feigns being pressed throughout the duel:
Yet in the TPM Novelization it states the following:
It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.
Source: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace: Novelization.
"He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily."Source: The Phantom Menace novelization
Except this opponent came to as a surprise, as no one had faced a sith in years. No to mention that Maul was considered to be an already powerful force to be reckoned with during the events of TPM and before that
You claim it's impressive that Qui-Gon can participate in an extended duel despite his demanding fighting style and increasing age. As admirable as that may be, the fact that he is growing old and does adopt a highly demanding lightsaber form is an inherent disadvantage--In both of his duels with Maul, these two facts have proven to be his downfall.
Except, the second time he had Maul completely on the defensive and only tired due to him fighting the majority of the fight alone while Obi-Wan has dispatched with ease.
It could be said for him that he can stave off his fatigue well, but I find it to be a highly unlikely notion that Qui-Gon is going to outlast Tiin in this contest.
Maybe, maybe not, I've yet to see any feats of Endurance or Stamina from Tiin.
You've spoken your peace in regards to Qui-Gon's strengths, allow me to shed some light on Saesee's. In addition to being a master swordsman, he is one of the Order's greatest masters of the Force:
An impressive accolade, yet, i'd like to point out that while impressive, his other peers - Shaak Ti, Plo Koon and Ki-Adi, vastly outstrip him in force prowess, yet they don't have such an impressive accolade. However, in comparison to Jinn, that is impressive.
So with that in mind, let's move on to one of Saesee's greatest, but less acknowledged talents with the Force: Telepathy. In the past this ability has been underappreciated due to the belief that it lacks combat applications, but I would like to dismiss this notion. Here, Saesee describes some of the advantages of telepaths in the Great Holocron:[/qute]Pardon me for this, but, such an ability was useless against Sidious - granted Sheev was a stronger and more powerful sith than Maul, however in that fight, Tiin's Telepathy failed to work. it's a nice ability, but one has failed him, unless there's a source that showcases him using that ability to a great degree.
[quote]Here, in what may be the most relevant demonstration of his telepathic abilities, Saesee is able to probe Qui-Gon's mind and detect him lying to Yaddle:
Except, it's no secret that Qui-Gon disagrees with the council, his ways are the reason that he was kept from becoming a Council member.
To sum things up, in regards to comparison with Qui-Gon, Saesee Tiin is comparably skilled, stronger, a more powerful telekinetic, and his ability to telepathically read his opponent's moves before they happen gives him a distinct advantage. IMO He should be able to bag 5 or 6 wins out of 10, here.
A more powerful Telekinetic? maybe, Stronger? it's debatable(like I am doing now) Comparably skilled? In my opinion, Jinn is a Tier above Tiin and actually, I think Jinn would take 7 or 8 wins, maybe less.
Phew, that took longer than I had expected. Sorry for making it so long, I may have gotten a little carried away. G'luck. 😄
No worries dude, I enjoyed reading through it, you made a lot of good points. Good luck to you Sasu, I look forward to your response 🙂
Jinn has accolades that mirror - and perhaps surpass Saesee tiins own.
I agree.
The fact that many of Anoon's peers considered him to be of "unmatched combat prowess" and yet he inferior to Jinn and Mace does say something.
And it's for this very reason that I find Saesee's sparring match with Mace to be an impressive display of skill. While not quite the same as a real fight, we are shown that even very esteemed and talented swordsman such as Anoon Bondara are humbled before superior duelists such as Mace and Jinn. While Windu's spars with Bondara were all off-screen, we see this in effect with Quinlan Vos below:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4082229-8043655419-39280.png
Here we are shown Mace comfortably warding off and landing blows on his partner, an esteemed Ataru master with a plethora of accomplishments to his name. Contrast this to his spar with Saesee below:
Take it as you will, but Saesee having the ability necessary to square off with Mace on even ground--as opposed to impressive figures like Quinlan and Anoon--solidifies his prestige as one of the Order's top swordsmen imo.
Do you have the source/scan/excerpt for this?
I do.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2206989-new_picture__19_.jpg
(Saesee is tied to the speeder)
That's a nice accolade. and it's impressive, yet most people tend to take Mace's praise as him "just being humble", I don't know what you believe, but it's impressive nonetheless.
I would disagree with that notion, yes. The way he worded it, and the context, doesn't support such an inference. He wasn't going out of his way to praise Saesee, he was stating the facts concerning their situation. Were he truly just being "humble" he wouldn't have mentioned his own superior speed.
Yet in the very same book, Maul states the following:
I am aware, the intent of my post was to point out that the quote you've provided concerning their first duel is selective. Yes, Qui-Gon is initially able to match Maul; but as you said, in the very same passage, Maul realizes that his wound was impacting his balance and that he was in fact not at his best. From there, Qui-Gon falters from fatigue and Maul is decisively overwhelming him regardless.
Maybe, maybe not, I've yet to see any feats of Endurance or Stamina from Tiin.
I'm not convinced stamina is relevant, much less in favor of Jinn. I've never seen Saesee falter from fatigue. I've seen Qui-Gon killed because of it.
-----
Endurance? As far as durability goes, Saesee Tiin wears a set of plastoid armor, which can't hurt. He also mentioned in the Great Holocron that he can isolate his own brain waves:
"He showed me how to use the Force to isolate my own brain waves[...]"
-Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Spoiler:
TBH I'm not completely positive what isolating one's brain waves would entail, but having studied brain waves I would infer that it would allow him to manually control his internal/mental state, a similar concept to homeostasis. Keep in mind I may be entirely incorrect on that point, though.
An impressive accolade, yet, i'd like to point out that while impressive, his other peers - Plo Koon and Ki-Adi, vastly outstrip him in force prowess,
I disagree. Nothing Plo Koon or Ki-Adi Mundi {have or has?} done with the Force "vastly" outstrips Saesee. 😬 He's the best telepath of the three, (Though Koon is a close contender) and is at least comparable as a telekinetic.
,yet they don't have such an impressive accolade.
FYI, Shaak Ti's prowess with the Force was stated to be 'legendary':
"Shaak Ti is a master of the Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!"
-Source: The Clone Wars Adventures
However, in comparison to Jinn, that is impressive.
👆 That's what counts, here.
Actually, I think Jinn would take 7 or 8 wins, maybe less.
The fact that you think Saesee could potentially take 3+ wins against Qui-Gon means I'm making progress, which is encouraging--It means I'm doing my job. 😉
Note: I noticed you failed to respond to Saesee's telepathic combat application(s). While I digress they aren't by any means a game-changing ace in the hole for Tiin, I think it's a prominent enough advantage to be taken into consideration.
Sorry in advance btw, this one wasn't as thorough as the last, I'm a little short on time at the moment--but wanted to get another post out there.
Originally posted by NewGuy01And it's for this very reason that I find Saesee's sparring match with Mace to be an impressive display of skill. While not quite the same as a real fight, we are shown that even very esteemed and talented swordsman such as Anoon Bondara are humbled before superior duelists such as Mace and Jinn. While Windu's spars with Bondara were all off-screen, we see this in effect with Quinlan Vos below:
Take it as you will, but Saesee having the ability necessary to square off with Mace on even ground--as opposed to impressive figures like Quinlan and Anoon--solidifies his prestige as one of the Order's top swordsmen imo.
Like I said before, in sparring matches - this coming from someone who has done several kinds of martial arts blah blah i hate talking about me, but, both combatants are holding back tremendously so as to not actually hurt one another, so while you could argue that keeping pace with someone in a practice duel is impressive, both Combatants would obviously be limited in such a confrontation. This also applies to Anoon's quote of sparring with Mace and Jinn, however the difference between these two instances is that, Anoon has accolades calling him a person of unrivaled prowess, yet he himself considers himself to be inferior to Mace and Jinn. comparing the two as if they were peers. While Tiin merely has that sparring match. In short, The sparring matches between jinn and Anoon means little, it is what He[Anoon] thinks, that I was trying show with that quote, the fact that Jinn is superior to him, despite the fact that his peers praise him as a duelist
I do.(Saesee is tied to the speeder)
Well, I'll be damned, impressive.
I would disagree with that notion, yes. The way he worded it, and the context, doesn't support such an inference. He wasn't going out of his way to praise Saesee, he was stating the facts concerning their situation. Were he truly just being "humble" he wouldn't have mentioned his own superior speed.
Well, I have a feeling Billaba will impress you once I'm done with my thread. But while we're on the subject of Speed. Jinn has moved faster than Obi-Wan and has some more feats in speed than Tiin has iirc.
I am aware, the intent of my post was to point out that the quote you've provided concerning their first duel is selective. Yes, Qui-Gon is initially able to match Maul; but as you said, in the very same passage, Maul realizes that his wound was impacting his balance and that he was in fact not at his best. From there, Qui-Gon falters from fatigue and Maul is decisively overwhelming him regardless.
I see, still, the fact that a man passed his prime could "send shudders" through his much younger opponents body, is a show of raw strength and as I stated before, Jinn complete knocked Maul down through sheer strength, both in their fight on Tatooine and in the Naboo battle.
I'm not convinced stamina is relevant, much less in favor of Jinn. I've never seen Saesee falter from fatigue. I've seen Qui-Gon killed because of it.
Except, Jinn has held his own against much younger opponents like Xanatos and of course Darth Maul, with Jinn basically fighting Maul alone for the entire duration of their clash
Endurance? As far as durability goes, Saesee Tiin wears a set of plastoid armor, which can't hurt. He also mentioned in the Great Holocron that he can isolate his own brain waves:
That armor seemed to have done nothing against the strike of a lightsaber.
I disagree. Nothing Plo Koon or Ki-Adi Mundi {have or has?} done with the Force "vastly" outstrips Saesee. 😬 He's the best telepath of the three, (Though Koon is a close contender) and is at least comparable as a telekinetic.
Ki-Adi lifting that giant ship, Koon collapsing a cave alone are a bit more significant imo
FYI, Shaak Ti's prowess with the Force was stated to be 'legendary':
Pfft, I was the one who found that quote, but what i mean't by that was, Ki Adi, Koon and Shaak Ti don't have accolades that specifically state that they are one of the best force users, yet they have incredible feats with the force.
The fact that you think Saesee could potentially take 3+ wins against Qui-Gon means I'm making progress, which is encouraging--It means I'm doing my job. 😉
Tiin is a powerful Jedi, yes. But his hype isn't comparable to his actual feats, granted this is due to limited showings, but i still don't see him as someone that impressive.
Note: I noticed you failed to respond to Saesee's telepathic combat application(s). While I digress they aren't by any means a game-changing ace in the hole for Tiin, I think it's a prominent enough advantage to be taken into consideration.
Actually I did, but i sort of failed lol. here's what I said:
So with that in mind, let's move on to one of Saesee's greatest, but less acknowledged talents with the Force: Telepathy. In the past this ability has been underappreciated due to the belief that it lacks combat applications, but I would like to dismiss this notion. Here, Saesee describes some of the advantages of telepaths in the Great Holocron:
Pardon me for this, but, such an ability was useless against Sidious - granted Sheev was a stronger and more powerful sith than Maul, however in that fight, Tiin's Telepathy failed to work. it's a nice ability, but one has failed him, unless there's a source that showcases him using that ability to a great degree.
check my post again, I kinda failed there, sorry.
Anyway, I just wanted to get a response in before you go back to school or something, Sorry if it seems disorganized, I've been working on the Billaba thread since like 4:00 Pm lol.
Good luck Sas 😛
Darthant66, Newguy01 and I are actually debating in this thread, the little random moments this thread had before our debate began were tolerated, but right now you are adding absolutely nothing to a debate that is between NewGuy01 and myself as I stated in the Original post. You may only comment onwhich character you think will win nothing else. Refrain from derailing the thread, please and thank you.
Nah, my post was in reference to the debate. NewGuy01 knows what I'm referring to. The only thing derailing the thread is you making a post about derailing the thread, because then I have to make a post saying I'm not derailing the thread, and rather contributing to it in a cryptic yet humorous fashion. 😛 Regardless, Jinn wins this. Disappointed in Sasukedc for going with Tiin. Good luck to both of you. 🙂
Like I said before, in sparring matches - this coming from someone who has done several kinds of martial arts, both combatants are holding back tremendously so as to not actually hurt one another.
I would be reluctant to assume real-life human realities translate into the realities of fictional superhuman mystics with laser swords. Refer to the below.
"This friendly exercise would be horribly dangerous to anyone but a Jedi Master, but all of those present were so in tune with the Force and one another that the odds of a mishap were, as usual, almost nil."
-Source: Fury
"To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play."
-Source: The Cestus Deception
-snip-
It seems like my meaning is flying right over your head, so I'll consolidate it into one straightforward point: Saesee fared much better in his sparring match with Mace than Vos did in his. Vos has a good handful of solid saber feats to his name by this point, making this a more quantifiable and impressive feat for Tiin.
Well, I'll be damned, impressive.
😉
Well, I have a feeling Billaba will impress you once I'm done with my thread.
Mace's quote concerning her skills is a slightly different situation, but nonetheless I am avidly anticipating the thread--Are you almost done?
But while we're on the subject of Speed. Jinn has moved faster than Obi-Wan and has some more feats in speed than Tiin has.
There have been clashing sources on who's faster between Obi-Wan and Jinn, but you're correct in your assumption that Jinn for the most part has somewhat better speed feats. Saesee's has fairly solid feats in the area, but nothing to brag about. Stuff like running in blurs, and creating blurring shields from his lightsaber blade.
And this, if you choose to take any credence in his OCW feats: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/48954/2206991-new_picture__21_.jpg
I see, still, the fact that a man passed his prime could "send shudders" through his much younger opponents body, is a show of raw strength.
I still don't know where you're trying to go with this. It doesn't really matter if it was done past his prime, because we're discussing his TPM incarnation anyways.
That armor seemed to have done nothing against the strike of a lightsaber.
Well, that's because he wasn't wearing it that day. 😮
Ki-Adi lifting that giant ship, Koon collapsing a cave alone are a bit more significant
I don't follow how collapsing a cave is more significant, but nonetheless from my perspective those things are still in no way vastly superior to what Saesee is capable of, especially considering his raw telekinetic strength was implied to rival Mace's.
I was the one who found that quote.
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Shaak Ti don't have accolades that specifically state that they are one of the best force users.
I would think having strength in the Force that is considered legendary is a step up from being considered to be one of the best, my friend. To each his own, I suppose.
Pardon me for this, but, such an ability was useless against Sidious
That's because Sidious is an even better telepath than Saesee is. This is addressed in the RotS novelization. Saesee attempts to probe Sidious's mind and seemingly gets f*cked right before Sidious jumps up and kills him, almost reminiscent of when Maul destroyed the mind of that Iktotchi telepath. Like master, like apprentice, I suppose. 🙄
Here's the quote, by the way:
"He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor."
-Source: Revenge of the Sith
A nice ability, but once has failed him.
Except that Qui-Gon is no Sidious--That was point of the quote I posted earlier. We've seen firsthand Saesee is demonstrably capable of probing Qui-Gon's thoughts, and that not even Yoda could find out what was on Palpatine's mind.
Disappointed in Sasukedc for going with Tiin.
The entire point of me doing this debate is to address the anti-Tiin movement that's been up as of late, and put it to rest. It would really defeat the purpose to side against Tiin, don't you think? 😬
I don't really have an opinion on the fight itself, they're both more or less on the same level and that's all that matters to me.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I would be reluctant to assume real-life human realities translate into the realities of fictional superhuman mystics with laser swords. Refer to the below."To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, [b]but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play.
"[/b]
-Source: The Cestus Deception
That very quote proves my point, a sparring match is "enjoyable" hell, Mace And Tiin were having a full blown conversation.
It seems like my meaning is flying right over your head, so I'll consolidate it into one straightforward point: Saesee fared much better in his sparring match with Mace than Vos did in his. Vos has a good handful of solid saber feats to his name by this point, making this a more quantifiable and impressive feat for Tiin.
Accept that. Tiin and Mace were having a conversation and Vos was taken aback by a force push
😉
😍
Mace's quote concerning her skills is a slightly different situation, but nonetheless I am avidly anticipating the thread--Are you almost done?
Yes, actually. by the time you see this response it'll be posted and trust me, when Mace praises her, its not him being humble. 😉
There have been clashing sources on who's faster between Obi-Wan and Jinn, but you're correct in your assumption that Jinn for the most part has somewhat better speed feats. Saesee's has fairly solid feats in the area, but nothing to brag about. Stuff like running in blurs, and creating blurring shields from his lightsaber blade.And this, if you choose to take any credence in his OCW feats: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/48954/2206991-new_picture__21_.jpg
While Jinn has moved in a blur and disarmed a man all before anyone could "take a breath", not to mention he keeps pace with a Kudana(while moving faster than Obi-Wan) and then there's this(yay speed feat for TPM Obi-Wan)
The energy bars retracted. The guards rushed forward. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan activated their lightsabers simultaneously and leaped toward them. Blaster fire pinged around them, and they deflected it, swinging in a blur of motion faster than the eye could follow.
Source: Jedi Apprentice: The Day of Reckoning
I still don't know where you're trying to go with this. It doesn't really matter if it was done past his prime, because we're discussing his TPM incarnation anyways.
The point is, Qui-Gon despite being much older, was able to keep up with the much younger and more energetic Darth Maul, while Obi-Wan, who was like wise, much younger and more energetic, was easily dispatched of.
Well, that's because he wasn't wearing it that day. 😮
lol
I don't follow how collapsing a cave is more significant, but nonetheless from my perspective those things are still in no way vastly superior to what Saesee is capable of, especially considering his raw telekinetic strength was implied to rival Mace's.
Doesn't that fight take place five months after Geonesis? Weren't most of Maces feats in TCW done a couple of months before ROTS?
I would think having strength in the Force that is considered legendary is a step up from being considered to be one of the best, my friend. To each his own, I suppose.
True enough.
That's because Sidious is an even better telepath than Saesee is. This is addressed in the RotS novelization. Saesee attempts to probe Sidious's mind and seemingly gets f*cked right before Sidious jumps up and kills him, almost reminiscent of when Maul destroyed the mind of that Iktotchi telepath. Like master, like apprentice, I suppose. 🙄
How is his blade dipping mean that he got mind-wrecked by Sidious?
Except that Qui-Gon is no Sidious--That was point of the quote I posted earlier. We've seen firsthand Saesee is demonstrably capable of probing Qui-Gon's thoughts, and that not even Yoda could find out what was on Palpatine's mind.
In a passive way, would the Situation not change in combat?
Sorry for the shortness of the response, my PC is dying atm.
Credit to ShootingNova for all of the Quotes, excerpts and scans.
