Originally posted by ILS
And Maul nearly collapsed a barracks with a Force Scream when he was 15 years old because he accidentally cut himself with a vibroblade. In terms of potential Maul at least rivals her power output. But in terms of actualized power, Ventress > TPM Maul.
Maybe if he starts getting gutted by lightsabers he can let out a mighty roar and carry himself to victory! 😱 jk btw don't hurt me
But yeah, agreed.
Is that the generak grievous who just kick ass of ventress and durge in the original EU?
Or the one who get is ass kicked by sokan in episode III or TCW 2008?
TCW 2003 grievous.... Eeer what the ****.. Maul is pure bad ass remeber in episode I when he take his light saber staff, one blade bad ass, OMG 2 blade he made a badassness combo x2 !!!!
But he get is ass kicked, I've see attack per attack grievous fighting style in TCW 2003... Maul is good on defesiv, but he stay really offensif, against grievous you have to really dodge and stay far from him....
Didn't get any force assaults from ANH Vader ? ANH Vader should be at least equal to Count Dooku in the force.
Nevermind, all I am saying you can't be sure about how powerful TPM Maul was in the force, we have already an example about TPM Maul, which shows that he can use force waves even in this stage,
Not to mention his survival via using the dark side of the force should be enough evidence to suggest that he was not inferior to Asajj Ventress imho.
He was creating another force wave to survive (or force drain I am not sure)
Originally posted by DionysusI'll spare you, this time.
Maybe if he starts getting gutted by lightsabers he can let out a mighty roar and carry himself to victory! 😱 jk btw don't hurt meBut yeah, agreed.
👆 Good.. good...
Didn't get any force assaults from ANH Vader ? ANH Vader should be at least equal to Count Dooku in the force.Vader never tried, for whatever reason. He has power which he seldom uses in duels. This doesn't help your case that TPM Maul > Ventress. Vader wouldn't TK Ventress in a duel either in the same situation.
Nevermind, all I am saying you can't be sure about how powerful TPM Maul was in the force, we have already an example about TPM Maul, which shows that he can use force waves even in this stage,Of course we can't be exactly sure, but as it stands Ventress has better feats.
That feat is a good example of why Maul can approach Ventress at this stage.
Not to mention his survival via using the dark side of the force should be enough evidence to suggest that he was not inferior to Asajj Ventress imho.Dude, Nova already debunked your theory of it being Force Drain, which is just illogical. A Force Wave? Maul kept himself alive by throwing out a telekinetic wave? That makes no sense.
he was creating another force wave to survive (or force drain I am not sure)
He kept himself alive by self-rejuvenation. He drew on the Dark Side to sustain himself, like he was trained to do by Sidious. Nothing more. It's basically an extreme example of Force Augmentation focused towards keeping yourself alive under harsh or otherwise fatal conditions.
Half these arguments of Grievous beating Maul/Opress would only be relevant if the OP said OCW Grievous.
But it says ROTS Grievous. The one who got 2 arms cut off, then smacked with TK by Kenobi.
Even if this was OCW Grievous, Dooku handled him in Sabers, and tossed him around with Tk. Mace crushed his chest with Tk. And exactly who was the most powerful Jedi Grievous beat who wasn't exhausted at the time he beat them? Because Maul beat one of the most powerful Jedi of TPM era.
So Yeah, No, Maul beats GG, and Opress has already beaten Ventress.
Team 1.
Not to say Team 2 are out of their depth, or can't win. They can (Grievous has beaten Kenobi as well in an unaired TCW S6 episode). But they will lose a majority.
Half these arguments of Grievous beating Maul/Opress would only be relevant if the OP said OCW Grievous.Well actually I'm basing what I say off of every source barring TCW, not just a couple of episodes from a cartoon.
But it says ROTS Grievous. The one who got 2 arms cut off, then smacked with TK by Kenobi.The one who has a Form disadvantage against Kenobi? :/
There's a reason Grievous stalemated Mace Windu whilst Mace had the advantage of mobility over him, but lost to Kenobi, and Windu tells us himself. Kenobi is the best suited Jedi of them all to combat Grievous - because Soresu is ideal for staving off the type of offence Grievous produces. And it's hardly a slight against Grievous if he gets hit by TK, especially considering he has the durability to survive a lot of blunt force.
Even if this was OCW Grievous, Dooku handled him in Sabers, and tossed him around with Tk.Even if this was *EU Grievous.
Dooku also had the benefit of training Grievous, and controlling what he learned.
Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general’s combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.Not to mention Dooku is one of the most powerful and skilled telekinetics in the mythos - the same can't be said for Savage who, while powerful, requires concentration just to Force choke one individual. And it's not like Grievous can't and hasn't dodge the type of telekinetic attacks Savage is prone to releasing.
But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself.
Just in case.-Labyrinth of Evil
Mace crushed his chest with Tk.So TPM Maul and Savage now both have Shatterpoint/The Force mastery required to carry this out? Give me a break.
And exactly who was the most powerful Jedi Grievous beat who wasn't exhausted at the time he beat them? Because Maul beat one of the most powerful Jedi of TPM era.How is this even an argument to begin with? You don't necessarily need to defeat someone in order to be considered a masterful duelist. But to answer your question, Grievous "handily" defeated a duo consisting of Asajj Ventress and Durge, and people tend to exaggerate how exhausted the Jedi on Hypori were. Sure, they weren't at 100% but they evidently kept their cool enough to give Grievous a challenge.
And then there's the various accolades Grievous has going for him along with his fight against Mace, both of which solidify his skill level.
So Yeah, No, Maul beats GG, and Opress has already beaten Ventress.You're entitled to that opinion and all, but I kind of doubt that you're going to convince me of all people that TPM Maul wins a fight which I believe he loses. Because he can't. Grievous has him beat in every form of durability, in strength, speed, stamina. He easily rivals Maul in terms of skill, is a more unpredictable fighter, a more adaptable fighter, and Maul's only true advantage which is telekinesis can for the most part be dodged, tanked or battered through by Grievous strength/durability - because TPM Maul isn't that powerful.Team 1.
Not to say Team 2 are out of their depth, or can't win. They can (Grievous has beaten Kenobi as well in an unaired TCW S6 episode). But they will lose a majority.
Savage doesn't hold a candle to Grievous in terms of speed or skill, and his main advantage which he usually sports - superior strength - is now gone. Along with superior durability. He may be able to offset Grievous with TK but he lacks the precision to target vital area, or to ragdoll him, or to really concentrate on the Force given Grievous' travel speed and ferocity.
Originally posted by carthageGo home Agen, you're drunk.
You were wrong about Vader not using his power in duels ILS, you meanie! Vader used his TK to hurl objects at Luke ESB and Roan Shryne. You amaze me sometimes, just like you denied evidence in the Tol Skorr debate you had. You frustrate me...
And exactly who was the most powerful Jedi Grievous beat who wasn't exhausted at the time he beat them? Because Maul beat one of the most powerful Jedi of TPM era.I just realized something pretty fun. When Maul defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, who I'm presuming DP referred to, he forgot that Jinn himself was exhausted by the time Maul finished him off. Oh the irony...
Originally posted by ILS
Why does Darth Power have this amazing knack for just saying so many wrong things in quick succession? *le sigh
LOL
All my points were spot on. Maul defeated Qui-Gon, who for most the fight had aid from his accomplished apprentice. Qui-Gon was a Jedi Council Level Master, One of the Best swordsmen of his time, and possibly one of the best in the Orders history.
He also defeated Anoon Bondara, whose Lightsaber skills were "second to none."
If you think the "exhaustion" has been overstated, you need to go back to the episodes which makes specific mention of that both times Grievous beats Council Members. Opress on the other hand Eats Council Members for breakfast.
You say you're ignoring TCW Grievous. A bit odd don't you think considering 2 of the combatants are TCW Season 5 versions?
You keep going on about this bad ass EU Grievous, but none of that changes the fact that Kenobi Force TK smacked Grievous disarming him of his remaining weapons.
If KENOBI does that, what possible difficulty are Maul/Opress going to have TK'ing him?
If anything's overstated here it's Grievous's "weakness" to Kenobi's style. A style used by the majority of the Order.
The best point you've brought up is Grievous's fight against Ventress and Durge. Of course Grievous had them at a distinct disadvantage there, given that they had no clue who he was, or what he was capable of, but he knew them both. And that's all kind of moot, since Ventress has defeated him 1 on 1 since then, without even resorting to using TK.
Originally posted by ILS
I just realized something pretty fun. When Maul defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, who I'm presuming DP referred to, he forgot that Jinn himself was exhausted by the time Maul finished him off. Oh the irony...
LOL Is this a serious argument?
And why exactly was it that Qui-Gon was exhausted? From fighting Maul.
Why were the Jedi fighting Grievous exhausted? From fighting a Droid army prior to their engagement with Grievous.
And the second time Shaak Ti fiought Grievous, she was again exhausted from having just fought like 20 Magnaguards.
Maul defeated Qui-Gon, who for most the fight had aid from his accomplished apprentice. Qui-Gon was a Jedi Council Level Master, One of the Best swordsmen of his time, and possibly one of the best in the Orders history.I'm aware of all of this, but a couple of clarifications.He also defeated Anoon Bondara, whose Lightsaber skills were "second to none."
Jinn was one of the best swordsmen the Jedi have ever produced, as per the TPM novel.
Bondara's skills weren't second to none. He is objectively inferior to both Windu and Jinn, as per Shadow Hunter and I believe another source. When someone is described as "unparalleled" in SW it's a blatant exaggeration, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be unparalleled....
If you think the "exhaustion" has been overstated, you need to go back to the episodes which makes specific mention of that both times Grievous beats Council Members. Opress on the other hand Eats Council Members for breakfast.Throwing aside the pointless referencing of "Council Members" - because simply being on the council has nothing to do with your dueling skill...
It has been overstated. Yes, they were tired, but they weren't so exhausted that they needed to coddle up in a bacta tank otherwise they'd collapse from fatigue. They weren't quite 100%, but they were still more than capable of fighting and providing a challenge. Acting like their fatigue was the only reason Grievous bettered them is ridiculous.
Savage has never taken on five opponents simultaneously and bested them, nor has he ever dueled evenly with Mace Windu whilst at a disadvantage. He's never received the same level of skill accolades from Grievous, never pressured Dooku in a duel by merit of his own skill, never bested Asajj Ventress "handily" - he's an inferior combatant. I've made both his and Grievous' respect threads. Go to them, compare them. It's not difficult.
You say you're ignoring TCW Grievous. A bit odd don't you think considering 2 of the combatants are TCW Season 5 versions?And what does this have to do with anything? They can be whatever versions they want - Grievous in the EU/ROTS novel, basically anywhere but TCW, is a magnificent lightsaber duelist and a physical behemoth. TCW is the only source which portrays him badly, and even then quite a lot of his losses there can be justified.
You keep going on about this bad ass EU Grievous, but none of that changes the fact that Kenobi Force TK smacked Grievous disarming him of his remaining weapons.TPM Maul isn't as powerful as ROTS Kenobi, and Savage lacks precision. He also lacks the ability to deprive Grievous of two his sabers before Force attacking him, or keep up with Grievous substantially superior skill and speed in order to defeat him.If KENOBI does that, what possible difficulty are Maul/Opress going to have TK'ing him?
There's also the fact that recently SOD Maul BRF'd Grievous with telekinesis and failed to keep him down for the count.
If anything's overstated here it's Grievous's "weakness" to Kenobi's style. A style used by the majority of the Order.You have an awesome way of debating. Anything that can be used against Grievous must be blown out of proportion, anything that can be used in favour of him is nigh-irrelevant, amirite?
Kenobi had a Form advantage which allowed him to overcome Grievous in ways other Jedi couldn't. Windu believed even himself couldn't have been a better choice for taking Grievous on due to the difference in lightsaber form, and evidently he isn't given Grievous' ability to stalemate him but lose to Kenobi. Unless you want to try and claim that Kenobi > Windu, which I think you'll find quite difficult.
And saying that a majority of the Order uses Soresu isn't an argument because 1) By that logic Grievous is still at a Form disadvantage against Soresu Users. And 2) Kenobi is the Order's foremost master of the Form, and is by feats one of the best duelists in the Order, above any other Soresu User of his era, so it's a moot point.
The best point you've brought up is Grievous's fight against Ventress and Durge. Of course Grievous had them at a distinct disadvantage there, given that they had no clue who he was, or what he was capable of, but he knew them both. And that's all kind of moot, since Ventress has defeated him 1 on 1 since then, without even resorting to using TK.As opposed to all of your fantastic points......
He didn't have them at any real disadvantage once he confronted them directly, at which point he decapitated Durge and choked Ventress out after some resistance. And there is no evidence that Grievous knew them both, or at least he didn't know their combat abilities well at all due to never encountering them until this point. Again, you're exaggerating anything that will work in your favour, for whatever reason.
Ventress defeated TCW Grievous, who is a different version to the one in this thread, on a potent Dark Side nexus. Stop intermingling Grievous' feats from wildly different sources just to boost your argument.
And why exactly was it that Qui-Gon was exhausted? From fighting Maul.Your point being? Maul didn't defeat Jinn either of the times he fought him until Jinn was tired - then Maul beat him. And Jinn has legitmate stamina issues due to being out of his physical prime, opposed to the Jedi Grievous fought who had been driven away after battling droids, which isn't quite as strenuous as fighting Darth Maul.Why were the Jedi fighting Grievous exhausted? From fighting a Droid army prior to their engagement with Grievous.
And the second time Shaak Ti fiought Grievous, she was again exhausted from having just fought like 20 Magnaguards.Strawman - I wasn't even using that encounter as evidence for my case. Try again.
