Darth Maul & Savage Opress vs. General Grievous & Asajj Ventress

Oh this is just so bad, I'm not even sure it's worth my time addressing every point.

Originally posted by ILS
I'm aware of all of this, but a couple of clarifications.

Jinn was one of the best swordsmen the Jedi have ever produced, as per the TPM novel.

Ok, that only supports my point.

Originally posted by ILS
Bondara's skills weren't second to none. He is objectively inferior to both Windu and Jinn, as per Shadow Hunter and I believe another source. When someone is described as "unparalleled" in SW it's a blatant exaggeration, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be unparalleled....

I think you're confused between Saber "skills" and overall Combat Prowess.

In either case it was made quite clear Bondara was also in the elite few of the era.

Originally posted by ILS
Throwing aside the pointless referencing of "Council Members" - because simply being on the council has nothing to do with your dueling skill....

Council Members are generally the most powerful Jedi. I'm sure someone here has a quote for that. That doesn't necessitate every single Council Member would beat EVERY Non-Council Member in combat, as we already have the example of Bondara. But that is the general principle.

In any case they are all accomplished Jedi Masters with known combat prowess.

Originally posted by ILS
It has been overstated. Yes, they were tired, but they weren't so exhausted that they needed to coddle up in a bacta tank otherwise they'd collapse from fatigue. They weren't quite 100%, but they were still more than capable of fighting and providing a challenge. Acting like their fatigue was the only reason Grievous bettered them is ridiculous.

Exhausted is exhausted. No point in denying it. No where was it stated they were "just not quite at their peak." The very word "Exhausted" means very tired. As in no where near their peak.

Originally posted by ILS
Savage has never taken on five opponents simultaneously and bested them, nor has he ever dueled evenly with Mace Windu whilst at a disadvantage. He's never received the same level of skill accolades from Grievous, never pressured Dooku in a duel by merit of his own skill, never bested Asajj Ventress "handily" - he's an inferior combatant. I've made both his and Grievous' respect threads. Go to them, compare them. It's not difficult..

Well give him 5 Jedi to fight who are all EXHAUSTED and I wouldn't put it beyond Opress at all.

LOL Savage has Floored Dooku. Who cares if it was by "skill" or by "strength". It's overall combat prowess here that matters. And Opress will Tk Grievous to death.

Originally posted by ILS
TPM Maul isn't as powerful as ROTS Kenobi, and Savage lacks precision. He also lacks the ability to deprive Grievous of two his sabers before Force attacking him, or keep up with Grievous substantially superior skill and speed in order to defeat him..

Nah, Opress eats Council members for breakfast. He'll handle Grievous in Sabers before Force Crushing him.

Originally posted by ILS
There's also the fact that recently SOD Maul BRF'd Grievous with telekinesis and failed to keep him down for the count.

Oh so now you're using TCW's depictions. You should make up your mind.

In either case, Maul thought Grievous was finished, and was rushed to go help Talzin.

Originally posted by ILS
You have an awesome way of debating. Anything that can be used against Grievous must be blown out of proportion, anything that can be used in favour of him is nigh-irrelevant, amirite?

Just giving you the facts Objectively.

The Council Members Grievous fought were "Exhausted" weh GG beat them. Whilst no "Weakness" was ever mentioned against Soresu. The only thing that was mentioned was that Soresu is the preferred method to deal with him.

And by the way, if forced on the defense, Maul is also a Masterful at that.

Originally posted by ILS
He didn't have them at any real disadvantage once he confronted them directly, at which point he decapitated Durge and choked Ventress out after some resistance. And there is no evidence that Grievous knew them both, or at least he didn't know their combat abilities well at all due to never encountering them until this point. Again, you're exaggerating anything that will work in your favour, for whatever reason.

No not at all. They had no clue who he was. It was the first time they were confronted by him. Grievous choked Ventress by surprise, but she held her own before that, and didn't even use Tk on him IIRC.

And this was a far less Powerful Ventress than the one who beat Grievous later 1 vs 1. And has told prior to that in the comics and TCW that he is not his equal.

Originally posted by ILS
Ventress defeated TCW Grievous, who is a different version to the one in this thread, on a potent Dark Side nexus. Stop intermingling Grievous' feats from wildly different sources just to boost your argument.

Excuse me, do you want to start getting consistent in your arguments please.

How exactly is ROTS Grievous the same as OCW Grievous but different to TCW Grievous.

If anything TCW Grievous has been portrayed as a much greater threat than he ever was in ROTS.

As for the "potent" dark side nexus. Doesn't really matter because Ventress didn't even once resort to using Tk against him (most likely because she challenged him to honorable combat) , plus Filoni's commentary on that was that Grievous was always going to lose against her, simply because he's not her match.

Originally posted by ILS
Your point being? Maul didn't defeat Jinn either of the times he fought him until Jinn was tired - then Maul beat him. And Jinn has legitmate stamina issues due to being out of his physical prime, opposed to the Jedi Grievous fought who had been driven away after battling droids, which isn't quite as strenuous as fighting Darth Maul.

Ok, I refuse to keep arguing this point, because I'm definitely losing IQ points even addressing it.

Jinn was Tired because Maul battered through his defenses. Jinn was tired, because it was a long fought fight ONLY because he had Kenobi helping him. It was Maul who was combating 2 Jedi for such a long period, and it was Maul who fell flat on his back after falling 2 stories.
And it was Qui-Gon who mediatated for some time to completely revitalize himself before engaging Maul 1 vs 1 for the final fight.
Yet still Maul battered through his defenses. The difference between them was clear, in strength, combat skill and yes stamina on top of everything else.

Even continuing this point is seriously retarded, and I doubt anyone else here would have the patience to even address you on it.

Oh this is just so bad, I'm not even sure it's worth my time addressing every point.

I think you're confused between Saber "skills" and overall Combat Prowess.

In either case it was made quite clear Bondara was also in the elite few of the era.

Council Members are generally the most powerful Jedi. I'm sure someone here has a quote for that. That doesn't necessitate every single Council Member would beat EVERY Non-Council Member in combat, as we already have the example of Bondara. But that is the general principle.

In any case they are all accomplished Jedi Masters with known combat prowess.

Exhausted is exhausted. No point in denying it. No where was it stated they were "just not quite at their peak." The very word "Exhausted" means very tired. As in no where near their peak.

Well give him 5 Jedi to fight who are all EXHAUSTED and I wouldn't put it beyond Opress at all.

LOL Savage has Floored Dooku. Who cares if it was by "skill" or by "strength". It's overall combat prowess here that matters. And Opress will Tk Grievous to death.

Again, you're exaggerating their level of fatigue. Ti for instance was operating telekinesis/deflection perfectly well against Grievous, and Ki-Adi was ****ing desperate to get another shot at him before a clone restrained him.

Hmm... well... when we're discussing who is more skilled, using a showing that was entirely based on strength isn't generally going to work. Dooku has been hard-pressed to defeat Grievous in sparring matches before, as per Labyrinth of Evil, and during OCW Grievous contended with him in a spar. Savage on the other hand generally has most of his blows deflected or dodged by the Count without much strain - he landed one legitimate strike on Dooku, and because of sheer physical might, he floored him. Not only is that nothing to do with skill, and not a comparable skill feat to the ones I've brought up, but Grievous has better strength than Savage himself so this tactic definitely wouldn't work. You're seriously failing to even counter my points properly now.

Savage lacks the precision to damage Grievous' armor in the same way Windu did, and his Force waves can be dodged the same way Grievous has dodged waves in the past. Refute this or stop talking.

He'll handle Grievous in Sabers before Force Crushing him.

Oh so now you're using TCW's depictions. You should make up your mind.

In either case, Maul thought Grievous was finished, and was rushed to go help Talzin.

That is entirely besides the point. Maul failed to finish Grievous off despite his best efforts of sending him to a plummeting death.

Just giving you the facts Objectively.

The Council Members Grievous fought were "Exhausted" weh GG beat them. Whilst no "Weakness" was ever mentioned against Soresu. The only thing that was mentioned was that Soresu is the preferred method to deal with him.

And by the way, if forced on the defense, Maul is also a Masterful at that.

Yes, word it however you want, weakness, advantageous, preferred - Kenobi's lightsaber form was well suited to tackling Grievous', which is why he defeated him. In terms of raw skill Kenobi and Grievous should be about equal, but Kenobi won through his Form in such a way other peers of Kenobi like Maul, Ventress and Windu couldn't. Refute this or throw the towel in.
And are you kidding me? You're trying to tell me that Maul can use Soresu as well as Kenobi? Hogwash.

No not at all. They had no clue who he was. It was the first time they were confronted by him. Grievous choked Ventress by surprise, but she held her own before that, and didn't even use Tk on him IIRC.

And this was a far less Powerful Ventress than the one who beat Grievous later 1 vs 1. And has told prior to that in the comics and TCW that he is not his equal.

Really? Not only are you wrong about Ventress being far less powerful when she fought Grievous in OCW, you're attempting to implement a double standard by sticking your dick inside anything bad TCW Grievous does and intermingling him with peak Grievous. How can you do that, and then whine about Grievous getting the better of a "Less powerful" Ventress, when you've completely disregarded the difference in Grievous' portrayals? Absolutely awful debating.

OCW Ventress was able to legitimately contend with Dooku, as well as Anakin. Not far off of her TCW self at all really, in fact probably superior.

How exactly is ROTS Grievous the same as OCW Grievous but different to TCW Grievous.

If anything TCW Grievous has been portrayed as a much greater threat than he ever was in ROTS.

As for the "potent" dark side nexus. Doesn't really matter because Ventress didn't even once resort to using Tk against him, plus Filoni's commentary on that was that Grievous was always going to lose against her, simply because he's not her match.

Of course it matters, holy shit. A Dark Side nexus doesn't just enhance your TK and you know that fine well.

If that's true, then it only furthers my point that there's a distinction to be made between TCW Grievous and the rest of his portrayals which Filoni had no hand in, i.e RotS novel, his various comics, Labyrinth of Evil, sourcebooks, OCW. Filoni's Grievous is just a different interpretation of the character altogether, and the OP for this thread is clearly using the one I've been referencing. So nut up and respond to my argument instead of using double standards, wriggling your way into an inane debate about canon, and just debating shitly in general.

Ok, I refuse to keep arguing this point, because I'm definitely losing IQ points even addressing it.

Jinn was Tired because Maul battered through his defenses. Jinn was tired, because it was a long fought fight ONLY because he had Kenobi helping him. It was Maul who was combating 2 Jedi for such a long period, and it was Maul who fell flat on his back after falling 2 stories.
And it was Qui-Gon who mediatated for some time to completely revitalize himself before engaging Maul 1 vs 1 for the final fight.
Yet still Maul battered through his defenses. The difference between them was clear, in strength, combat skill and yes stamina on top of everything else.

Even continuing this point is seriously retarded, and I doubt anyone else here would have the patience to even address you on it.

By TFU, yeah being council member also means you are powerful ;

Is Tfu stupid ? Yes. Any council member can kick Galen's ass, by TFU standarts. Thats why I was saying TFU hypes too much, everyone in TFU is using the force like amped, it would be same in OCW / Microseries.

But of course, the people like ILS will ignore this double standarts of TFU and OCW, they will just keep wank to their favorite characters.

But of course, people like ILS will ignore this double standarts of TFU and OCW, they will just keep wank to their favorite characters.

Well I am well aware of stupidity of TFU and Microseries. Which means Grievous is no where near powerful like he is in there. I am really sick of this bullshit of Grievous and his wanker ILS.

TCW / Movie Grievous is the real and canon one. When will you guys manage to understand this ?

Another funny thing about this, people like ILS wanks Grievous because he kicked ass in Microseries, but somehow they fail to see Mace Windu's feats there, and ignore it. Here is your double-standart.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I am really sick of this bullshit of Grievous and his wanker ILS.

👆 2 Marco's point about the OCW and TFU overhyping everyone and portraying them well above normal.

👇 2 any council member beating Galen. He did beat Shaak Ti, after all.

I don't see what is so ridiculous about Grievous' portrayal in OCW. He basically does the same shit and then some in other works that have nothing to do with Tartakovsky, and he has accolades from varying sources which support his ability to take on that team. Plus his fight on Hypori is referenced in a myriad of other sources and is intended to be a prominent part of Grievous' jedi killing career.

Ah... here is your bullshit. Star Wars = MOVIES , is this so hard to understand ? You can't just ignore Movie performances, Grievous by RotS movie , is no where near powerful as he is in OCW microseries, that is why that's bullshit and now it is non-canon.

By RotS movie, Jedi Council were ready to send ''one jedi master'' to deal with Grievous. But clearly, against OCW Grievous, one master is not enough for Grievous, which is why you need to choose one, choosing OCW over Movies is clearly stupid thing to do.

This should be apply to Vader, if someone portrayed Vader running fast like hell, then it is a bullshit, you can say Vader has good reflexes etc. but clearly he is not going to run fast in any platform, because movie says he can't.

The OCW belongs to Legends Canon - which is a parallel universe to Lucas' main universe, which includes the movies. OCW doesn't need to be the same as the movies because it isn't the same Grievous, it's two different versions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
👆 2 Marco's point about the OCW and TFU overhyping everyone and portraying them well above normal.

👇 2 any council member beating Galen. He did beat Shaak Ti, after all.

I meant any council member would give a good fight to Galen, because Crippled Droid man said ''you need to face someone strong, a council member'' which means any council member would give a good fight to Starkiller. Even Coleman Trebor. Even Coleman shouldn't be weaker than Kota.

He wasn't saying "a Council Member" as in any council member, he was referring to the council member Galen would be facing specifically.

Yeah, I guess that's why Galen said ''A council member?'' TFU was stupid as OCW anyways, I don't even bother to argue these.

Coleman Trebor is like Sha'Gi level lmao

Originally posted by Dionysus
Coleman Trebor is like Sha'Gi level lmao

Don't exaggerate it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
plus Filoni's commentary on that was that Grievous was always going to lose against her, simply because he's not her match.

Originally posted by Dionysus
Quote?

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3

Filoni: I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day.

^ Interesting thing is he specifically notes LIGHTSABER Fight. So he's talking of a scenario without any Tk Involvement. So clearly being on a DS Nexus (which I'm not sure it is in true canon), would not have effected the end result of that duel. And that's without Tk involved.

He goes on to say that he is adept at wielding Lightsabers, but ultimately it's the fear of those swirling blades that takes down Jedi, and not necessarily his combat prowess being greater than theirs:

IGN: Yeah, once things aren't going so well for him, he quickly cheats or calls in help.

Filoni: Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent -- like any video game!

Not only is Filoni's opinion on Grievous short-bus worthy, but it's just that - his opinion. He even says "it's just me" and "I always thought" - he obviously intended not to release an objective statement on the character. Is he in charge? Sure, unfortunately... but that doesn't change the fact that his own personal interpretation isn't fact unless he declares it as such.

And actually, after thinking more about TCW Grievous, his level of sheer fighting skill hasn't changed much from his portrayals in most other works.

For instance, he lost to Ventress whilst on a potent Dark Side nexus, which would have amplified her abilities.

He was losing to Kit Fisto, whose lightsaber form is ideal for combating multiple blades/opponents AND while Grievous, as per his medical droid, wasn't at 100% and needed recharging before going after Fisto, but Grievous obviously ignored this warning.

He's also routinely gotten the better of Kenobi physically during their TCW duels, the same way he had in the ROTS novelisation and film.

In the case of Ahsoka fighting him, all she's ever managed to do is run away from Grievous, and it's been made abundantly clear by people like Anakin that she isn't considered ready to truly challenge him.

With Eeth Koth, Grievous took him down using underhanded tactics, but that's hardly evidence to suggest that he couldn't take him out in a straight up fight - and given Koth's lack of showings anyway, it wouldn't be a bad thing for him to defeat Grievous, rather a good showing for Koth.

As for stuff like the Gungans, this is due to a different take on Grievous, and any character in TCWs', physical abilities. For instance, Grievous has routinely slaughtered dozens, if not hundreds, of opponents who make Gungans look like worm food, simultaneously, due to how physically powerful Grievous is in his other portrayals. It's also been noted in the ROTS novelisation that the MagnaGuards' electromagnetic staffs aren't even capable of hurting Grievous, yet the Gungans in TCW used this exact method to incapacitate him. It's the same with other characters - Anakin Skywalker doesn't tear Clovis in half like he should be able to, Darth Maul is shot by a blaster bolt despite the fact in other sources, as a teenager, he has sprinted through and sidestepped hails of blaster bolts at a time. Cad f*cking Bane contends evenly with Obi-Wan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos. It's basically just due to how TCW portrays the physical abilities of Force Users, which is modest in comparison to their EU/movie novel counterparts.

Dueling skill, however, appears not to have altered for characters like Grievous in TCW. That is, unless you want to stick your dick inside of Filoni's subjective opinion like it's scripture, despite the fact the guy knows about as much about Grievous' characterization as a toddler with 90% of his brain consumed by a tumour. Which I personally don't, because, I don't just mindlessly follow creator opinions opposed to canonical facts.

Originally posted by ILS
Not only is Filoni's opinion on Grievous short-bus worthy, but it's just that - his opinion. He even says "it's just me" and "I always thought" - he obviously intended not to release an objective statement on the character. Is he in charge? Sure, unfortunately... but that doesn't change the fact that his own personal interpretation isn't fact unless he declares it as such.

or opinions opposed to canonical facts.

He's saying it's his opinion so as not to have crazy Grievous fans lay into him. The guy gets a lot of hate mail.

Also the guy has talked to Lucas in depth about all these things on a daily basis for like 7-8 years. You really think he forgot to ask Lucas about how good Grievous is? LOL.

Fact is he's actually defended Grievous to Lucas. He says on page 1 of that same Interview how IT WAS LUCAS who wanted to have Grievous losing to Gungans, and it was FILONI who said Fan won't like that.

In either case, like you said, he's in charge on that show, so it shows us the creators intentions of Ventress beating Grievous simply being because she's better than him, not because they're on some dark side nexus.

And this was all talking about sole Lightsaber fights. You add in TK, and Grievous has no chance against someone as Powerful as Ventress.

Originally posted by ILS

And actually, after thinking more about TCW Grievous, his level of sheer fighting skill hasn't changed much from his portrayals in most other works.

For instance, he lost to Ventress whilst on a potent Dark Side nexus, which would have amplified her abilities.

He was losing to Kit Fisto, whose lightsaber form is ideal for combating multiple blades/opponents AND while Grievous, as per his medical droid, wasn't at 100% and needed recharging before going after Fisto, but Grievous obviously ignored this warning.

He's also routinely gotten the better of Kenobi physically during their TCW duels, the same way he had in the ROTS novelisation and film.

In the case of Ahsoka fighting him, all she's ever managed to do is run away from Grievous, and it's been made abundantly clear by people like Anakin that she isn't considered ready to truly challenge him.

With Eeth Koth, Grievous took him down using underhanded tactics, but that's hardly evidence to suggest that he couldn't take him out in a straight up fight - and given Koth's lack of showings anyway, it wouldn't be a bad thing for him to defeat Grievous, rather a good showing for Koth.

None of this matters because he's explained that when it comes to formidable Jedi (All Council Members would be included in that) Grievous wins THROUGH FEAR AND INTIMIDATING his Opponents via his Swirling Blades.

So the Jedi who have done better against him, have simply got past that Intimidation factor, whilst the Jedi who have struggled or fall to him Have not.

Clearly it took Kenobi some time to get past that. But he was clearly past it by ROTS. Whilst Fisto and Koth saw past that almost immediately.