Understanding Darth Nihilus

I think its most likely that range was the issue here. As prievously said you can see the landscape of Katarr quite clearly, suggesting he was very close. The size of the planet is irrelevant Legend, even if we pretended your argument wasn't pure conjecture basing itself what is ultimately an artists interpretation and far from accurate evidence, you've still have to be extremely close to make out mountains and structures, even if the planet were moon sized.

However more importantly, the Ravager was in orbit above Telos for a pretty long time, likely hours, enough for the Exile to battle her way through the station, board a transport, battle her way through the Ravager and reach the bridge.

By Legends argument, it therefore takes hours for Nihilus to gather the strength to absorb a planet, which suggests he was in orbit over Katarr for that amount of time. Why is this problematic? Because nobody reacted, picture the scene, the Jedi Order is a crisis, they have been forced into hiding by the Sith, in a desperate act they arrange a secret conclave in attempt to salvage the Jedi Order. A massive Sith warship appears in orbit and proceeds to sit there.

What do the Jedi do in this situation? Sit and wait for the fireworks? No, they get the hell out of there. Simply put Nihilus' attack would have to have come hard and fast otherwise the Jedi would have fled. And yet they didn't and all source point to him striking without warning, and insta-drained the planet.

Given that, the only thing that could have stopped Nihilus consuming Telos, was range, he had to dispense with the Republic fleet before gobbling the planet.

Originally posted by Board Walker
You seek enlightenment?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus's Katarr based feat can be a ritualistic development (still an awesome feat and one of the best of the mythos). We just have statement from Visas to consider for this matter but she never witnessed Nihilus performing this action, she was not with him when he attacked Katarr.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Rituals usually take a very long time where his Kattar feat took 1 hour. A single hour for a giant death cloud to sweep across an entire planet seems a lot shorter than a ritual would take

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Unseen, unheard.

Ah yes, I knew about the "hour to live" mentioned in the comic, but that would be in reference to the time between Atris tipping Nihilus off to the location of the Jedi meeting on Katarr, and Nihilus' traveling to get there. 😮‍💨

This idea that some people have of Nihilus traveling to Katarr and just parking his ship up in orbit, powering-up for an attack, is a no-go. 😆

There is no Canon Source saying that Nihilus' ships had Stealth drives on them, so he would be spotted in-system before he could ever have a chance to attack.

Also, there is no Canon Source that says that Nihilus' Drain was a ritual - unless you can find one that states it was, then it isn't.

In Star Wars, ships traveling in Hyperspace, still take hours or days to get to planets - due to Mass Shadows, largely.

So the hour that was referenced in the comic, was a reference to the time between Nihilus learning of the meeting due to Atris, and his fateful arrival at Visas' homeworld.

His attack in KotorII, is instantaneous - and does not manifest in the form of dark clouds - but rather in the form of torrents of Lightning.

The dark clouds seen on Katarr were not swept all over the planet - they were in key areas and the result where vehicles suddenly crashed into buildings, when their operators suddenly died from the Drain - as seen in the destruction of the population centers in Unseen Unheard.

Visas, being Force-sensitive, was intimately-privy to the scope of the attack as it occurred - just as Obi-wan was when feeling the death of Alderaan lightyears
away from either the Deathstar and it's target.

She would have known the moment of the destruction - and as she recalled the event in the comic from past-experience; would have gleaned information from her Master as to how he worked in that regard.

It would have taken her Master considerable time to reach Katarr once tipped off (an hour) and upon arrival, her Master "spoke and all life died."

His attack is defined in Canon not as a ritual, but rather an extension of his being, and is instantaneous according to Canon.

In regard to Telos, it is likely the reason he did not Drain the planet or station, was because he was too far from them, and the Force Wound Surik, boarded his ship, before he could get close enough.

Lastly, following the suggestion that it took him an hour to kill everyone on the planet, everyone on Katarr (being Force-sensitive and thus knowing they were being attacked) would have had ample time in an entire hour to perform a mass evacuation of the planet - with people fleeing from whoever was attacking their world.

So it's not a ritual, and it doesn't take an hour to work - it's virtually instantaneous and part of his nature.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unseen, Unheard confirms that it took Nihilus under an hour to consume the planet of Katarr.

Because in Star Wars, Hyperspace travel can take hours or days to get from one planet to another, and Visas was speaking of the time it took from Atris tipping Nihilus off to the location of the meeting, and Nihilus' travel to get there.

No Canon Source classifies Nihilus' Drain as a ritual, and his attack couldn't have taken an hour to kill everyone on the planet, because they would have sensed the destruction through the Force and fled en mass.

The attack was virtually instantaneous, and the "hour" that had been mentioned, referenced the amount of time it took Nihilus to get to Visas' homeworld through Hyperspace, after being tipped off.

Originally posted by NemeBro
How do you know?

You can't even prove that Nihilus was in range to do so. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think its most likely that range was the issue here. As prievously said you can see the landscape of Katarr quite clearly, suggesting he was very close. The size of the planet is irrelevant Legend, even if we pretended your argument wasn't pure conjecture basing itself what is ultimately an artists interpretation and far from accurate evidence, you've still have to be extremely close to make out mountains and structures, even if the planet were moon sized.

However more importantly, the Ravager was in orbit above Telos for a pretty long time, likely hours, enough for the Exile to battle her way through the station, board a transport, battle her way through the Ravager and reach the bridge.

By Legends argument, it therefore takes hours for Nihilus to gather the strength to absorb a planet, which suggests he was in orbit over Katarr for that amount of time. Why is this problematic? Because nobody reacted, picture the scene, the Jedi Order is a crisis, they have been forced into hiding by the Sith, in a desperate act they arrange a secret conclave in attempt to salvage the Jedi Order. A massive Sith warship appears in orbit and proceeds to sit there.

What do the Jedi do in this situation? Sit and wait for the fireworks? No, they get the hell out of there. Simply put Nihilus' attack would have to have come hard and fast otherwise the Jedi would have fled. And yet they didn't and all source point to him striking without warning, and insta-drained the planet.

Given that, the only thing that could have stopped Nihilus consuming Telos, was range, he had to dispense with the Republic fleet before gobbling the planet.

I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Interestingly:

The Jedi Exile, cut off from the Force, went in search of the remaining Jedi Masters and, perhaps, an explanation. But the Exile's mentor, Kreia, had other plans–when the Exile finally gathered the Masters, Kreia slew them all. As the Exile recovered from this encounter, Kreia deliberately enticed the terrible Darth Nihilus to the planet Telos Four. Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet, and Nihilus's dreadnought, the Ravager, was met by the Republic Navy and Mandalorian forces. During the battle, the Exile boarded the Ravager and faced Nihilus. Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated. With Telos safe, the Exile pursued Kreia.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (Battle of Telos IV)

---

Also Beni,

Jedi were caught unaware on Katarr. The attack came as a surprise.

Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order's Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr's lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (The Conclave at Katarr)

Nihilus likely positioned his flagship at a distance from where he would not be spotted.

Not sure codex entries for Obsidan characters can really be considered credible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not sure codex entries for Obsidan characters can really be considered credible.

Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia does not presents Nihilus in a very impressive light either, but people still use it for citations.

Also, I see nothing wrong in codex entries of SWTOR. Most of the stuff in them is accurately described.

Not a double-standard at all, I use no codex entries for KotOR 2 characters in my respect threads.
It's lame to accuse some of your main supporters and allies of these boards as "exercising double-standards."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Do you believe that Nihilus can devour the Force on any planet in the galaxy from any distance?

If that were the case, why would he even bring his fleet to Telos or Katarr?

He was over a planetary diameter away from Telos. Compared to Katarr, where he was in shitting distance.

Interestingly:

The Jedi Exile, cut off from the Force, went in search of the remaining Jedi Masters and, perhaps, an explanation. But the Exile's mentor, Kreia, had other plans–when the Exile finally gathered the Masters, Kreia slew them all. As the Exile recovered from this encounter, Kreia deliberately enticed the terrible Darth Nihilus to the planet Telos Four. Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet, and Nihilus's dreadnought, the Ravager, was met by the Republic Navy and Mandalorian forces. During the battle, the Exile boarded the Ravager and faced Nihilus. Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated. With Telos safe, the Exile pursued Kreia.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (Battle of Telos IV)

---

Better evidence than anything else you've provided, but it's from a game not developed by the makers of Kotor 2, and is too vague to be empirical anyway.

Why is it so hard to believe that when people tout Nihilus' ability to devour entire planets as an example of his power, that he can just sort of do that? Why would they make a huge deal about him if he needed a lot of prep to do so?

Also Beni,

Jedi were caught unaware on Katarr. The attack came as a surprise.

Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order's Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr's lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (The Conclave at Katarr)

Nihilus likely positioned his flagship at a distance from where he would not be spotted.

Your assertion is contradicted by the actual scan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Without a range limit, Nihilus would be able to Drain any planet in the Galaxy, without moving his fleet.

Obviously, this is not the case.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet,

Remember that Nihilus was moving his fleet into position, to get within range of Telos, and to make sure that he was not intercepted by Republic and Mandalorian warships and forces.

His preparation for the assault would have included keeping his fleet protected while traveling into range of Telos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.

Your point actually lends credence to the fact that he struck quickly and needed to, in order to maintain the element of surprise.

- Also, the sentence simply says that they didn't know he was en route to the Colony.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Better evidence than anything else you've provided, but it's from a game not developed by the makers of Kotor 2, and is too vague to be empirical anyway.

Given the zillion fingers jammed in the Star Wars pie, it's unreasonable to exclude evidence from one source about another on the basis that it doesn't come from the creators of the original.

The excerpt is only vague in that it doesn't explicitly assign a timeframe to how long it would take Nihilus to unleash the attack, but it does indeed undermine the notion that the technique is effortless or instantaneous.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why is it so hard to believe that when people tout Nihilus' ability to devour entire planets as an example of his power, that he can just sort of do that? Why would they make a huge deal about him if he needed a lot of prep to do so?

I'm not unsympathetic to this appeal {I've used similar ones for Sidious}, but the fact that some limits are imposed on Nihilus doesn't exactly neuter him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given the zillion fingers jammed in the Star Wars pie, it's unreasonable to exclude evidence from one source about another on the basis that it doesn't come from the creators of the original.

The excerpt is only vague in that it doesn't explicitly assign a timeframe to how long it would take Nihilus to unleash the attack, but it does indeed undermine the notion that the technique is effortless or instantaneous.

I'm not unsympathetic to this appeal {I've used similar ones for Sidious}, but the fact that some limits are imposed on Nihilus doesn't exactly neuter him.

agreed

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Interestingly:

The Jedi Exile, cut off from the Force, went in search of the remaining Jedi Masters and, perhaps, an explanation. But the Exile's mentor, Kreia, had other plans–when the Exile finally gathered the Masters, Kreia slew them all. As the Exile recovered from this encounter, Kreia deliberately enticed the terrible Darth Nihilus to the planet Telos Four. Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet, and Nihilus's dreadnought, the Ravager, was met by the Republic Navy and Mandalorian forces. During the battle, the Exile boarded the Ravager and faced Nihilus. Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated. With Telos safe, the Exile pursued Kreia.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (Battle of Telos IV)

---

Also Beni,

Jedi were caught unaware on Katarr. The attack came as a surprise.

Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order's Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr's lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (The Conclave at Katarr)

Nihilus likely positioned his flagship at a distance from where he would not be spotted.

That statement is definitive proof of anything, and could be read as Nihilus preparing to consume the planet, but being interrupted by the Republic fleet.

The second contradicts the notion that he was lying in plain sight for hours, assuming he hid out of range is not only conjecture, but makes little sense. It assumes he can build up the necessary energy for the drain, and then maintain that state for the time it takes to maneuver into position. If that were indeed the case then Nihilus could merely have prepared prior to entering the Telos system, and insta-drained the planet immediately after exiting hyperspace.

(Which for the record, he made no attempt to distance himself from.)

He did not, therefore you theory is flawed. A good rule of thumb in this respect is that the simplest argument, that makes the fewest assumptions, is the most likely to be correct. In this case I feel your argument is more complex, and relies on assumption.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It assumes he can build up the necessary energy for the drain, and then maintain that state for the time it takes to maneuver into position. If that were indeed the case then Nihilus could merely have prepared prior to entering the Telos system, and insta-drained the planet immediately after exiting hyperspace.

You got everything right, except for this.

We've already nailed down the fact that no Canon Source classifies Nihilus' Drain as a ritual - therefore it isn't one.

But yes, all my other points which you mirrored, are spot on. 😉

At certain points I am reminded of just how much of an old-fogey I really am. 😛 😆

I'm waiting patiently for your rebuttal to my post to you, S_W_LeGenD.

I'll be back later to see if you've decided to concede defeat. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Bigblue442
You got everything right, except for this.

We've already nailed down the fact that no [B]Canon Source classifies Nihilus' Drain as a ritual - therefore it isn't one.

But yes, all my other points which you mirrored, are spot on. 😉 [/B]

It has to be a ritual. In normal circumstances he can't drain even a Mandolorian. 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael
It has to be a ritual. In normal circumstances he can't drain even a Mandolorian. 🙂

I suspect it is a mixture, that Canderous didn't actually participate in the fight and kept his distance, far away enough for Nihilus to merely ignore him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which was either because of game mechanics, or because he was beneath Nihilus notice.

I suspect it is a mixture, that Canderous didn't actually participate in the fight and kept his distance, far away enough for Nihilus to merely ignore him.

It certainly wasn't the latter, given that Nihilus deigned to stun him.