Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well, not exactly. Superman of Earth 1(I think it was Earth 1, not entirely sure), and Conner Kent flew him through a red star, to try and de-power him. Prime though still managed to kill Conner, and survive against the JLA afterwords.
It was mainstream Superman (Earth 0) and golden age Superman (Earth 2). And it did mostly depower him although he managed to kill Earth 2 Superman before being defeated by mainstream Supes.
Anyway, Prime wins here.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Whatever.Well, not exactly. Superman of Earth 1(I think it was Earth 1, not entirely sure), and Conner Kent flew him through a red star, to try and de-power him. Prime though still managed to kill Conner, and survive against the JLA afterwords.
Yes though, only about 1%, maybe even less, of the cast of this fight are worth mentioning. The reason the fodder ninja are here though, is so Kaguya can use the gods tree to take their chakra as a battery(since they can revive them with the dragon balls afterwords). The fodder soul reapers are here to feed Juha Bach, and etc. The main characters of both verses, or even side-characters with at least some screen-time(such as Choji, Yumichika, etc.) are involved in the fight further than just being sustenance for stronger characters. Honestly though, Ino, her dad, and the other Yamanaka's, being able to transmit the thoughts of everyone to every other person at once, are VERY useful here, for planning strategies with so many people at once, and executing them.
Get your facts straight, Conner never flew Prime to the3 sun, That was Kal-L and Kal-El.
Conner is Super Boy, who prior to that fight died while fighting Prime.
Also, Prime kills everyone.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Does that not scratch off the "Throw him into a red sun" plan? And isn't the swords temp below the core of a red sun?Why not just add Kaguya and Yhwach at their fullest potentials with select individuals for aid, just like what you did with Goku and King Kai?
Not really. It just depends who's throwing him into the sun, because if he stayed in the core, he'd lose a lot more power than he did against the two Supermen. Yes though, the temp is lower than the core of a red sun, but would still be enough to phase him. Not damage him significantly, but still hurt/stall him.
Well I would do that with Kaguya, but tbh, Kakashi and genjutsu users in Naruto have a better chance against Prime than her, because of Kakashi's hax mangekyo abilities, and the fact that his mental resistance is pretty weak.
Ywach is too big of a variable at this point though. We don't know how strong he is, and we certainly don't have any feats to back it up.
Originally posted by SquallX
Get your facts straight, Conner never flew Prime to the3 sun, That was Kal-L and Kal-El.Conner is Super Boy, who prior to that fight died while fighting Prime.
Also, Prime kills everyone.
Oh, my bad.
Does it really matter though? The feat is still the same: "After a prolonged fight, he survived getting blasted through a red sun, and still managed to kill one Superman.".
So how does Prime resist the genjutsu's placed on him by Itachi, Sasuke, Kaguya, Madara, or any other genjutsu power-houses from Naruto? And how does he kill Kakashi, given that he's intangible for ten minutes. How would he resist Kamui?
Also, what could he do against Aizen's shikai? Prime doesn't have any extra-sensory abilities, just suped-up versions of his normal senses. What would he do when Bazz-B and Yamamoto dump millions of degree's calvin of fire on his head, and Goku is doing even more than that by utilizing attacks hotter than the suns core?
What could he manage to do when there are a dozen people warping him into any red suns they can find, to weaken or kill him?
I'm in no way, shape or form saying this is a definite win for either side, but it's not a piece of cake for Prime either. In fact, it would be a difficult, at least, fight for just about ANYONE in all of fiction.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Ino gets speedblitzed and IT requires ki signatures to work
Well she's not really fighting here, she's just acting as a go-between to communicate with everyone.
Stars have ki signatures. Proven when King Kai told Goku that he could make a much larger spirit bomb on Earth, because the sun was much larger than on his planet. So Goku can basically absorb solar energy too.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Oh, my bad.Does it really matter though? The feat is still the same: "After a prolonged fight, he survived getting blasted through a red sun, and still managed to kill one Superman.".
So how does Prime resist the genjutsu's placed on him by Itachi, Sasuke, Kaguya, Madara, or any other genjutsu power-houses from Naruto? And how does he kill Kakashi, given that he's intangible for ten minutes. How would he resist Kamui?
Also, what could he do against Aizen's shikai? Prime doesn't have any extra-sensory abilities, just suped-up versions of his normal senses. What would he do when Bazz-B and Yamamoto dump millions of degree's calvin of fire on his head, and Goku is doing even more than that by utilizing attacks hotter than the suns core?
What could he manage to do when there are a dozen people warping him into any red suns they can find, to weaken or kill him?
I'm in no way, shape or form saying this is a definite win for either side, but it's not a piece of cake for Prime either. In fact, it would be a difficult, at least, fight for just about ANYONE in all of fiction.
😆
you are so ****ing funny if you think any if those things can hurt Prime.
1. Genjutsu even if it works would still serve no purpose. Why? because with just one casually punch, Prime would annihilate them. Pretty sure Prime has already hit intangible beings already. Kamui is useless when Prime already escaped from a Universal to Multiversal level prison called the Speed Force.
2.Aizen shikai is useless when Prime can just retcon punch all of them. Thinking Bazz-B and Yamamoto' s useless little flames can damage Prime. When he's taking Kal's heat vision that's so hot that it can't be calculated, same heat vison that can reignite dying stars. For god sake, Goku's blast are mot as hot as the as the ****ing sun.
3. Now prove these idiots know where the **** there gonna find a red sun. Now prove how these idiots can bring him to said red sun without dying in space, or not having there necks snaps.
4. Prime baby shakes these useless thrash.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Not really. It just depends who's throwing him into the sun, because if he stayed in the core, he'd lose a lot more power than he did against the two Supermen. Yes though, the temp is lower than the core of a red sun, but would still be enough to phase him. Not damage him significantly, but still hurt/stall him.Well I would do that with Kaguya, but tbh, Kakashi and genjutsu users in Naruto have a better chance against Prime than her, because of Kakashi's hax mangekyo abilities, and the fact that his mental resistance is pretty weak.
Ywach is too big of a variable at this point though. We don't know how strong he is, and we certainly don't have any feats to back it up.
Isn't he notorious for some dimension breaking punch, to escape from one? Something like that. Ah, has he been shown being susceptible to mind tricks
Not having feats is not a good thing. We can only judge him from his showings, maybe discuss hype and comments made.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Two Supes managed do this feat. First it's the assumption that someone will replicate this, then the assumption that they could keep him within longer than two Supes did. But if core, which I May likely be reading wrong be seems to be an awful degree above the swords, did little to nothing, how will the sword?Isn't he notorious for some dimension breaking punch, to escape from one? Something like that. Ah, has he been shown being susceptible to mind tricks
Not having feats is not a good thing. We can only judge him from his showings, maybe discuss hype and comments made.
Yeah, but if two weakened Supermen can achieve the feat, I think the team can as well, considering the SSJG level characters plus have at LEAST galaxy level potency, which is something Prime cannot match in any category other than durability. Goku and Bills or higher could definitely push him into, or through the star. Hell, a handful of Super Saiyan's and a Super Saiyan 2 managed to push Broly through the sun.
The point is that the swords could definitely to some damage, even stun him, especially if he'd been pushed through a red sun. Even a single Green lantern subdued him after that.
Yeah, his retcon punch is pretty crazy. The context is a little skewed the way most people see it, but he did manage to punch his way into another reality. Kind of like how Buu and Gotenks screamed into another reality.
Yeah though, he is pretty susceptible to mind attacks, but he's also able to regenerate from them just like physical attacks, so they aren't a true end-game where he's concerned. Magic doesn't hurt him especially either, so that's out of the question here too.
Originally posted by SquallX
😆you are so ****ing funny if you think any if those things can hurt Prime.
1. Genjutsu even if it works would still serve no purpose. Why? because with just one casually punch, Prime would annihilate them. Pretty sure Prime has already hit intangible beings already. Kamui is useless when Prime already escaped from a Universal to Multiversal level prison called the Speed Force.2.Aizen shikai is useless when Prime can just retcon punch all of them. Thinking Bazz-B and Yamamoto' s useless little flames can damage Prime. When he's taking Kal's heat vision that's so hot that it can't be calculated, same heat vison that can reignite dying stars. For god sake, Goku's blast are mot as hot as the as the ****ing sun.
3. Now prove these idiots know where the **** there gonna find a red sun. Now prove how these idiots can bring him to said red sun without dying in space, or not having there necks snaps.
4. Prime baby shakes these useless thrash.
1. What? How is that in any way, shape or form an argument against Genjutsu? Prime's infantile, fragile mind has shown him to be susceptible to mental attacks before. One good infinite Tsukiyomi should be enough to make him a vegetable.
2. Prime escaped the hold of Bart Allen, who had taken him into the speed force. This is proven by the Speed force being destroyed afterwards, and by Jay Garrick stating the Speed force was gone as soon as he was pushed into it. That feat only proves that Prime is stronger than Bart(which is obvious), and that he can break through dimensions, which we already knew. Prime has universal feats, like surviving the explosion of the Monarch, but that isn't one of them.
3. How can Superboy retcon punch any of them if he doesn't know where they are, and Aizen makes him hit himself with star-wrecking punches because Prime can't control any of his senses? That's the entire point of Kyoka Suigetsu in the first place. 👆
4. Actually, Goku has tanked a laser beam that destroyed an island, Against Gero. You're aware that with even low-balling that feat, the temperatures in that laser would be around 11 times hotter than the suns core, right? That is something Prime has only dealt with at his peak, and even then he had trouble.
5. King Kai is in contact with Goku. He knows the location of every star, and planet in his section of the universe. He could point out the source of ki to Goku, and Goku could teleport to it. Or, you know, Whiss could simply warp them to it, or tell him where it is, considering he has divination, capable of nigh-omniscience.
6. Goku could ram him through the star because he has done so to something like three enemies before. However, Goku is not as physically strong as Prime. Therefor, it would take a strong ki attack from Goku, like a kamehameha wave. This would work because SSJG Goku is around the level of Vegetto, who punched through Buu's multiversal barrier, as Buu was screaming so hard that it had the potential to destroy the all of reality.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, but if two weakened Supermen can achieve the feat, I think the team can as well, considering the SSJG level characters plus have at LEAST galaxy level potency, which is something Prime cannot match in any category other than durability. Goku and Bills or higher could definitely push him into, or through the star. Hell, a handful of Super Saiyan's and a Super Saiyan 2 managed to push Broly through the sun.The point is that the swords could definitely to some damage, even stun him, especially if he'd been pushed through a red sun. Even a single Green lantern subdued him after that.
Yeah, his retcon punch is pretty crazy. The context is a little skewed the way most people see it, but he did manage to punch his way into another reality. Kind of like how Buu and Gotenks screamed into another reality.
Yeah though, he is pretty susceptible to mind attacks, but he's also able to regenerate from them just like physical attacks, so they aren't a true end-game where he's concerned. Magic doesn't hurt him especially either, so that's out of the question here too.
Why though? A red giant core can be around 100mil C, nearly 10 times the blades temperature, they they went pretty much directly through the middle. And it barely effected them. Superman, who was already beaten (I'd assume), weakened by Knite surrounding them and getting weaker from red sun radiation only said that "Everything was hot" while showing no other signs that the heat and flames were doing much. SBP > Superman > A beaten + Red sun + Kryptonite Superman > Finding 100mil C to be only "Hot". I can't see 15mil doing more to SBP than 100mil did to such a weakened Supes.
So BFR isn't a win? Also, example on the mind attacks? Because if physical attacks, energy attacks, Red Sun tactics and BFRing wont work, mental attacks will literally be the only option even if limited to when he recovers.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Weakened, maybe. But they were still strong enough to hold off a pre-red sun SBP to do this feat. And don't forget they did this with physical strength to restrain him. Being pushed by a blast won't hold him in place like duel grappling will. The only reason it happened with Cooler and Broly is because both were weakened. Cooler being struck with greater force than when Gohan winded Cell, and a weak point strike for Broly, plus Cooler didn't even notice he was heading for the Sun until the last second..Why though? A red giant core can be around 100mil C, nearly 10 times the blades temperature, they they went pretty much directly through the middle. And it barely effected them. Superman, who was already beaten (I'd assume), weakened by Knite surrounding them and getting weaker from red sun radiation only said that "Everything was hot" while showing no other signs that the heat and flames were doing much. SBP > Superman > A beaten + Red sun + Kryptonite Superman > Finding 100mil C to be only "Hot". I can't see 15mil doing more to SBP than 100mil did to such a weakened Supes.
So BFR isn't a win? Also, example on the mind attacks? Because if physical attacks, energy attacks, Red Sun tactics and BFRing wont work, mental attacks will literally be the only option even if limited to when he recovers.
What? How would a kamehameha not hold him in place? Every other time it's been used in DBZ, it has held the character back, unless they had up a barrier, or were simply so strong they could tank it. Plus, who's to say that only one person would be blasting him? With Gohan, Vegeta, Whiss, Bills, SSJG Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, Piccolo, etc., blasting Prime all at once, or something like that, the blast alone would hurt him more than the red sun. Not to mention that if that attack was stacked on top of the weakness to the red sun, would have a DEFINITE chance of killing him. Not just that, but what if Aizen cast shikai on him just before they warped him? Then Prime could think he's flying away, and actually be flying into the blast, or even the red sun. Also, knowing how cocky Prime is, and how scared of losing his powers he is, he would undoubtedly fly into the wave before flying away and being called a coward.
Again, if Prime was weakened, and facing attacks from the Z-fighters, that 15 million wouldn't feel too good to him. He would definitely be hurt by it, and probably stunned, even if he wasn't damaged seriously.
Well physical attacks would definitely work, they just wouldn't be a real way to end the fight. Energy attacks would be able to though, given the ridiculous power behind the energy beams in DBZ. Mind attacks would definitely incapacitate him, they just wouldn't kill him. However, Goku throwing his comatose body into a red sun, and blowing it up definitely WOULD.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? How would a kamehameha not hold him in place? Every other time it's been used in DBZ, it has held the character back, unless they had up a barrier, or were simply so strong they could tank it. Plus, who's to say that only one person would be blasting him? With Gohan, Vegeta, Whiss, Bills, SSJG Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, Piccolo, etc., blasting Prime all at once, or something like that, the blast alone would hurt him more than the red sun. Not to mention that if that attack was stacked on top of the weakness to the red sun, would have a DEFINITE chance of killing him. Not just that, but what if Aizen cast shikai on him just before they warped him? Then Prime could think he's flying away, and actually be flying into the blast, or even the red sun. Also, knowing how cocky Prime is, and how scared of losing his powers he is, he would undoubtedly fly into the wave before flying away and being called a coward.Again, if Prime was weakened, and facing attacks from the Z-fighters, that 15 million wouldn't feel too good to him. He would definitely be hurt by it, and probably stunned, even if he wasn't damaged seriously.
Well physical attacks would definitely work, they just wouldn't be a real way to end the fight. Energy attacks would be able to though, given the ridiculous power behind the energy beams in DBZ. Mind attacks would definitely incapacitate him, they just wouldn't kill him. However, Goku throwing his comatose body into a red sun, and blowing it up definitely WOULD.
It has only worked on far weaker opponents. Vegeta was already banged up and faced an attack stronger than what he can take. The same for Cooler. And Broly because of weakness exploitation. Whenever a character fires at a stronger character, they can deflect it before exploding or stand up to it. Or very simply for SBP, he can move. Thats why I focused on the grapple, because it limits his movement.
Even under those circumstances.. for what possible reason? So 15mil will hurt and stun a red sun SBP... where 100mil was barely an issue to a red sun Supes who not only was already weaker than him, but was also suffering damage and the effects of Kryptonite? How does this make sense to you?
Okay so dropping physical and energy attacks, mind attacks. Can you show me him being especially vulnerable to them? Or is there no specific showings, which would put him on similar level of Superman in that regard.
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I feel there's too much of a story here for Team 2 to win;
-Will these mental attacks work on him? Can they take place before he wipes them out? Would they even work that well? For how long before he, as said to me, recovers from them?
-Has King Kai shown pinpointing specific stars? Can Goku teleport to a thought without a ki there to track? Can he be teleported without him tearing the porter apart?
-Does anyone have a method of throwing him into a red sun without him resisting or straight up tanking it? How many can survive without any oxygen?
Or a what if. What if SBP flips, or maybe hazed from some mental attack, destroys the planet? There'd only be a very small handful of DB characters left.
Originally posted by BloodRain
It has only worked on far weaker opponents. Vegeta was already banged up and faced an attack stronger than what he can take. The same for Cooler. And Broly because of weakness exploitation. Whenever a character fires at a stronger character, they can deflect it before exploding or stand up to it. Or very simply for SBP, he can move. Thats why I focused on the grapple, because it limits his movement.Even under those circumstances.. for what possible reason? So 15mil will hurt and stun a red sun SBP... where 100mil was barely an issue to a red sun Supes who not only was already weaker than him, but was also suffering damage and the effects of Kryptonite? How does this make sense to you?
Okay so dropping physical and energy attacks, mind attacks. Can you show me him being especially vulnerable to them? Or is there no specific showings, which would put him on similar level of Superman in that regard.
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I feel there's too much of a story here for Team 2 to win;
-Will these mental attacks work on him? Can they take place before he wipes them out? Would they even work that well? For how long before he, as said to me, recovers from them?
-Has King Kai shown pinpointing specific stars? Can Goku teleport to a thought without a ki there to track? Can he be teleported without him tearing the porter apart?
-Does anyone have a method of throwing him into a red sun without him resisting or straight up tanking it? How many can survive without any oxygen?Or a what if. What if SBP flips, or maybe hazed from some mental attack, destroys the planet? There'd only be a very small handful of DB characters left.
No, it's worked on plenty of people in the past, even if they were much stronger than the person blasting them. This is because the attacks are either too fast, or big for the other to dodge. Such as when Gohan killed Cell with his kamehameha wave, or when Kid Buu got killed by the spirit bomb. If the blast is strong enough, the person on the receiving end can't just swim out of it. If a universe potent blast hits him head on, he isn't resisting the gravity behind it, considering two weakened Supermen were able to hold him. Plus, what about Amaterasu, which is supposed to be as hot as the sun?
Prime has been hurt by less. A LOT less. The thing is, he simply won't die from anything short of universe+ level power. The 15 mil would definitely be enough to stun him, considering he was hurt by Terra smashing rocks into him.
Mind attacks? Yeah, he was devastated by them when he fought Martian Manhunter, and when Nightshade attacked him. Not so much when Nightshade attacked him, but it showed him to be basically terrified of the dark, and unable to fight in it.
Superboy has never faced mental attacks of the quality and degree of those shown in Naruto and Bleach. It's possible he wouldn't recover from them at all, but he definitely wouldn't heal from them within a few minutes. They would cause him serious damage, and they could be landed on him because Goku and co. could give a distraction to allow it. Again though, physical and energy attacks from the Z-fighters would definitely work on him. Especially with fusion or something, which Prime's arrogant self would probably sit by and let them accomplish.
Yes though, plenty of the characters here can warp him into the sun without him resisting, like Kakashi, Sasuke, Kaguya, and possibly Gremmy. And King Kai was able to instantly tell the Z-fighters the specific location of planet Namek, and even the location of the Saiyan pods as they were coming to Earth, even how long it would take them to get there. He was also able to transmit Goku's voice to every living being in the universe, like it was nothing.
However, it doesn't really matter. Goku could just grab him, warp him there, and fly him through it, since Goku can tank those temps easy, and isn't weakened by a red sun. It wouldn't be that simple, since Prime would be fighting back the whole time, but it's very possible, especially for Whiss. As long as they don't let him get his power back, they could win.
I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. The BFR approach could work but the problem is assuming Goku should do it. Since this is the DBZ verse in general why not have Cell or Pure Buu do it: they has IT, regen, and can survive in space. Have Beerus or the like hold him down and then poof.
Course that's very unlikely to happen and SBP is faster/stronger than anyone here. Also there's the problem of not knowing where a Red Sun is and SBP resisting and flying back to finish off the rest.
Cell isnt in this thread. And Buu? His anime self could in theory. But who honestly see's the maniac doing the grab/port and blasting him towards a specific sun by a random Kai's instruction?
Yeah, the speed and strength just throws it under a bus.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, it's worked on plenty of people in the past, even if they were much stronger than the person blasting them. This is because the attacks are either too fast, or big for the other to dodge. Such as when Gohan killed Cell with his kamehameha wave, or when Kid Buu got killed by the spirit bomb. If the blast is strong enough, the person on the receiving end can't just swim out of it. If a universe potent blast hits him head on, he isn't resisting the gravity behind it, considering two weakened Supermen were able to hold him. Plus, what about Amaterasu, which is supposed to be as hot as the sun?Prime has been hurt by less. A LOT less. The thing is, he simply won't die from anything short of universe+ level power. The 15 mil would definitely be enough to stun him, considering he was hurt by Terra smashing rocks into him.
Mind attacks? Yeah, he was devastated by them when he fought Martian Manhunter, and when Nightshade attacked him. Not so much when Nightshade attacked him, but it showed him to be basically terrified of the dark, and unable to fight in it.
Superboy has never faced mental attacks of the quality and degree of those shown in Naruto and Bleach. It's possible he wouldn't recover from them at all, but he definitely wouldn't heal from them within a few minutes. They would cause him serious damage, and they could be landed on him because Goku and co. could give a distraction to allow it. Again though, physical and energy attacks from the Z-fighters would definitely work on him. Especially with fusion or something, which Prime's arrogant self would probably sit by and let them accomplish.
Yes though, plenty of the characters here can warp him into the sun without him resisting, like Kakashi, Sasuke, Kaguya, and possibly Gremmy. And King Kai was able to instantly tell the Z-fighters the specific location of planet Namek, and even the location of the Saiyan pods as they were coming to Earth, even how long it would take them to get there. He was also able to transmit Goku's voice to every living being in the universe, like it was nothing.
However, it doesn't really matter. Goku could just grab him, warp him there, and fly him through it, since Goku can tank those temps easy, and isn't weakened by a red sun. It wouldn't be that simple, since Prime would be fighting back the whole time, but it's very possible, especially for Whiss. As long as they don't let him get his power back, they could win.
Cell was vaporized. Buu /was/ pushing back, which supports what I'm saying as it was an attack just around his level. As you said, it is if the attack is strong enough. And theirs aren't. Especially one without a charge up, which I can't imagine going so well. Sorry, but Ama isn't something to be considered. Assuming the databook didn't throw in another hyperbole like lightspeed Haku, which the manga says it did, thats still only 5k C. Nothing for this thread.
Okay look. If you want to talk heat, talk heat. If you want my input, respond to what I'm saying about the topic. I just want you to answer this: If Superman weakened to such a great extent only remarked that 100mil was hot, for what possible reason will SBP be bothered?
Scans if possible? Only read that MM read his mind at one point, and I know Nightshade just triggered his darkness issues, not a mental attack.
Haven't other Kyrptonians? I've read up that they have more resistance than humans, from MM. So which Genjutsus? Most iirc are broken with physical contact, as do they need.. in this case dangerous circumstances. Which ones will be able to pinpoint a such a mobile combatant who is tangling with others?
Care to show me a shred of evidence that begins to suggest they can warp someone 150Mm away? The key part there being Kai sensing other people, which I said is not the same as sensing a star.
Assuming this all could work, the plan falls flat if Goku dies as he is the only character here who can teleport across such a vast distance. It doesn't help that he can't breath deep in space. Besides Goku needing to grapple such a powerful foe, he will need to port, position Prime, charge up a strong enough blast that Prime wont be able to resist, and hit him before he moves or attacks all while holding his breath... And he's alone by the way. The only way to bring others is through physical contact. Do you see him with a group touching his body trying to tag Prime?