DBZ(plus Naruto and Bleach) VS Superboy Prime

Originally posted by BloodRain
Cell isnt in this thread. And Buu? His anime self could in theory. But who honestly see's the maniac doing the grab/port and blasting him towards a specific sun by a random Kai's instruction?

Yeah, the speed and strength just throws it under a bus.

Cell was vaporized. Buu /was/ pushing back, which supports what I'm saying as it was an attack just around his level. As you said, it is if the attack is strong enough. And theirs aren't. Especially one without a charge up, which I can't imagine going so well. Sorry, but Ama isn't something to be considered. Assuming the databook didn't throw in another hyperbole like lightspeed Haku, which the manga says it did, thats still only 5k C. Nothing for this thread.

Okay look. If you want to talk heat, talk heat. If you want my input, respond to what I'm saying about the topic. I just want you to answer this: If Superman weakened to such a great extent only remarked that 100mil was hot, for what possible reason will SBP be bothered?

Scans if possible? Only read that MM read his mind at one point, and I know Nightshade just triggered his darkness issues, not a mental attack.

Haven't other Kyrptonians? I've read up that they have more resistance than humans, from MM. So which Genjutsus? Most iirc are broken with physical contact, as do they need.. in this case dangerous circumstances. Which ones will be able to pinpoint a such a mobile combatant who is tangling with others?

Care to show me a shred of evidence that begins to suggest they can warp someone 150Mm away? The key part there being Kai sensing other people, which I said is not the same as sensing a star.

Assuming this all could work, the plan falls flat if Goku dies as he is the only character here who can teleport across such a vast distance. It doesn't help that he can't breath deep in space. Besides Goku needing to grapple such a powerful foe, he will need to port, position Prime, charge up a strong enough blast that Prime wont be able to resist, and hit him before he moves or attacks all while holding his breath... And he's alone by the way. The only way to bring others is through physical contact. Do you see him with a group touching his body trying to tag Prime?

No, Cell's in this thread. Super Perfect Cell. Sorry I didn't specify, just figured people would assume. Pure/Kid Buu is also, as well as Good/Mr. Buu, and Super Buu(assume he somehow kept his absorptions, even though Gohan and co. are here as well). I didn't think I'd have to list every character that was in this, my bad. Anyway though, they could just have Cell warp him, and have the Buu's, Bills and Whiss gang up on him to kill him after they push him through the red sun.

Also, I'm just pointing out here that Prime is immune to magic, so nobody should bring up the Buu's candy beam ability.

The speed and strength throws what under a bus?

Yeah, but going by your logic, Cell could have just flown out of it, since he was still as strong as Gohan. Buu only managed to push the spirit bomb back because Goku was completely drained, and out of energy. It was still very hard for Buu though, which further proves how difficult it is to push away a ki attack once it hits you.

Again, they wouldn't do much to him, but less has been used to stun or subdue him before. He would definitely be hurt by it. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that touching a hot frying pan won't hurt someone, because they survived touching the fire itself. It would still hurt him, which would stun him, even if only briefly.

I have most of the comic series, but I don't own the one where MM actually invaded Prime's mind, which is the Sinestro corps wars series. He invaded his mind though, and said that while he was weak to mental attacks, they can't do irreversible damage to him, at least by J'onn's standards. However, MM is pretty strong with mental attacks and the like, so I just made his equal to those like Tsukiyomi and Koto. They can damage him, but not kill him. IT would definitely incapacitate him though. The way MM explained it, was that Prime's damaged mental state made it hard to read his thoughts in the first place, let alone control him.

No, the genjutsu in Naruto isn't broken by physical contact. It can only be broken by directly injecting your chakra into the person under it. That, or releasing it before succumbing to it, or even by breaking out of it by flaring off so much energy that you dispel it. The reason Prime can't do that, is because no one would inject chakra into him(and all sharingan exclusive genjutsu happen instantly), and he doesn't know how to release them, and he also doesn't have a way to flare his energy. The only way for him to avoid genjutsu would be to avoid being caught in it, which wouldn't be easy if all he had to do was be touched by the light of the moon, and he didn't know that it would affect him.

Well, none of the people mentioned have ever had trouble with the distance they were warping things, only with the size of them, or the amount of times they had to do it. Also, now that I think about it, Cell could just warp him to the stars core, then warp himself out, and wait for Prime to come out, then attack him with the Buu's, Bills, Whiss, and whatever Saiyan's come to fight him.

Also, in regards to the Goku oxygen thing, I think that is specifically because of the fact that Goku was never trained by Saiyan's. The reason, I think, is something to do with a special training given to Saiyan's to be able to control how much they need to breathe, or something along those lines. The reason I think this, is because Goku has been shown needing oxygen, but Vegeta and other Saiyan's like Bardock, have been able to stay in outer space for extended periods of time with no trouble. Also, either way, Goku can still make a barrier to breathe in space with, just like Broly has been shown capable of.

Well, not true actually. Either Cell, or Goku could actually warp Prime, and the other could be touching everyone else, and warp them to the one who warped Prime. Also, Bills and Whiss could just fly there, since they wouldn't have to cross presumably more than 88 light years or so, and they crossed thousands of galaxies in less than 20 minutes or so. With that speed, it would literally take them less than a tenth of a second to cross 1,000 light years, let alone 100. Also, King Kai can locate a star, and point it's energy out to Goku, or Cell. They can sense the energy, because Goku(and by extension, Cell) can use the energy of a star to fuel his spirit bomb.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Reality Breaking Punch>all

Idk, Super Buu, Buuhan, SSJ3 Gotenks, and all other DBZ characters above them have reality breaking screams.

Reality Breaking scream >= Reality Breaking punch, in my book.

Punch > Suicidal scream

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Again, they wouldn't do much to him, but less has been used to stun or subdue him before. He would definitely be hurt by it. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that touching a hot frying pan won't hurt someone, because they survived touching the fire itself. It would still hurt him, which would stun him, even if only briefly.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, Cell's in this thread. Super Perfect Cell. Sorry I didn't specify, just figured people would assume. Pure/Kid Buu is also, as well as Good/Mr. Buu, and Super Buu(assume he somehow kept his absorptions, even though Gohan and co. are here as well). I didn't think I'd have to list every character that was in this, my bad. Anyway though, they could just have Cell warp him, and have the Buu's, Bills and Whiss gang up on him to kill him after they push him through the red sun.

Also, I'm just pointing out here that Prime is immune to magic, so nobody should bring up the Buu's candy beam ability.

The speed and strength throws what under a bus?

Yeah, but going by your logic, Cell could have just flown out of it, since he was still as strong as Gohan. Buu only managed to push the spirit bomb back because Goku was completely drained, and out of energy. It was still very hard for Buu though, which further proves how difficult it is to push away a ki attack once it hits you.

Again, they wouldn't do much to him, but less has been used to stun or subdue him before. He would definitely be hurt by it. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that touching a hot frying pan won't hurt someone, because they survived touching the fire itself. It would still hurt him, which would stun him, even if only briefly.

Well, none of the people mentioned have ever had trouble with the distance they were warping things, only with the size of them, or the amount of times they had to do it. Also, now that I think about it, Cell could just warp him to the stars core, then warp himself out, and wait for Prime to come out, then attack him with the Buu's, Bills, Whiss, and whatever Saiyan's come to fight him.

Also, in regards to the Goku oxygen thing, I think that is specifically because of the fact that Goku was never trained by Saiyan's. The reason, I think, is something to do with a special training given to Saiyan's to be able to control how much they need to breathe, or something along those lines. The reason I think this, is because Goku has been shown needing oxygen, but Vegeta and other Saiyan's like Bardock, have been able to stay in outer space for extended periods of time with no trouble. Also, either way, Goku can still make a barrier to breathe in space with, just like Broly has been shown capable of.

Well, not true actually. Either Cell, or Goku could actually warp Prime, and the other could be touching everyone else, and warp them to the one who warped Prime. Also, Bills and Whiss could just fly there, since they wouldn't have to cross presumably more than 88 light years or so, and they crossed thousands of galaxies in less than 20 minutes or so. With that speed, it would literally take them less than a tenth of a second to cross 1,000 light years, let alone 100. Also, King Kai can locate a star, and point it's energy out to Goku, or Cell. They can sense the energy, because Goku(and by extension, Cell) can use the energy of a star to fuel his spirit bomb.

When you list specific dead characters then say it includes all living ones, it give that impression. But alright. Problem is that now we're having a character who is much weaker than SGGoku, making the chances that he'll both tag and grapple SBP long enough even slimmer.

Well no, because Cell didn't get pushed back for starts. He was instantly vaped. Fact is that he managed to because the strength difference between them went in Buu's favour.

The furthest distance someone has transported anything would technically be wherever the summon animals live. Even hypothetically on the other side of the planet, that's nothing to teleporting something 88 Lightyears away. Sorry, but this part needs proof. Cell would die instantly. And again, has King Kai ever shown to be able to sense locations not focused on a Ki signal? Or have the ITers been shown to port to a unfamiliar, non ki signal zone, based on word alone?

Vegeta and Bardock was only shown in filler. Either way it would exclude Goku, who has not shown the ability to form a space barrier.

Even just now knowing that Cell is present, he is still vastly weaker than SGGoku, whose chances of a grapple/port were already low. So in this fantastic situation, does the group hand-holding happen before or after the first somehow manages to port him away?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I have most of the comic series, but I don't own the one where MM actually invaded Prime's mind, which is the Sinestro corps wars series. He invaded his mind though, and said that while he was weak to mental attacks, they can't do irreversible damage to him, at least by J'onn's standards. However, MM is pretty strong with mental attacks and the like, so I just made his equal to those like Tsukiyomi and Koto. They can damage him, but not kill him. IT would definitely incapacitate him though. The way MM explained it, was that Prime's damaged mental state made it hard to read his thoughts in the first place, let alone control him.

No, the genjutsu in Naruto isn't broken by physical contact. It can only be broken by directly injecting your chakra into the person under it. That, or releasing it before succumbing to it, or even by breaking out of it by flaring off so much energy that you dispel it. The reason Prime can't do that, is because no one would inject chakra into him(and all sharingan exclusive genjutsu happen instantly), and he doesn't know how to release them, and he also doesn't have a way to flare his energy. The only way for him to avoid genjutsu would be to avoid being caught in it, which wouldn't be easy if all he had to do was be touched by the light of the moon, and he didn't know that it would affect him.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Punch > Suicidal scream

Don't use the word equivalent if the example doesn't remotely come close. What its really like is you finding a 40ºC day to be as hot as Supes found the core, and then being attacked by temperatures of 6ºC. Or being able to take 100ºC then hit with 15ºC. One of those temps would scald you, the other is somewhat cool to the touch. Just to solidify this, old Yama will also have to get within slash range for this. Ama covers this range, but is also of lower temps.

When you list specific dead characters then say it includes all living ones, it give that impression. But alright. Problem is that now we're having a character who is much weaker than SGGoku, making the chances that he'll both tag and grapple SBP long enough even slimmer.

Well no, because Cell didn't get pushed back for starts. He was instantly vaped. Fact is that he managed to because the strength difference between them went in Buu's favour.

The furthest distance someone has transported anything would technically be wherever the summon animals live. Even hypothetically on the other side of the planet, that's nothing to teleporting something 88 Lightyears away. Sorry, but this part needs proof. Cell would die instantly. And again, has King Kai ever shown to be able to sense locations not focused on a Ki signal? Or have the ITers been shown to port to a unfamiliar, non ki signal zone, based on word alone?

Vegeta and Bardock was only shown in filler. Either way it would exclude Goku, who has not shown the ability to form a space barrier.

Even just now knowing that Cell is present, he is still vastly weaker than SGGoku, whose chances of a grapple/port were already low. So in this fantastic situation, does the group hand-holding happen before or after the first somehow manages to port him away?

Wait. J'onns the strongest telepath within main recurring characters, and is praised in DC for his mental abilities. If he has issues with SBPs mind, controlling (Tsukuyomi) or even implanting memories (Koto), what chances will Naruto characters have? Oh, and wouldn't Heatbeams count? It's the same as what the DB side said about Naruto, that a ki blast would disrupt it.

The scream was never stated to be suicidal, lol.

No, SBP has been hurt by lower temps. He's just not good with pain. I can provide scans. The only reason he can survive the sun temps, is because his overall durability is monstrous, he can survive even a universe exploding on him. But he's hurt from Superboy's heat vision. Again, that's like being able to survive touching a hot frying pan, and also touching the stove itself. You'd get burned from both, albeit not as badly from the pan.

Whatever. The force would be too much for Prime to simply swim away from.

Alright, I already said my bad, so... Anyway, Cell also has Cell jr.'s he can spawn to help him out, and he has regeneration as well as monstrous physical strength at least on par with Supe's. He stopped a planet destroying asteroid from it's collision with Earth effortlessly, and with one hand. Him and the Jr.'s could definitely hold Prime down.

Well Kaguya warped to different planets several times, and did so easily. Also, yes, King Kai pointed the ki out to Goku of New Namek in the Cell saga to find Dende. New Namek was in a different galaxy. Also, again, stars have ki. Otherwise Goku wouldn't be able to use the sun's energy in a spirit bomb.

Yeah, but Goku also has clearly fought in outer space before. It just chalks up to PIS, so I just think of it as cannon. Plus, the scene where Vegeta got SSJ1 was supported in the Daizenshuu, so it adds some validity to it.

Yeah he's weaker than Goku, but Goku would be able to grapple Prime no problem. Cell, as I already proved, has greater strength than almost all Hulk's, and Goku is much stronger than Cell. Prime would have little chance against a grapple from Cell, and absolutely none against Goku. He'd have even less chance with Cell, if his Jr.'s were helping him.

Doesn't matter. They could all use Kaguya to warp them to the other planet. Also, remember that Obito used Sakura's chakra, and was able to warp a lot further, making it to a different planet. I bet Kaguya could use one of the Buu's ki or something to warp them all to the planet they found themselves on after Prime got smashed through the red sun.

Well J'onnz does have very strong TP, but he's never shown something as impressive as Itachi's, or Shisui's genjutsu mangekyo's, or especially as impressive as IT. And no, heat beams are from Prime's vision. The reason DBZ characters are accepted to be immune to genjutsu/illusions/etc. from Naruto and Bleach is because they have ki sense, which is a sixth sense in the series. Naruto and Bleach characters can control all five senses, but not a sixth one. This means SBP would be incapacitated by IT, and unable to resist, or stop the illusion, because all his senses would be controlled.

How does prime counter all of the illusionary magic techniques in these verses?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
The scream was never stated to be suicidal, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, SBP has been hurt by lower temps. He's just not good with pain. I can provide scans. The only reason he can survive the sun temps, is because his overall durability is monstrous, he can survive even a universe exploding on him. But he's hurt from Superboy's heat vision. Again, that's like being able to survive touching a hot frying pan, and also touching the stove itself. You'd get burned from both, albeit not as badly from the pan.

Once again, horrible examples as both temps are relatively close. 100milC vs 15milC, just like 100C vs 15C aka water out of a boiled kettle vs hand under the cold water tap. That's the difference.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Whatever. The force would be too much for Prime to simply swim away from.

Alright, I already said my bad, so... Anyway, Cell also has Cell jr.'s he can spawn to help him out, and he has regeneration as well as monstrous physical strength at least on par with Supe's. He stopped a planet destroying asteroid from it's collision with Earth effortlessly, and with one hand. Him and the Jr.'s could definitely hold Prime down.

Well Kaguya warped to different planets several times, and did so easily. Also, yes, King Kai pointed the ki out to Goku of New Namek in the Cell saga to find Dende. New Namek was in a different galaxy. Also, again, stars have ki. Otherwise Goku wouldn't be able to use the sun's energy in a spirit bomb.

Yeah, but Goku also has clearly fought in outer space before. It just chalks up to PIS, so I just think of it as cannon. Plus, the scene where Vegeta got SSJ1 was supported in the Daizenshuu, so it adds some validity to it.

Yeah he's weaker than Goku, but Goku would be able to grapple Prime no problem. Cell, as I already proved, has greater strength than almost all Hulk's, and Goku is much stronger than Cell. Prime would have little chance against a grapple from Cell, and absolutely none against Goku. He'd have even less chance with Cell, if his Jr.'s were helping him.

Doesn't matter. They could all use Kaguya to warp them to the other planet. Also, remember that Obito used Sakura's chakra, and was able to warp a lot further, making it to a different planet. I bet Kaguya could use one of the Buu's ki or something to warp them all to the planet they found themselves on after Prime got smashed through the red sun.

Nothing says its a planet buster in the dubbed, and there is nothing to scale how large it is. However even if we assume its a lifewiper like the dino one which was 5km long, it would only take 125Mt to destroy it. Thats City/Mountain level strength. Anyhow it faces issue as we can clearly hear the ki sound that seems obvious it ki related as he was touching it with an open palm. Either way it wouldn't be Supes strength.

She was dimension hopping. Yes, to find a specific Ki among a planet full of Ki lifeforms. Also an issue has popped up. It took Goku needing to be focusing in the right direction and a few seconds to pinpoint it before he could port. And this was with a planet full of familiar Ki, so even if its argued Kai can sense the Sun, Goku without that sophisticated sensing will fall short. These moments won't work so well while holding onto SBP. Besides, he states in the Buu saga that his IT is limited by distance. That he couldn't get to New Namek as he could barely sense their Ki.

When? PIS would be them fighting in space, not the reverse. Its shown several times that they depend on oxygen. Needing to hold breath under water, Broly needing it (anime), Cell flying into space and praising Frieza's genes to allow this (anime), and Frieza himself with his 30 years of Saiyan experience acknowledged this fact.

Now its been established its a dimension hop, does the hand holding for this hypothetical IT manouver happen before or after someone ports him away?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well J'onnz does have very strong TP, but he's never shown something as impressive as Itachi's, or Shisui's genjutsu mangekyo's, or especially as impressive as IT. And no, heat beams are from Prime's vision. The reason DBZ characters are accepted to be immune to genjutsu/illusions/etc. from Naruto and Bleach is because they have ki sense, which is a sixth sense in the series. Naruto and Bleach characters can control all five senses, but not a sixth one. This means SBP would be incapacitated by IT, and unable to resist, or stop the illusion, because all his senses would be controlled.

Reading through his powers, what would that be? Illusions and influencing thoughts, mind control, forced sleep, and like Tsuku he can doing a mind wreck, further is flat shutting a mind down. Even implanting memories an reprogramming minds. IIRC lower characters can replicate their genjutsu. And no, in every event it has never been mentioned or in any way applauded that its due to their ability to sense ki, but to manipulate it in some way. Most mentioned being ki blasts.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Because Buu can survive dimensions crashing on on his own? If he cannot survive the aftereffects, its a suicide scream.

Is this then shrugging off the weakened Superman's own words while flying through that star?

Once again, horrible examples as both temps are relatively close. 100milC vs 15milC, just like 100C vs 15C aka water out of a boiled kettle vs hand under the cold water tap. That's the difference.

I hope your style isnt to just shrug off a debate and just throw out your opinion. Broly was weakened. Cooler was weakened and faced an attack far above this capacity. Cell was insta vaped, as was Buu when he was unable to push it back. What examples do you have where a character is unable to resist the push? The only one where it was on more equal terms is Goku vs Vegeta, but even then Vegeta proved you can hop off of an attack even more powerful than yourself when already battered. Thats more than enough proof against.

Nothing says its a planet buster in the dubbed, and there is nothing to scale how large it is. However even if we assume its a lifewiper like the dino one which was 5km long, it would only take 125Mt to destroy it. Thats City/Mountain level strength. Anyhow it faces issue as we can clearly hear the ki sound that seems obvious it ki related as he was touching it with an open palm. Either way it wouldn't be Supes strength.

She was dimension hopping. Yes, to find a specific Ki among a planet full of Ki lifeforms. Also an issue has popped up. It took Goku needing to be focusing in the right direction and a few seconds to pinpoint it before he could port. And this was with a planet full of familiar Ki, so even if its argued Kai can sense the Sun, Goku without that sophisticated sensing will fall short. These moments won't work so well while holding onto SBP. Besides, he states in the Buu saga that his IT is limited by distance. That he couldn't get to New Namek as he could barely sense their Ki.

When? PIS would be them fighting in space, not the reverse. Its shown several times that they depend on oxygen. Needing to hold breath under water, Broly needing it (anime), Cell flying into space and praising Frieza's genes to allow this (anime), and Frieza himself with his 30 years of Saiyan experience acknowledged this fact.

Now its been established its a dimension hop, does the hand holding for this hypothetical IT manouver happen before or after someone ports him away?

Reading through his powers, what would that be? Illusions and influencing thoughts, mind control, forced sleep, and like Tsuku he can doing a mind wreck, further is flat shutting a mind down. Even implanting memories an reprogramming minds. IIRC lower characters can replicate their genjutsu. And no, in every event it has never been mentioned or in any way applauded that its due to their ability to sense ki, but to manipulate it in some way. Most mentioned being ki blasts.

Yes. If Buu can generate the ki to destroy every dimension, then he can generate the ki to survive that level of destruction. That's why he had up a barrier. Also, Prime didn't survive dimensions crashing into his own. He survived being caught in between dimensions. Something Buu definitely could, considering he doesn't need a power source like Prime does, he can regenerate from less than subatomic particles, and he doesn't need oxygen.

What words? Prime didn't say anything while being flown through Rao. He was just screaming as his flesh melted away.

Also, are you forgetting the speed that they flew through Rao at? They were flying hundreds of thousands of times the speed of light. They were in contact with Rao for about a millionth of a second. The heat from Rao wasn't even what damaged Prime the most, it was the red solar radiation. They didn't experience even near the full heat of the star. It's like when you wave your hand over a flame, and you're hand moves so fast you don't even feel it.

No, that's not enough proof against. lol, you literally just pointed out one example of a dozen, and even admitted Vegeta was also weakened there. That was, in fact, probably the MOST uneven example, considering Vegeta was able to fight on par with Kaioken X3 Goku. In case you forgot, Goku was really weakened too. Either way, if someone is stronger, it's obviously proven that they can hit someone with the full brunt of a blast. Another good example is how Frieza, who was even stronger than Kaioken X20 Goku had to make another blast of his own just to stop Goku's kamehameha, and couldn't just fly away from it. Again, the only times that's ever happened was when the character waving it off was much stronger than the character shooting it, or they had a barrier up. Hell, Prime couldn't shrug off the Monarch's quantum blasts, that are around as strong as Buu tier blast, and that was with several buff's he doesn't have here. Goku and co have blasts stronger than he could block/redirect, and faster than he could fly away from without a warning. He can't fight and dodge at speeds nearly as high as Goku and co, even though his flight speed is comparable to Bills/Whiss.

Idk about the dub, but in the jap version, Cell says, "Hm, a meteor this size would have the entire planet thanking me for their lives. I think I'll give them a good show instead.". And even assuming it to be a simple life-wiping meteor, doing so to several continents, and not just one super continent like the dino-one, it would have to be approximately 15, or even more, km in diameter. And btw, the dinosaur killing meteor that made the Chicxulub crater in Mexico was "AT LEAST 10 km(6mi) in diameter.", not five. Anyway, a meteor that size would yield around 200 million megatons. Not just that, but Cell stopped that effortlessly with one hand. Now, taking average meteor speed into consideration, the lack of deceleration because of the atmosphere, since Cell was in space with it, that size meteor would yield, to Cell's hand, around 215 million megatons. Now, in terms of sheer kinetic force, that equals around 215,000,000,000,000, or 215 trillion tons or force. That means Cell achieved an effortless lifting feat of 415 trillion tons, with not as much trouble as he had deflecting Goku's many ki blasts. Also, the blasts in question were planet level plus, making Cell's physical strength peak at a measured level much higher than even Superboy Primes, since he had shrugged of star-busting attacks. He even had a solar system busting kamehameha wave.

No, Goku had to concentrate a second or two because he didn't know where New Namek was, but he was still able to sense the tiny power level of the Namekians. Also, it depends on the power level he's trying to warp to. Goku can't warp to something if he can't feel it's ki. However, even without trying to feel it, Goku's SSJ3 power in the Buu saga was felt from across the entire universe, and that was without Gohan or the Kai's even using ki sense. Goku has also shown no trouble with distance in the entire series. The only time IT hasn't worked was when he needed to warp across galaxies, in a brief fraction of a second with no concentration, while about to be vaporized, in a high-stress situation. Otherwise, he can warp any distance, as proven by him constantly warping back and forth between life and death itself. King Kai just had to point the direction of Namek out to him, and what kind of ki to look for.

Kaguya still warped to other planets.

Goku fought Bills in outer space. Also, when did Broly need oxygen? In fact, he stayed frozen under ice for years with no oxygen, and stayed conscious the whole time. He flew his father and him across galaxies as an infant with no oxygen. He even told his father he would survive if a comet slammed into him and the planet without a ship. Also, again, Vegeta and other Saiyan elites have demonstrated traveling in space without oxygen dozens of times.

All the characters could just grab onto Goku's body, and he would warp them after Cell warped Prime to the red sun. Or before, I guess. It doesn't really matter.

Whenever J'onnz has done something as impressive as Itachi or Shisui's genjutsu's, it has been with prep, and/or research. Itachi and Shisui are the best genjutsu users in Naruto, their genjutsu's haven't been replicated, especially not Shisui's. Itachi's have been struggled against, but the only person who's ever beat them was Sasuke, and only because Itachi specifically allowed him to.

Also, I guess the DBZ char's could stop genjutsu by fluctuating their ki to make it impossible for the caster to manipulate them(similar to the release used against genjutsu), but that's still part of their ki sense, because they don't control their ki physically. However, they could also do it simply because they have a sixth sense for ki, which simply can't be controlled, and which they have displayed the ability to fight with alone.

Originally posted by Quincy
How does prime counter all of the illusionary magic techniques in these verses?

To put it simply, he's immune to magic.

For illusions though, he pretty much can't counter them. He can regenerate from most of them though, other than Infinite Tsukiyomi from Naruto.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yes. If Buu can generate the ki to destroy every dimension, then he can generate the ki to survive that level of destruction. That's why he had up a barrier. Also, Prime didn't survive dimensions crashing into his own. He survived being caught in between dimensions. Something Buu definitely could, considering he doesn't need a power source like Prime does, he can regenerate from less than subatomic particles, and he doesn't need oxygen.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What words? Prime didn't say anything while being flown through Rao. He was just screaming as his flesh melted away.

Also, are you forgetting the speed that they flew through Rao at? They were flying hundreds of thousands of times the speed of light. They were in contact with Rao for about a millionth of a second. The heat from Rao wasn't even what damaged Prime the most, it was the red solar radiation. They didn't experience even near the full heat of the star. It's like when you wave your hand over a flame, and you're hand moves so fast you don't even feel it.

No, that's not enough proof against. lol, you literally just pointed out one example of a dozen, and even admitted Vegeta was also weakened there. That was, in fact, probably the MOST uneven example, considering Vegeta was able to fight on par with Kaioken X3 Goku. In case you forgot, Goku was really weakened too. Either way, if someone is stronger, it's obviously proven that they can hit someone with the full brunt of a blast. Another good example is how Frieza, who was even stronger than Kaioken X20 Goku had to make another blast of his own just to stop Goku's kamehameha, and couldn't just fly away from it. Again, the only times that's ever happened was when the character waving it off was much stronger than the character shooting it, or they had a barrier up. Hell, Prime couldn't shrug off the Monarch's quantum blasts, that are around as strong as Buu tier blast, and that was with several buff's he doesn't have here. Goku and co have blasts stronger than he could block/redirect, and faster than he could fly away from without a warning. He can't fight and dodge at speeds nearly as high as Goku and co, even though his flight speed is comparable to Bills/Whiss.

Idk about the dub, but in the jap version, Cell says, "Hm, a meteor this size would have the entire planet thanking me for their lives. I think I'll give them a good show instead.". And even assuming it to be a simple life-wiping meteor, doing so to several continents, and not just one super continent like the dino-one, it would have to be approximately 15, or even more, km in diameter. And btw, the dinosaur killing meteor that made the Chicxulub crater in Mexico was "AT LEAST 10 km(6mi) in diameter.", not five. Anyway, a meteor that size would yield around 200 million megatons. Not just that, but Cell stopped that effortlessly with one hand. Now, taking average meteor speed into consideration, the lack of deceleration because of the atmosphere, since Cell was in space with it, that size meteor would yield, to Cell's hand, around 215 million megatons. Now, in terms of sheer kinetic force, that equals around 215,000,000,000,000, or 215 trillion tons or force. That means Cell achieved an effortless lifting feat of 415 trillion tons, with not as much trouble as he had deflecting Goku's many ki blasts. Also, the blasts in question were planet level plus, making Cell's physical strength peak at a measured level much higher than even Superboy Primes, since he had shrugged of star-busting attacks. He even had a solar system busting kamehameha wave.

No, Goku had to concentrate a second or two because he didn't know where New Namek was, but he was still able to sense the tiny power level of the Namekians. Also, it depends on the power level he's trying to warp to. Goku can't warp to something if he can't feel it's ki. However, even without trying to feel it, Goku's SSJ3 power in the Buu saga was felt from across the entire universe, and that was without Gohan or the Kai's even using ki sense. Goku has also shown no trouble with distance in the entire series. The only time IT hasn't worked was when he needed to warp across galaxies, in a brief fraction of a second with no concentration, while about to be vaporized, in a high-stress situation. Otherwise, he can warp any distance, as proven by him constantly warping back and forth between life and death itself. King Kai just had to point the direction of Namek out to him, and what kind of ki to look for.

Kaguya still warped to other planets.

Goku fought Bills in outer space. Also, when did Broly need oxygen? In fact, he stayed frozen under ice for years with no oxygen, and stayed conscious the whole time. He flew his father and him across galaxies as an infant with no oxygen. He even told his father he would survive if a comet slammed into him and the planet without a ship. Also, again, Vegeta and other Saiyan elites have demonstrated traveling in space without oxygen dozens of times.

All the characters could just grab onto Goku's body, and he would warp them after Cell warped Prime to the red sun. Or before, I guess. It doesn't really matter.

If they didn't have enough time to feel the heat, then they didn't have enough time to absorb the red radiation. How much radiation would they have taken in in a millionth of a second?

...I pointed out every single example in DBZ in that very paragraph. Broly and Cooler prove that it /can/ work on opponents drastically weakened/weaker. Buu proves that at even levels you can stalemate post impact. Vegeta proves that even if the blast is above your own power, you can still get yourself off of the blast. And he managed to do so a good deal of time before leaving the atmosphere. But SBP will remain stuck in the blast for a far greater distances because..? If you could tell me why Vegeta rolling off a blast >himself doesnt count, you'll have a leg to stand on.

Lifewiping is all we could possibly give it based on everything we know. The only way it can be argued higher is if its speed (nope) or mass can be proven to be at the necessary level. Mmm no. Just take a quick read of the wiki page on effects. A meteor of equal size would have near enough the same effect now as it did then as far as life is concerned. Actually less, as several pages say that a 1km meteor is able to lifewipe. I think we've found our minimum. Also thats some obvious calc inflating and most of it is false. First of all, it was not moving that fast. At all. You can watch the vid so I won't need to explain this further. It may have picked up speed getting closer to Earths gravity, but not at that point. So lets see..

A 1km rock would weigh 1.106e12 kg as per stardestroyer.net.
It took 0.2s for it to cover the ~1m before Cell, the meteor was moving at 5m/s
= 1.3825e13 Joules = 3.304 kilotons needed to stop the movement of this rock

Sorry. Its still Town level strength, which is impressive for DBZ.

And in case you dislike this. Even your own figures don't measure up. 215 mil Mt = 9e23 Joules which is 200 millionth of Earth planet busting force of 2e32 Joules.

Exactly, his sensing limits are so far below Kai's that he had to be guided to pinpoint a planet of noticeable, familiar Ki. Do you even know if his sensing is on that level to suggest any of this? He has stated in the manga and anime that he has a distance limit, so adding that to an unfamiliar energy source lightyears away. And before asking how he managed to get to New Namek, he only did so from King Kai's planet just as he had to return back there before getting to Earth

Was this stated? Because if its dimension hopping, its not taking them to actual locations in space.

Technically given their distance from Earth their would be air, if extremely thin beyond human surviving conditions. As said, in every media its flat out stated they cannot survive in space.

It was more for the ridiculous imagery if I'm honest..

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Whenever J'onnz has done something as impressive as Itachi or Shisui's genjutsu's, it has been with prep, and/or research. Itachi and Shisui are the best genjutsu users in Naruto, their genjutsu's haven't been replicated, especially not Shisui's. Itachi's have been struggled against, but the only person who's ever beat them was Sasuke, and only because Itachi specifically allowed him to.

Also, I guess the DBZ char's could stop genjutsu by fluctuating their ki to make it impossible for the caster to manipulate them(similar to the release used against genjutsu), but that's still part of their ki sense, because they don't control their ki physically. However, they could also do it simply because they have a sixth sense for ki, which simply can't be controlled, and which they have displayed the ability to fight with alone.

Thats the point. The defense was that them using a ki attack would work as a scrambler and break it. Nothing else was supported in threads, so if they have an option, thats it.

Originally posted by BloodRain
If you believe he has the Ki to destroy every dimension, the you do not understand what happened at all.

If they didn't have enough time to feel the heat, then they didn't have enough time to absorb the red radiation. How much radiation would they have taken in in a millionth of a second?

...I pointed out every single example in DBZ in that very paragraph. Broly and Cooler prove that it /can/ work on opponents drastically weakened/weaker. Buu proves that at even levels you can stalemate post impact. Vegeta proves that even if the blast is above your own power, you can still get yourself off of the blast. And he managed to do so a good deal of time before leaving the atmosphere. But SBP will remain stuck in the blast for a far greater distances because..? If you could tell me why Vegeta rolling off a blast >himself doesnt count, you'll have a leg to stand on.

Lifewiping is all we could possibly give it based on everything we know. The only way it can be argued higher is if its speed (nope) or mass can be proven to be at the necessary level. Mmm no. Just take a quick read of the wiki page on effects. A meteor of equal size would have near enough the same effect now as it did then as far as life is concerned. Actually less, as several pages say that a 1km meteor is able to lifewipe. I think we've found our minimum. Also thats some obvious calc inflating and most of it is false. First of all, it was not moving that fast. At all. You can watch the vid so I won't need to explain this further. It may have picked up speed getting closer to Earths gravity, but not at that point. So lets see..

A 1km rock would weigh 1.106e12 kg as per stardestroyer.net.
It took 0.2s for it to cover the ~1m before Cell, the meteor was moving at 5m/s
= 1.3825e13 Joules = 3.304 kilotons needed to stop the movement of this rock

Sorry. Its still Town level strength, which is impressive for DBZ.

And in case you dislike this. Even your own figures don't measure up. 215 mil Mt = 9e23 Joules which is 200 millionth of Earth planet busting force of 2e32 Joules.

Exactly, his sensing limits are so far below Kai's that he had to be guided to pinpoint a planet of noticeable, familiar Ki. Do you even know if his sensing is on that level to suggest any of this? He has stated in the manga and anime that he has a distance limit, so adding that to an unfamiliar energy source lightyears away. And before asking how he managed to get to New Namek, he only did so from King Kai's planet just as he had to return back there before getting to Earth

Was this stated? Because if its dimension hopping, its not taking them to actual locations in space.

Technically given their distance from Earth their would be air, if extremely thin beyond human surviving conditions. As said, in every media its flat out stated they cannot survive in space.

It was more for the ridiculous imagery if I'm honest..

So every time J'onn has messed with anyones mind, its been with prep etc? All the time? Also, what about factoring in those with mental resistance that he has still effected? Thats something Naruto lacks.

Thats the point. The defense was that them using a ki attack would work as a scrambler and break it. Nothing else was supported in threads, so if they have an option, thats it.

He clearly did, if that's the danger he posed. Whether or not it was by a domino effect, just like Prime's. 👆

Not very much, which is why Prime could still use heat vision afterword, and muster the strength the beat Kal-L to death, until Superman of Earth 1 put his happy ass down for the count. However, it was still enough to weaken him to the point where Hal Jordan could hold him alone, whereas he previously flew through the combined 300 mile thick wall of willpower from the entire Green lantern corps.

Prime will stay in the blast, because he did so against weaker ones from Monarch, and that was with the green lantern corp energy, quantum power, and several other buffs he doesn't have here. What don't you get about this?

So your entire argument is that the meteor was smaller, because life-wiping could be due to ash clouds? Are you forgetting about the Dragon Balls? If the Z-fighters saw an ash cloud in the sky, they'd wish it away and it'd be done. However, if an asteroid they didn't know about, because rocks don't have ki, collided with Earth, and destroyed all life, they couldn't do anything about it. Cell knew about the Dragon Balls, and STILL said it would life-wipe. So, since we don't know any of the specifics of the meteor, we factor it out to averages, to find the most logical outcome. We can't go putting words in Cell's mouth, like you're trying to.

1km meteor is not even close to a life-wipe. You're high.

Again, a meteor destroying all life on all separate continents would include sea-life, single-celled organisms, etc. That means it would have to be ON AVERAGE, 15 or even more km. And that's speaking conservatively, considering the Chixaclub meteor was 10 km, and the ash cloud was what killed the dinosaurs, not the initial impact. In fact, a more accurate estimate of ABSOLUTE life-wiping, would be around 20-25 km, at the average speed of meteors, 105,000 mph. That would yield approximately 450 million megatons.

If you wanna just assume it was planet busting, and not simply life-wiping, I'm fine with that. They are two completely different things, you know. Makes sense though, since Cell has deflected planet busters before. That would yield about 110 quadrillion megatons, or around 110,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 110 sextillion tons, making Cell millions of times physically stronger than PC Supe's, or Superboy Prime.

So your argument here is that King Kai's planet is closer to Namek than Earth? That would make it over half as far from Earth as New Namek, still making Goku's limit undefined galaxies away. Again though, if he can sense the ki, he can warp to it. King Kai pointed Namek out to him easily. Also, King Kai can use IT, in case you forgot...

They "dimensions" she warped them to were all different planets, regardless if they were also actually different dimensions as well. However, the kage also managed to reverse summon them back to the real world, proving it WAS a matter of distance.

That's not true. In fact, Goku actually fell through the atmosphere when Bills knocked him out, before going SSJG and absorbing his attack. That proves they were outside of the atmosphere. Also, just want to point out that Bardock, Broly and Vegeta breathing in space were all supported by the Daizenshuu.

Yeah, I know.

Um, no. But when he has done something as impressive as implanting memories, or destroying someones mind, it has been against essentially regular people, or with prep. Also, there are Naruto characters with mental blocks. They are made by genjutsu users, like the one on Pain's summoning body. Or the one Itachi used to make Sasuke shoot ammy at Tobi.

But the point is that the only way they could use a ki attack, is WITH their ki sense. That's because their other senses are being controlled.

Sasuke solos all of them with ganjutsu.

You could add Beerus, Whis and SSJGSSJG Goku and Prime would still stomp.

Prime is simply too fast. Changing the center of the Universe with his bare hands required a strength/speed/durability combination that is PC level. If we take him by his lowest showings and his biggest PIS moment the team would stand indeed a chance. If we go by forum rules and use him to the best of his abilities he just kills most chars here withing the first second.

Goku doesn't even power up for this fight. Goku stomps. Prime is good but Goku is far better.

Yeah Goku should be able to beat Prime too at this point.

Are we including Super or just EoZ?

If we are, Vegeta solos.

Yeah, I made this thread before the DBS phuckery. Goku or Vegeta one-shot Prime at this point.

Lol, Prime actually destroyed a Universe, unlike Beerus and Goku. He also survived an Universal explosion point blank, tanked Antimatter with ease, hurt the AM, changed the center of the Universe with his bare hands, strength and speed. He wins.

Their blows were threatening the universe, and Goku is ~15 times stronger or more now than he was then.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Their blows were threatening the universe, and Goku is ~15 times stronger or more now than he was then.

No, you mean the blows that send a shockwave that gained momentum the longer it traveled. Beerus and Goku didn't donut by themselves.

-Where as Prime took a Universal blast to the face
- Changed the center of the Universe casually
-Took hits from a weapon forged in Heaven from an Angel
-Survived Anti Matter
-flew through multiple red Suns
-Beat the Superman family casually while being weakened

The physics used to explain the Earth's survival being stupid doesn't mean that Beerus and Goku are in any less capacity universe-threatening beings.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The physics used to explain the Earth's survival being stupid doesn't mean that Beerus and Goku are in any less capacity universe-threatening beings.

Can Goku and Beerus casually destroys the Earth single handedly? Yes of course they can. No more proof is needed.

But, the second we start saying there Universe destroyers by ignoring context, then somethings wrong.

Fact of the matter is, Goku's and Beerus punches needed to gained momentum via a wave to become Universal. The two of them didn't just punch and the Universe started collapsing. There Universal threat took both time and extennal forces to achieved that level.